Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rekko 03-27-06, 10:40 PM	Let me introduce myself and my problem, I'm DMing an Eberron campaing and I use psionics. One of my players has a human psychic warrior which has chosen feats to improve his speed and the psionic feat "Up the Walls" which let him walk on vertical flat surfaces. Currently, he can run up a wall at a height of approximativly 200ft in a round. My player then wants to jump and attack a foe under him. The question that we are currently discussing is the fallowing: what would be the bonuses on attack rolls and on damage rolls while attacking in this way? Would there be any skill check or ability check? etc. Thank you for your time Rekko and his player
supernerd8916 03-27-06, 10:41 PM	i think normal falling damage will substitute weapon damage, or +1
rayan4d2 03-27-06, 11:08 PM	I have dealt with a similar character in one of my previous campaign. The falling is how I ruled. It is not RAW. First off, he would suffer normal falling damage from any extreme hieght, and consider if he can travel 200' as a move action, he could never run up more than 100' and still fall on someone as an attack. I then ruled it as a bull rush attack (since it is direct body to body force). It would provoke, but the AoO could not spoil the attack. If the bull rush failed the PC would crash into the creature/or the ground and take full damage from the fall, while the target took half that damage. If the Bull rush succeeded, then the PC takes half, and the target takes full (as the PC has landed squarely on top of that creature. The reason that I am using Bull Rush is that it represents strength, size, and footing, which I feel directly fits this situation. For a far simpler system (as well as a non-suicidal PC) he could run up a 20' wall and Jump off with a DC 15 (Jumping down from a hieght PHB77), landing next to the opponent with a DC 15 (treat a fall as 10' shorter PHB84). If either check fails he takes 1d6 damage from the fall, if they both fail its 2d6. He would then make a normal attack. Now I ruled that the benefits of this tactic (other than style) is +1 to attack (attacking from higher ground PHB151), as well as a house ruled +2 to damage for the downward force. Thats just how I did things, perhaps it can help you.
tarkin 03-28-06, 10:09 AM	+1 is the standard rule for higher ground. If he wants to move up 5ft or even 10, he should get that +1. However, he can get prettty. At the heights we are talking about, falling damage comes into use. I would use the core rules: falling 200 ft does 20d6 to the falling object and the target under the falling object gets a reflex negats save, failure means they take the same amount of damage. Note, anything the faller does to reduce his damage (aside from DR) should also reduce the damage done to the victim. But falling is by defininition not controllable. And the recepient has time to see/hear the faller and move out of the way. The save should be EASY to do, not hard.
KublaiKhan 03-28-06, 10:23 AM	I think that the guy's trying to go for "Cool Points" as it were....being all flashy and cinematic. Nothing wrong with that, if the DM allows it. Being as you're using Eberron, why not take advantage of the action points? Allow 'im to blow an action point to negate his own falling damage from, say, 50' up, provided that he manages the following circumstances: he makes a ranged touch attack roll [ to make sure that he can touch the target after he launches himself from the wall ], a successful jump check [ to reach the square from the wall ] and makes a successful melee attack. Add, say, 1/2 falling damage or whatnot to the attack--the DM knows how cinematic he wants the game to be; the DM can decide what's appropriate. Of course, once he's managed one hyper-cool move like that, he'll be hooked, and probably blow most of his action points on doing that sorta thing. RAW for Eberron limits action points, so this may end up balancing out fairly well. I've been thinking about a feat to allow people to make ridiculous diving charges....not sure how balanced it'll end up being, though. Still considering it.
Rekko 03-28-06, 04:09 PM	Thanks for the many answers. Great ideas from all of you. I think I made a huge vocabulary mistake, my player wants to attack while diving/jumping not falling. I went and checked the Flyby Attack feat (p.303 MM v3.5) which lets a flying creature take a standard action at any point during its move action. I might consider making a feat called Dive Attack which would work just the same allowing the player to make an attack while Diving. But this feat doesn't solve my problem infront of attack and damage bonuses. It is typically a vertical charge (+2 Atk roll, -2 AC, +2 on Str check made to Bull Rush or Overrun, double damage while mounting with a lance, certain piercing melee weapons deal double damage when readied against charging characters). Jumping down lets a character who succeeds a DC15 Jump check take the first 10ft of the fall as non-lethal damage instead of lethal. A successful Tumble check against DC15 reduces the falling damage as if it were 10ft lower The speed of a fall is 150ft/round. The Prionic Power "Catfall" makes the manifester land on his feat no matter how high he falls from and for each power point spent it lets him take less damage as if the fall were 10ft lower. The speed isn't modified and stays at 150ft/round. The Feather Fall spell slows your fall speed to 60ft/round and the spell affected creature takes no damage. As everyone knows, very 10ft fell equals to 1d6 lethal damage taken (to a max of 20d6). Attacking from higher grounds with a melee weapon gives a +1 attack roll bonus. The bull rush action is made to push a foe back. Do not really see how it could apply. Moreover, it's an opposed Str check. Though I like the idea that the victim or the attacker gets half or full falling damage. I would allow a non flat-footed character who still has his bonus to AC (if any) and can still make a move action to make a Reflex save. But against what DC? Or maybe add its Reflex save bonus to its AC..... If there's any impact between the opponents I would make them both fall prone, leaving the attacker with the chance of staying on his feet with a tumble check DC would increase with falling distance (or falling speed). That's all I can think about for now. Rekko action points are good, but I would leave it as a last resort, so a diving attack can be made by anyone. Moreover, I would definitly allow him to spend it so he can get his +1d6 to his d20 roll.
mvincent 03-28-06, 04:20 PM	If he merely acted as a falling object, he could to 1d6 per 10' fallen (to both himself and his target). I would likely treat that as a ranged (touch) attack with an improvised weapon (i.e. -4 to hit, and an additional -2 per 10'). Alternately you could treat it as a regular charge (+2 to hit, -2 to AC) with a height advantage (+1 to hit). Another solution might be to use the diving charge rules from the The Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a) to have the attack deal double damage: "Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed). If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage."
