Attacks of Oportunity just DON'T make sense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacks of Oportunity just DON'T make sense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GEEKAZOID
08-07-05, 11:08 PM Rorzok, a first level wizard gets caught up in melee combat.
He attacks the goblin in front of him with his dagger. He only has enough knowledge of combat to poke him once in the head. He doesn't get ANY bonus to hit.

But then another goblin rushes past, right through his threatened space.
SUDDENLY Rorzok is able to break away from the one goblin occupying all of the wizard's pitiful martial attention, and gain a SECOND attack to devote to a moving object just because it moved by him. :confused:

Buzz is a sixth level fighter. Buzz is feeling confident with the second attack per round he has gained after leveling up. Right now he is pitted against an ogre who is spurting mucus and obscenities in his face. Wisely, Buzz chooses to take a full-round action and use both attacks gainst the beasty. He wishes he had more, but he is only a 6th level fighter and two attacks represent the pinacle of his current martial skills.

But then the goblin runs through Buzz's threatned area and suddenly Buzz has mustered the talent for ANOTHER attack within a round fully consumed by a full-round action! And he doesn't even use it against the ogre! It's the darned GOBLIN that gets the whacking! :confused:

"Excuse me Mr. Ogre sir, while I take this oportunity to turn around to my left (please be kind and not hit me while my back is turned) to stab at the little pest of a goblin here. Thank you."

:uh-huh: Am I missing something?
MystErikEry
08-07-05, 11:20 PM You're missing the fact that when you make an attack roll, it is not representative of a single swing.

An attack is an opportunity to actually inflict damage. In combat, characters are constantly weaving, dodging, and attempting to damage the enemy.

Your attack roll represents an attack that actually might do some damage, so a trained fighter can get multiple such attacks (if he puts his all into it). When someone moves through a threatened space, the attack of opportunity is obtained not "magically" or somesuch, but because the provoking creature is distracted enough from the attacker that the attacker is able to possibly get an attack through.

Thus, when a spellcaster starts casting a spell, his concentration is on the spell - and thus he provokes an attack of opportunity. He doesn't make the enemies suddenly better at attacking, or give them extra attacks, he simply lowers his own defenses, meaning that all those attacks he would otherwise knock away with his own dagger and quick reflexes actually have a chance of damaging him --- unless he can still manage to dodge while distracted (Dex, etc.) or the opponent fails to hit during this chance...
GEEKAZOID
08-07-05, 11:38 PM You're missing the fact that when you make an attack roll, it is not representative of a single swing....In combat, characters are constantly weaving, dodging, and attempting to damage the enemy...Your attack roll represents an attack that actually might do some damage,..
OK,

Buzz trades 12 blows, maybe 20 with ogre. As a 6th level fighter only two are ever capable of damage. And it takes Buzz's full attenton to manage that much.

But then all of a sudden he can possibly land THREE damaging blows just because the goblin ran past.

It just makes less sense now.
MystErikEry
08-07-05, 11:41 PM The goblin that runs past is not spending its whole time trying to dodge the Fighter's blows - this gives the fighter the opportunity to strike a blow that might inflict damage.

The Fighter doesn't suddenly get better, he just takes an opportunity when an opponent is distrated to try to make one of his attacks (as he's actually attacking constantly everything that's in his Threat range) actually damage the enemy.

The iterative attacks are benefits of highly trained fighters, who are able to break through an enemy's guard even when the enemy isn't distracted by something else (such as traveling through threatened areas, casting a spell, drawing something from his backpack, standing from prone, or whatever else).
Rulebook
08-07-05, 11:43 PM shhh, you might spoil the idea of two guys with swords, each taking turns poking at each other once every six seconds, while standing like statues!
GEEKAZOID
08-07-05, 11:52 PM The goblin that runs past is not spending its whole time trying to dodge the Fighter's blows - this gives the fighter the opportunity to strike a blow that might inflict damage. But the FIGHTER is spending his entire round attacking the ogre. Full-attack action. Does he even NOTICE the goblin?

