Attacks and Two-weapon Fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacks and Two-weapon Fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CommanderFalken
08-21-05, 03:19 PM So let me get this straight...

If you fight with two weapons and make a regular attack, you only use one of them, but if you make a full attack, you use both? Is this correct?

I've been playing for a while, but I didn't catch this for a while. Please assist me.http://boards1.wizards.com/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=0&forumid=520#
AramilWindwalker
08-21-05, 03:21 PM precisely
Zedraikis
08-21-05, 03:42 PM I'm not sure what you mean by 'regular attack', but to further clarify, you can only get all of your attacks, whether you wield a single weapon or two, in a full round action. You can move five feet, and only five feet, and still get all of your attacks.

If you do something else that falls under another action, such as moving beyond five feet, charging, standing up after having been tripped, using the spring attack feat, etc., you only get a single attack with your primary hand weapon. Just one.

Hope that helps.
CommanderFalken
08-21-05, 07:39 PM Perfect. Exactly what I was looking for.

As for what I meant by "regular attack", I meant an attack that takes a Standard Action.

Thank you both.
CommanderFalken
08-21-05, 08:15 PM Wait, something else just popped into my head.

So, if you only attack with one weapon on a standard attack, do you not take any penalties for this?

Allow me to give an example:

1st lvl fighter, STR 16
TWF feat, fighting w/ longsword+shortsword

So on a standard attack, he only attacks with his longsword. On a full attack, he attacks with both.

He attacks with his longsword at a +4 bonus (+3 STR, +1 BAB). On a full attack, he attacks with his longsword at a +2 bonus (+3 STR, +1 BAB, -2 TWF) and his shortsword at +2 (as longsword).

If I have this right, I will be slightly ******, as I have been using TWFers incorrectly for a really long time. Ah well.
Carnesire
08-22-05, 12:10 AM wait...when using the spring attack feat u only get one attack? i thought u got to use all of ur attacks aslong as u don't move more than ur speed allows...hmmm

Rick
Tyler Do'Urden
08-22-05, 12:19 AM There's a lot of people that think "weilding two weapons" means "holding a weapon in each hand" regardless of whether you're actually using them or just carrying them.

I personally only apply TWF penalties when you attack with both weapons. I'm just saying that that opinion isn't universal.
Zedraikis
08-22-05, 12:22 AM wait...when using the spring attack feat u only get one attack? i thought u got to use all of ur attacks aslong as u don't move more than ur speed allows...hmmm

Rick
Afraid not.

Spring attack specifically says, 'When using the attack action...' An attack action is a standard action, as said on page 138 of the Player's Handbook: 'The most common type of standard action is an attack - a single melee or ranged attack.'

Most optimizers either go two-weapon fighting OR spring attack because of this, but usually not both.

I, myself, would only choose to go both ways because some characters, such as a two-weapon fighting rogue, may not be able to handle some opponents toe-to-toe, which is where spring attack becomes really helpful. Unfortunately, it's costly in feats.

EDIT: As for the penalties on two-weapon fighting while spring attacking, there's nothing that clarifies whether or not the penalties would still apply. I'd personally rule that they wouldn't. You're merely holding another weapon in your other hand. If you get penalties for that, then you should also get them while holding a shield. So, in my opinion, the penalties only apply when actually using BOTH weapons in combat; specifically, when you're attacking with both weapons ala two-weapon fighting.
Ranger REG
08-22-05, 03:02 AM wait...when using the spring attack feat u only get one attack? i thought u got to use all of ur attacks aslong as u don't move more than ur speed allows...hmmm
With Spring Attack, you can move-then-attack-then-move, much like Ride-By Attack "on foot" and without charging (or a melee variant of Shot on the Run), so long the total distance is not greater than your current speed per round. Without SA, you must decide whether to move before or after you make your attack.

Besides, there is a feat (or perhaps two) that allow you to attack with both your primary and your off-hand weapon as a standard attack action along with your move action, and that is Dual Strike, found in either the Miniatures Handbook and Complete Adventurer.
ClementWillowbreaker
08-22-05, 05:01 PM Full-attacking does not give you extra attack, and neither does holding two weapons. Only by declaring that you are *wielding* two weapons do you

1) get any benefits from using the weapon eg Defending or suffer TWFing penalties
2) threaten with the weapon
3) gain the ability to make an additional attack with it when using the Full-attack action.

If you do it any other way, you get weird inconsistencies. These statements are not reverseable.