Rekko 03-28-06, 09:38 PM	Interesting, here's where I'm going towards: Attacker makes a DC15 Jump check to see if he takes the first 10ft. as lethal or non-lethal damage. Attacker cast/manifest Feather Fall and/or Catfall as a swift action. Feather Fall negates all falling damage done to attacker and the defender. Attacker makes a touch attack roll with +3 bonus (+2charging, +1 higher grounds) If the weilder hits and is weilding claws, a piercing or slashing weapon, he deals double damage. Attacker makes a DC15 Tumble check to reduce its falling damage by 10ft. If the same Tumble check beat a DC determined by the height (i.e. a DC10 for a 10ft fall, DC25 for a 25ft fall, DC40 for a 40ft fall, you get the point) he doesn't fall prone and can stand up at the end of his attack. If the check fails, he falls prone. The defender must not be moving (attacker can't attack a running character). The defender is allowed a Spot check DC40 and a Listen check of an appropriate DC (DC20 if the attacker is silent, DC15 is attacker is silent but has an armor check penalty, DC10 if attacker isn't silent, does a battle cry for instance, and has no armor check penalty, DC5 if attacker isn't silent and has armor check penalty) to notice the attacker. On success of either skill check, and considering the defender isn't flat-footed, still has his Dex bonus to AC (if any) and can still move in the round, the defender is allowed a Reflex save DC30. If the attacker's attack roll hits, a success on the Ref save halves the falling damage for both the defender and the attacker, on failure the defender takes full falling damage and the attacker takes half damage. If the attack misses, Ref save success negates falling damage for the defender but the attacker takes full damage, failure halves the damage for both the defender and the attacker. If the Reflex save is successful and the attack roll misses, the defender step aside. When the Reflex save is failed and/or the attack roll hits, the defender falls prone at the end of the attack. The defender can ready specific weapons against a charge and deal double damage on sucessful attack roll. If he does so, he is not allowed a Reflex save and receive the faling damage as if he has failed his Reflex save. The attacker is only allowed to use one action point on either his Jump, Tumble or Attack roll. But he isn't in the obligation to use one. I Think I haven't forgotten anything. I will write one or two examples to better illustrate my idea. Feedback anyone? Rekko
Rekko 03-28-06, 10:28 PM	I'm thinking... does the defender has cover from a diving attacker? His torso could cover his legs... The v3.5 rules would give a +4 circumstance bonus to AC for cover which is defined as if the attackers line of sight passes through solid material such as a wall or other characters. In this way, the defender here wouldn't have cover. The v3.0 rules are a bit more complex but allow cover for more circumstances. For instance, in this situation I would give the defender three-quarters cover from a diving attacker granting him a +7 bonus to AC. What's your opinion on the topic? Rekko
Rekko 03-28-06, 10:48 PM	Providing the flowchart on post #8 doesn't change, here are two feats (that may need higher prerequisites) in relation with dive attacks. The first is based on Flyby Attack, the second is something I find interesting, but needs to be considered before using it. Dive Attack The creature can attack while diving. Prerequisite: Skill Focus(Jump), Jump 3 rank, Tumble 3 rank. Benefit: When diving, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature can't take a secnd move action during a round when it makes a dive attack. Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move. Special: A fighter may select this feat as a bonus feat. Improve Dive Attack The creature can attack while diving. Prerequisite: Dive Attack, Skill Focus(Tumble), Jump 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks. Benefit: When making a dive attack, the creature takes half falling damage instead of full falling damage, or no falling damage instead of half falling damage. Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes full or half falling damage depending on the results of her attack roll and the defender's Reflex save. Special: A fighter may select this feat as a bonus feat. Rekko
Sae Cael Oanar 03-29-06, 10:58 AM	The defender must not be moving (attacker can't attack a running character). dnd is turn based, noone moves on other peoples turns. The defender is allowed a Spot check DC40 and a Listen check of an appropriate DC (DC20 if the attacker is silent, DC15 is attacker is silent but has an armor check penalty, DC10 if attacker isn't silent, does a battle cry for instance, and has no armor check penalty, DC5 if attacker isn't silent and has armor check penalty) to notice the attacker. On success of either skill check, and considering the defender isn't flat-footed, still has his Dex bonus to AC (if any) and can still move in the round, the defender is allowed a Reflex save DC30. If the attacker's attack roll hits, a success on the Ref save halves the falling damage for both the defender and the attacker, on failure the defender takes full falling damage and the attacker takes half damage. If the attack misses, Ref save success negates falling damage for the defender but the attacker takes full damage, failure halves the damage for both the defender and the attacker. the force on both the attacker and defender would be the same. i would say both would take half of the falling damage. this whole deal goes back to the not moving on other peoples turns. also the DCs seem arbitrary. if you are going to have the DC be affected by armor check penalty you should have the armor check penalty itself affect it, not -5. this mechanic also seems funky, people's ability to dodge things is already worked into their AC. I suggest you take a look at battle jump in unnaproachable east. its a feat that sounds pretty much exactly like what your character wants to do. there is no need to complicate rules this much.