If the ogre slips up, I can understand an extra attack on him. That's who the fighter is focusing his entire round on. But turning to another target? If nobody oves through his threat area he is not good enough to damage more than twice. But when someone does, he can suddenly divert to multiple targets after previously using both chances for one target.

Why doesn't the ogre get an AoO against the fighter for attacking the goblin?when a spellcaster starts casting a spell, his concentration is on the spell - and thus he provokes an attack of opportunity. When Buzz attacks the goblin, his concentration is on the goblin not on the ogre.
Shy_Guy
08-07-05, 11:54 PM OK,

The fighter has only enough skill to possibly land TWO damaging blows. But then all of a sudden he can possibly land THREE damaging blows.

Yes and No. He has the ability to possibly land two blows and one AoO. If he was level twelve, he would have the skill to land three blows and one AoO. Remember that the fighter is constantly swinging and attacking his immediate foe but if given the opportunity, he WILL take a swipe at another foe who is trying to zip by unnoticed. Keep in mind also that he only gets one AoO per round.
GEEKAZOID
08-08-05, 12:09 AM shhh, you might spoil the idea of two guys with swords, each taking turns poking at each other once every six seconds, while standing like statues!
:tongue: Yes, it is lame how the combat round reduces action to have that appearance.
GEEKAZOID
08-08-05, 12:18 AM He has the ability to possibly land two blows and one AoO.Hmm...so simple yet.... :P
:tiphat:
GEEKAZOID
08-08-05, 12:25 AM But wait a minute!
What about the full round action?
Doesn't the nature of a full round action make it impossible to have an AoO in the same round?
MystErikEry
08-08-05, 12:25 AM A full-round action doesn't preclude free/swift actions (such as taking attacks of opportunity, talking, or whatever else). It just means you're doing that thing for the whole round, as opposed to moving and doing something else (so you're spending the six seconds attacking without moving more than about 5' or so (movement inside your "square") rather than moving 30' or so and then attacking). ^_^
Kojiro James
08-08-05, 12:29 AM shhh, you might spoil the idea of two guys with swords, each taking turns poking at each other once every six seconds, while standing like statues!

This made me burst out laughing.
FlameLover
08-08-05, 12:44 AM An AoO can be a mere flick of the wrist, it isn't turning around and attacking its just swing the sword around in there direction as you fight the 'other' guy.

If you remember that everything is always moving and changing then AoOs make perfect sense to me. A good fighter will hit twice and if someone runs past while he's doing that he'll just swing the sword around, hitting it and then hitting the 'other' guy :dancin:
Inigo Carmine
08-08-05, 02:01 AM The idea of an Attack of Opportunity is that it doesn't divert your attention much. It isn't that you're putting out extra effort and making an extra attack, it's that said foe has done something stupid and is no longer defending himself against you.

Imagine a professional heavyweight boxing match. Two boxers are going at it fast and furious. Then all of the sudden, in the middle of the fight (while his opponent is still punching at him) one of the boxers drops his guard, pulls out a can of coke, opens it up, and proceeds to chug it down. That's what an AoO is.

Don't you think the other boxer (the one not cugging down a soda in the middle of the boxing ring) now has a good chance at landing a telling blow? That's because he got to make an Attack of Opportunity.
jaerad
08-08-05, 02:28 AM The idea of an Attack of Opportunity is that it doesn't divert your attention much. It isn't that you're putting out extra effort and making an extra attack, it's that said foe has done something stupid and is no longer defending himself against you.

Imagine a professional heavyweight boxing match. Two boxers are going at it fast and furious. Then all of the sudden, in the middle of the fight (while his opponent is still punching at him) one of the boxers drops his guard, pulls out a can of coke, opens it up, and proceeds to chug it down. That's what an AoO is.