As for the Spring attacking issue, you must first choose to weild two weapons or not. If you do, you threaten with both. Choosing to Spring Attack is like a thousand of other things (=everything that is not a Full-attack when TWFing) that don't let you make more than one attack. The benefit of TWFing, taking the penalties, and such is that you threaten with both weapons now. So if you Spring attack past a lich, you can hit him with your Heavy Mace of Smiting, and when you stop next to his Golem ally, you can make an AoO with your Construct-bane Light Mace in the other hand when it moves to get between you and its master. That is just one example of the many times when weilding two weapons as a benefit beyond making additional attacks.
Keenath
08-22-05, 05:11 PM By most standards, you can only "weild" an offhand weapon when you're attacking with it.

Unfortuantely, this makes defending weapons kinda weird.

It's a common houserule to declare that you have to take TWF penalties to use a defending weapon, even if you're using a standard action to attack with just your primary-hand weapon.

That aside:
Say I'm standing here with a magic longsword and an adamantine dagger in my off hand.

I attack with both weapons as a full attack. I take normal TWF penalties.

I attack with only the longsword as a full attack or standard action. I take no penalty.

I attack with only the adamantine dagger (suppose I want to sunder something). I take no penalty.

I make an attack of opportunity. I can strike with either weapon at no penalty. (This is true even if I previously did a full attack with TWF. The penalty doesn't carry on until the next turn, just during your own full attack.)
ClementWillowbreaker
08-23-05, 09:47 PM Uhh, no, TWF penalties apply to all your attack until your next turn. Read the PHB at least.
Zedraikis
08-23-05, 11:46 PM Uhh, no, TWF penalties apply to all your attack until your next turn. Read the PHB at least.
We're talking about when you make a single attack as a standard action while wielding two weapons. At least read the thread before you post pointless gab.
jaelis
08-24-05, 12:24 AM The FAQ clarifies that Keenath is correct. If you are holding two weapons, you can make AoO's with either of them at will.

And despite ClementWillowBreaker's assertion, the TWF penalty never carries over to AoO's anyway. The rule is

... you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand

Presumably, an AoO is not a "regular" attack, since you don't ordinarily get to make one. The language on the off-hand is even more clear, since it refers specifically to the extra attack that you get during your round.

Finally, it is not at all clear that you can combine Dual Strike and Spring Attack. Spring Attack works with the "attack action", presumably the normal attack action outlined in the PHB. Dual Strike allows you to attack with two weapons as a standard action, which isn't necessarily the regular attack action. The FAQ clarifies that you can't use Manyshot with Shot on the Run, I would think this would follow the same reasoning.
Thorak
08-24-05, 01:24 AM There's a lot of people that think "weilding two weapons" means "holding a weapon in each hand" regardless of whether you're actually using them or just carrying them.

I personally only apply TWF penalties when you attack with both weapons. I'm just saying that that opinion isn't universal.
As someone who's weighed in heavily in the debate on what, exactly, TWF is, here's my beef.

"Wielding" isn't defined in D&D. The english-language definition of the word is an active-use term; you can't be wielding something you're passively holding. So, I see no reason why the word has a special meaning, i.e. "in-hand" or "held", since there's never any special definition given.

This means that you're only wielding a weapon you're actively using. Say, to attack with. Or to get the defensive bonuses from, from TWD or a Defending weapon.

So yes, if you've got both your weapons in your hands, and you only get a Standard action, you can choose to only be wielding the one weapon you attack with, and not take TWF penalties. This also means you're not getting any benefit for the second weapon, like two-weapon defense or using it as a Defending weapon, either. Because you're not actively using it.

This much, at least, seems clear to me, from what "wield" actually means. It's when we get into whether wielding or making the extra attack causes the TWF penalties that we really get into trouble; my interpretation says that wielding does, so getting the benefit from a Defending off-hand weapon imposes the TWF penalties on your primary weapon. The other possibility is that you can get the AC bonus without any penalty, as long as you don't attack. AFAICT, there's no obvious way to determine which is more "right", but I'll argue till I'm blue in the face that my interpretation is more consistent and raises fewer questions. But that's another thread.
Tyler Do'Urden
08-24-05, 03:48 AM Dude... did you just agree with me?

Are you okay? Maybe you should lie down. Chug some 'tussin.

Maybe I misread the post. Hmm... nope, you basically described exactly how I feel about TWFing.