Don't you think the other boxer (the one not cugging down a soda in the middle of the boxing ring) now has a good chance at landing a telling blow? That's because he got to make an Attack of Opportunity.

Ya, but this isn't the situation in question. The OP agrees that it makes sense to get an extra swing at your opponent when they're distracted, but why do you get to twack any/everyone else in range when the generate AoOs?

Following your setup, it would be more alike to the ref moving by (so you KO him), the cut swabby dude coming into the ring (and you KO him as well), etc.

I think I get what he's talking about, and to an extent I agree. If you're concentrating on one opponent, getting free swings at passerbys seems counterproductive. At least, in a real world sense. It seems like your opponent would get an AoO from you because you're distracted.
Majick
08-08-05, 02:41 AM Look, the fact is that an attack of opportunity is just that: an opportunistic attack made against an opponent who has (for whatever reason) let their gaurds down. This does not meen you are getting an 'extra' attack per say, it simply meens that during the swirling melle chaos that would ensue after, say, a battle with an ogre as originally described in the first post, that someone charging past you would present such an opportunity (and you as a person of at least enough intelligence to swing a sword) would realise this because you *gasp* have your eyes open for such things in combat? OF COURSE YOU DO! Even someone with little to no training could see an easy shot at an un-gaurded opponent :) the fact that you are already involved in combat meens nothing, because the attack of opportunity is a time when you have enough space to make such said attack, otherwise attacks of opportunity would ALSO provoke attacks of opportunity.
Lord Schpungus
08-08-05, 02:45 AM The boxer is (usually) only concerned about KOing one person, his Only Enemy in the ring. It'd be a different story if Jimmy the Snitch, another Enemy of Boxy McBoxeroo, decided he was going to walk right next to the fight. Boxy would sure as heck kick Jimmy's scrawny little stool-pidgeon neck.
Vaelan
08-08-05, 05:28 AM Finding openings is what makes a full attack action take up an entire round.

Since you are not required to find an opening in the defenses of the person who provoked an AoO, as the provoker has graciously provided one, it takes practically no time to make an attack directed towards them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GEEKAZOID 08-07-05, 11:08 PM	Rorzok, a first level wizard gets caught up in melee combat. He attacks the goblin in front of him with his dagger. He only has enough knowledge of combat to poke him once in the head. He doesn't get ANY bonus to hit. But then another goblin rushes past, right through his threatened space. SUDDENLY Rorzok is able to break away from the one goblin occupying all of the wizard's pitiful martial attention, and gain a SECOND attack to devote to a moving object just because it moved by him. :confused: Buzz is a sixth level fighter. Buzz is feeling confident with the second attack per round he has gained after leveling up. Right now he is pitted against an ogre who is spurting mucus and obscenities in his face. Wisely, Buzz chooses to take a full-round action and use both attacks gainst the beasty. He wishes he had more, but he is only a 6th level fighter and two attacks represent the pinacle of his current martial skills. But then the goblin runs through Buzz's threatned area and suddenly Buzz has mustered the talent for ANOTHER attack within a round fully consumed by a full-round action! And he doesn't even use it against the ogre! It's the darned GOBLIN that gets the whacking! :confused: "Excuse me Mr. Ogre sir, while I take this oportunity to turn around to my left (please be kind and not hit me while my back is turned) to stab at the little pest of a goblin here. Thank you." :uh-huh: Am I missing something?
MystErikEry 08-07-05, 11:20 PM	You're missing the fact that when you make an attack roll, it is not representative of a single swing. An attack is an opportunity to actually inflict damage. In combat, characters are constantly weaving, dodging, and attempting to damage the enemy. Your attack roll represents an attack that actually might do some damage, so a trained fighter can get multiple such attacks (if he puts his all into it). When someone moves through a threatened space, the attack of opportunity is obtained not "magically" or somesuch, but because the provoking creature is distracted enough from the attacker that the attacker is able to possibly get an attack through. Thus, when a spellcaster starts casting a spell, his concentration is on the spell - and thus he provokes an attack of opportunity. He doesn't make the enemies suddenly better at attacking, or give them extra attacks, he simply lowers his own defenses, meaning that all those attacks he would otherwise knock away with his own dagger and quick reflexes actually have a chance of damaging him --- unless he can still manage to dodge while distracted (Dex, etc.) or the opponent fails to hit during this chance...
GEEKAZOID 08-07-05, 11:38 PM	You're missing the fact that when you make an attack roll, it is not representative of a single swing....In combat, characters are constantly weaving, dodging, and attempting to damage the enemy...Your attack roll represents an attack that actually might do some damage,.. OK, Buzz trades 12 blows, maybe 20 with ogre. As a 6th level fighter only two are ever capable of damage. And it takes Buzz's full attenton to manage that much. But then all of a sudden he can possibly land THREE damaging blows just because the goblin ran past. It just makes less sense now.
MystErikEry 08-07-05, 11:41 PM	The goblin that runs past is not spending its whole time trying to dodge the Fighter's blows - this gives the fighter the opportunity to strike a blow that might inflict damage. The Fighter doesn't suddenly get better, he just takes an opportunity when an opponent is distrated to try to make one of his attacks (as he's actually attacking constantly everything that's in his Threat range) actually damage the enemy. The iterative attacks are benefits of highly trained fighters, who are able to break through an enemy's guard even when the enemy isn't distracted by something else (such as traveling through threatened areas, casting a spell, drawing something from his backpack, standing from prone, or whatever else).
Rulebook 08-07-05, 11:43 PM	shhh, you might spoil the idea of two guys with swords, each taking turns poking at each other once every six seconds, while standing like statues!
GEEKAZOID 08-07-05, 11:52 PM	The goblin that runs past is not spending its whole time trying to dodge the Fighter's blows - this gives the fighter the opportunity to strike a blow that might inflict damage. But the FIGHTER is spending his entire round attacking the ogre. Full-attack action. Does he even NOTICE the goblin? If the ogre slips up, I can understand an extra attack on him. That's who the fighter is focusing his entire round on. But turning to another target? If nobody oves through his threat area he is not good enough to damage more than twice. But when someone does, he can suddenly divert to multiple targets after previously using both chances for one target. Why doesn't the ogre get an AoO against the fighter for attacking the goblin?when a spellcaster starts casting a spell, his concentration is on the spell - and thus he provokes an attack of opportunity. When Buzz attacks the goblin, his concentration is on the goblin not on the ogre.
Shy_Guy 08-07-05, 11:54 PM	OK, The fighter has only enough skill to possibly land TWO damaging blows. But then all of a sudden he can possibly land THREE damaging blows. Yes and No. He has the ability to possibly land two blows and one AoO. If he was level twelve, he would have the skill to land three blows and one AoO. Remember that the fighter is constantly swinging and attacking his immediate foe but if given the opportunity, he WILL take a swipe at another foe who is trying to zip by unnoticed. Keep in mind also that he only gets one AoO per round.