That's it, I'm calling Dr. Weird and we're going to get this whole thing sorted out ASAP. Don't try to operate any heavy machinery 'til I get back.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CommanderFalken 08-21-05, 03:19 PM	So let me get this straight... If you fight with two weapons and make a regular attack, you only use one of them, but if you make a full attack, you use both? Is this correct? I've been playing for a while, but I didn't catch this for a while. Please assist me.http://boards1.wizards.com/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=0&forumid=520#
AramilWindwalker 08-21-05, 03:21 PM	precisely
Zedraikis 08-21-05, 03:42 PM	I'm not sure what you mean by 'regular attack', but to further clarify, you can only get all of your attacks, whether you wield a single weapon or two, in a full round action. You can move five feet, and only five feet, and still get all of your attacks. If you do something else that falls under another action, such as moving beyond five feet, charging, standing up after having been tripped, using the spring attack feat, etc., you only get a single attack with your primary hand weapon. Just one. Hope that helps.
CommanderFalken 08-21-05, 07:39 PM	Perfect. Exactly what I was looking for. As for what I meant by "regular attack", I meant an attack that takes a Standard Action. Thank you both.
CommanderFalken 08-21-05, 08:15 PM	Wait, something else just popped into my head. So, if you only attack with one weapon on a standard attack, do you not take any penalties for this? Allow me to give an example: 1st lvl fighter, STR 16 TWF feat, fighting w/ longsword+shortsword So on a standard attack, he only attacks with his longsword. On a full attack, he attacks with both. He attacks with his longsword at a +4 bonus (+3 STR, +1 BAB). On a full attack, he attacks with his longsword at a +2 bonus (+3 STR, +1 BAB, -2 TWF) and his shortsword at +2 (as longsword). If I have this right, I will be slightly ******, as I have been using TWFers incorrectly for a really long time. Ah well.
Carnesire 08-22-05, 12:10 AM	wait...when using the spring attack feat u only get one attack? i thought u got to use all of ur attacks aslong as u don't move more than ur speed allows...hmmm Rick
Tyler Do'Urden 08-22-05, 12:19 AM	There's a lot of people that think "weilding two weapons" means "holding a weapon in each hand" regardless of whether you're actually using them or just carrying them. I personally only apply TWF penalties when you attack with both weapons. I'm just saying that that opinion isn't universal.
Zedraikis 08-22-05, 12:22 AM	wait...when using the spring attack feat u only get one attack? i thought u got to use all of ur attacks aslong as u don't move more than ur speed allows...hmmm Rick Afraid not. Spring attack specifically says, 'When using the attack action...' An attack action is a standard action, as said on page 138 of the Player's Handbook: 'The most common type of standard action is an attack - a single melee or ranged attack.' Most optimizers either go two-weapon fighting OR spring attack because of this, but usually not both. I, myself, would only choose to go both ways because some characters, such as a two-weapon fighting rogue, may not be able to handle some opponents toe-to-toe, which is where spring attack becomes really helpful. Unfortunately, it's costly in feats. EDIT: As for the penalties on two-weapon fighting while spring attacking, there's nothing that clarifies whether or not the penalties would still apply. I'd personally rule that they wouldn't. You're merely holding another weapon in your other hand. If you get penalties for that, then you should also get them while holding a shield. So, in my opinion, the penalties only apply when actually using BOTH weapons in combat; specifically, when you're attacking with both weapons ala two-weapon fighting.
Ranger REG 08-22-05, 03:02 AM	wait...when using the spring attack feat u only get one attack? i thought u got to use all of ur attacks aslong as u don't move more than ur speed allows...hmmm With Spring Attack, you can move-then-attack-then-move, much like Ride-By Attack "on foot" and without charging (or a melee variant of Shot on the Run), so long the total distance is not greater than your current speed per round. Without SA, you must decide whether to move before or after you make your attack. Besides, there is a feat (or perhaps two) that allow you to attack with both your primary and your off-hand weapon as a standard attack action along with your move action, and that is Dual Strike, found in either the Miniatures Handbook and Complete Adventurer.