GEEKAZOID 08-08-05, 12:09 AM	shhh, you might spoil the idea of two guys with swords, each taking turns poking at each other once every six seconds, while standing like statues! :tongue: Yes, it is lame how the combat round reduces action to have that appearance.
GEEKAZOID 08-08-05, 12:18 AM	He has the ability to possibly land two blows and one AoO.Hmm...so simple yet.... :P :tiphat:
GEEKAZOID 08-08-05, 12:25 AM	But wait a minute! What about the full round action? Doesn't the nature of a full round action make it impossible to have an AoO in the same round?
MystErikEry 08-08-05, 12:25 AM	A full-round action doesn't preclude free/swift actions (such as taking attacks of opportunity, talking, or whatever else). It just means you're doing that thing for the whole round, as opposed to moving and doing something else (so you're spending the six seconds attacking without moving more than about 5' or so (movement inside your "square") rather than moving 30' or so and then attacking). ^_^
Kojiro James 08-08-05, 12:29 AM	shhh, you might spoil the idea of two guys with swords, each taking turns poking at each other once every six seconds, while standing like statues! This made me burst out laughing.
FlameLover 08-08-05, 12:44 AM	An AoO can be a mere flick of the wrist, it isn't turning around and attacking its just swing the sword around in there direction as you fight the 'other' guy. If you remember that everything is always moving and changing then AoOs make perfect sense to me. A good fighter will hit twice and if someone runs past while he's doing that he'll just swing the sword around, hitting it and then hitting the 'other' guy :dancin:
Inigo Carmine 08-08-05, 02:01 AM	The idea of an Attack of Opportunity is that it doesn't divert your attention much. It isn't that you're putting out extra effort and making an extra attack, it's that said foe has done something stupid and is no longer defending himself against you. Imagine a professional heavyweight boxing match. Two boxers are going at it fast and furious. Then all of the sudden, in the middle of the fight (while his opponent is still punching at him) one of the boxers drops his guard, pulls out a can of coke, opens it up, and proceeds to chug it down. That's what an AoO is. Don't you think the other boxer (the one not cugging down a soda in the middle of the boxing ring) now has a good chance at landing a telling blow? That's because he got to make an Attack of Opportunity.
jaerad 08-08-05, 02:28 AM	The idea of an Attack of Opportunity is that it doesn't divert your attention much. It isn't that you're putting out extra effort and making an extra attack, it's that said foe has done something stupid and is no longer defending himself against you. Imagine a professional heavyweight boxing match. Two boxers are going at it fast and furious. Then all of the sudden, in the middle of the fight (while his opponent is still punching at him) one of the boxers drops his guard, pulls out a can of coke, opens it up, and proceeds to chug it down. That's what an AoO is. Don't you think the other boxer (the one not cugging down a soda in the middle of the boxing ring) now has a good chance at landing a telling blow? That's because he got to make an Attack of Opportunity. Ya, but this isn't the situation in question. The OP agrees that it makes sense to get an extra swing at your opponent when they're distracted, but why do you get to twack any/everyone else in range when the generate AoOs? Following your setup, it would be more alike to the ref moving by (so you KO him), the cut swabby dude coming into the ring (and you KO him as well), etc. I think I get what he's talking about, and to an extent I agree. If you're concentrating on one opponent, getting free swings at passerbys seems counterproductive. At least, in a real world sense. It seems like your opponent would get an AoO from you because you're distracted.
Majick 08-08-05, 02:41 AM	Look, the fact is that an attack of opportunity is just that: an opportunistic attack made against an opponent who has (for whatever reason) let their gaurds down. This does not meen you are getting an 'extra' attack per say, it simply meens that during the swirling melle chaos that would ensue after, say, a battle with an ogre as originally described in the first post, that someone charging past you would present such an opportunity (and you as a person of at least enough intelligence to swing a sword) would realise this because you gasp have your eyes open for such things in combat? OF COURSE YOU DO! Even someone with little to no training could see an easy shot at an un-gaurded opponent :) the fact that you are already involved in combat meens nothing, because the attack of opportunity is a time when you have enough space to make such said attack, otherwise attacks of opportunity would ALSO provoke attacks of opportunity.
Lord Schpungus 08-08-05, 02:45 AM	The boxer is (usually) only concerned about KOing one person, his Only Enemy in the ring. It'd be a different story if Jimmy the Snitch, another Enemy of Boxy McBoxeroo, decided he was going to walk right next to the fight. Boxy would sure as heck kick Jimmy's scrawny little stool-pidgeon neck.
Vaelan 08-08-05, 05:28 AM	Finding openings is what makes a full attack action take up an entire round. Since you are not required to find an opening in the defenses of the person who provoked an AoO, as the provoker has graciously provided one, it takes practically no time to make an attack directed towards them.