ClementWillowbreaker 08-22-05, 05:01 PM	Full-attacking does not give you extra attack, and neither does holding two weapons. Only by declaring that you are wielding two weapons do you 1) get any benefits from using the weapon eg Defending or suffer TWFing penalties 2) threaten with the weapon 3) gain the ability to make an additional attack with it when using the Full-attack action. If you do it any other way, you get weird inconsistencies. These statements are not reverseable. As for the Spring attacking issue, you must first choose to weild two weapons or not. If you do, you threaten with both. Choosing to Spring Attack is like a thousand of other things (=everything that is not a Full-attack when TWFing) that don't let you make more than one attack. The benefit of TWFing, taking the penalties, and such is that you threaten with both weapons now. So if you Spring attack past a lich, you can hit him with your Heavy Mace of Smiting, and when you stop next to his Golem ally, you can make an AoO with your Construct-bane Light Mace in the other hand when it moves to get between you and its master. That is just one example of the many times when weilding two weapons as a benefit beyond making additional attacks.
Keenath 08-22-05, 05:11 PM	By most standards, you can only "weild" an offhand weapon when you're attacking with it. Unfortuantely, this makes defending weapons kinda weird. It's a common houserule to declare that you have to take TWF penalties to use a defending weapon, even if you're using a standard action to attack with just your primary-hand weapon. That aside: Say I'm standing here with a magic longsword and an adamantine dagger in my off hand. I attack with both weapons as a full attack. I take normal TWF penalties. I attack with only the longsword as a full attack or standard action. I take no penalty. I attack with only the adamantine dagger (suppose I want to sunder something). I take no penalty. I make an attack of opportunity. I can strike with either weapon at no penalty. (This is true even if I previously did a full attack with TWF. The penalty doesn't carry on until the next turn, just during your own full attack.)
ClementWillowbreaker 08-23-05, 09:47 PM	Uhh, no, TWF penalties apply to all your attack until your next turn. Read the PHB at least.
Zedraikis 08-23-05, 11:46 PM	Uhh, no, TWF penalties apply to all your attack until your next turn. Read the PHB at least. We're talking about when you make a single attack as a standard action while wielding two weapons. At least read the thread before you post pointless gab.
jaelis 08-24-05, 12:24 AM	The FAQ clarifies that Keenath is correct. If you are holding two weapons, you can make AoO's with either of them at will. And despite ClementWillowBreaker's assertion, the TWF penalty never carries over to AoO's anyway. The rule is ... you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand Presumably, an AoO is not a "regular" attack, since you don't ordinarily get to make one. The language on the off-hand is even more clear, since it refers specifically to the extra attack that you get during your round. Finally, it is not at all clear that you can combine Dual Strike and Spring Attack. Spring Attack works with the "attack action", presumably the normal attack action outlined in the PHB. Dual Strike allows you to attack with two weapons as a standard action, which isn't necessarily the regular attack action. The FAQ clarifies that you can't use Manyshot with Shot on the Run, I would think this would follow the same reasoning.
Thorak 08-24-05, 01:24 AM	There's a lot of people that think "weilding two weapons" means "holding a weapon in each hand" regardless of whether you're actually using them or just carrying them. I personally only apply TWF penalties when you attack with both weapons. I'm just saying that that opinion isn't universal. As someone who's weighed in heavily in the debate on what, exactly, TWF is, here's my beef. "Wielding" isn't defined in D&D. The english-language definition of the word is an active-use term; you can't be wielding something you're passively holding. So, I see no reason why the word has a special meaning, i.e. "in-hand" or "held", since there's never any special definition given. This means that you're only wielding a weapon you're actively using. Say, to attack with. Or to get the defensive bonuses from, from TWD or a Defending weapon. So yes, if you've got both your weapons in your hands, and you only get a Standard action, you can choose to only be wielding the one weapon you attack with, and not take TWF penalties. This also means you're not getting any benefit for the second weapon, like two-weapon defense or using it as a Defending weapon, either. Because you're not actively using it. This much, at least, seems clear to me, from what "wield" actually means. It's when we get into whether wielding or making the extra attack causes the TWF penalties that we really get into trouble; my interpretation says that wielding does, so getting the benefit from a Defending off-hand weapon imposes the TWF penalties on your primary weapon. The other possibility is that you can get the AC bonus without any penalty, as long as you don't attack. AFAICT, there's no obvious way to determine which is more "right", but I'll argue till I'm blue in the face that my interpretation is more consistent and raises fewer questions. But that's another thread.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-24-05, 03:48 AM	Dude... did you just agree with me? Are you okay? Maybe you should lie down. Chug some 'tussin. Maybe I misread the post. Hmm... nope, you basically described exactly how I feel about TWFing. That's it, I'm calling Dr. Weird and we're going to get this whole thing sorted out ASAP. Don't try to operate any heavy machinery 'til I get back.