Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UmbralKnight 09-16-06, 04:24 AM	Should speed be a factor against AoO? Here is a scenario; a character capable of moving at a speed of 1035 feet per round (not even running) is facing off against your typical large spiked chain combat reflexes AoO fighter. Now, normally, our big ol' chain swinger would get a nice lot of AoO against anyone who moves through his space to attack him. But, consider it from his point of view. He's got a guy coming at him at a rediculous speed. Is it even physically possible for him to be able to get more than one attack before our speed freak is in his face? The swing of the chain would need time to come full circle, would it not? Im in a bit of a conundrum here. Any thoughts?
Nom 09-16-06, 06:10 AM	What do you mean "more than one"? A given character only provokes one AoO for moving from any given opponent per turn, regardless of how many squares they move (PH pg 138). I think your question is a non-issue.
Rulebook 09-16-06, 07:05 AM	i just want to know how he got over 1000' a round without even running.
Dalthbar 09-16-06, 08:20 AM	i just want to know how he got over 1000' a round without even running. My first guess is that it's by ignoring that bonuses of the same type don't stack: Haste + Boots of Speed + Monk's speed increase, etc. The only other way, that I can think of, would be custom items. The thought of moving 200ish feet each second seems... insane to me.
ShinAkuma2 09-16-06, 08:21 AM	What do you mean "more than one"? A given character only provokes one AoO for moving from any given opponent per turn, regardless of how many squares they move (PH pg 138). I think your question is a non-issue. This is true, but not at the heart of the discussion. He's asking how someone could possibly react in time to hit someone who moves that fast. The answer is: Hopefully, if he's fighting someone with the hundreds of Monk levels this guy'd have to have, he himself is Epic enough that his senses can compensate, ie, he doesn't need to dodge bullets.
Thiez 09-16-06, 10:44 AM	Better think about introducing a Speed bonus to AC :D Like, the guy's running around with ridiculous speed. You could try and swing your sword at him, but you're unlikely to hit.
runestar 09-16-06, 10:55 AM	But if he does run into the sword, it is going to hurt a lot...;)
UmbralKnight 09-16-06, 11:12 AM	My first guess is that it's by ignoring that bonuses of the same type don't stack: Haste + Boots of Speed + Monk's speed increase, etc. The only other way, that I can think of, would be custom items. The thought of moving 200ish feet each second seems... insane to me. Insane yes, but not ignoring stacking rules. This character is a vampire monk, built using non WoC material. His base speed is 115 ft. (from two bonuses that do stack), and he has some vampiric ability that allows him to move at 9x his regular speed. I fell of my chair when I did the math for this guy. But it opens up a whole lot of question on how one can even interact with someone so depressingly fast...:confused:
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-16-06, 11:48 AM	Interact with him? Easy. Set his character sheet on fire (or his computer, if he keeps sheets electronically) and instruct him to rebuild it by WotC rules if he's going to be playing with characters that do likewise.
Damionte 09-16-06, 02:20 PM	I wouldn't adress it at all. you're using outside material and trying to figure out why it doesn't make snese in the context of the main game. If the designers of the ability didn't think to give it an Ac bonus then he doesn't get one. Make sure the guy takes ranks in tumble and he'll have no trouble with ell spiko-chain guy. And with his insane amount of movement, he can easily afford to move at half speed to tumble.
KmartKommando 09-17-06, 12:08 AM	A situation like that came up on Eureka on SciFi. This guy moving really fast (like the Flash speeds) tried to charge the main character, who pulled a baseball out of his pocket and threw it at where the guy started. Beaned him right in the face at normal throw speed + 100mph or more run speed. :gah:
fatal error 09-17-06, 02:17 AM	This is true, but not at the heart of the discussion. Actually, it is the heart of the discussion. The OP is asking how the Spiked Chain gets multiple AoOs, not how it gets any at all. And it does, in fact, not get multiple AoOs just off movement.
UmbralKnight 09-17-06, 02:22 AM	False. The example is off, but the principle is the same. But have a :cookie:
Dire Celestial Bonobo 09-17-06, 08:31 PM	But it opens up a whole lot of question on how one can even interact with someone so depressingly fast. The character is moving at a little under 120mph, so much the same way one might interact with a guy on a fast motorbike. The easy way to rule it is simply that an enemy has much less time to set up an AoO, but since all he really needs to do is throw the weapon out there and let the character run into it, that's fine and it all evens out.
Dalthbar 09-17-06, 10:37 PM	Given the nature of the rules, he's simply "moving really fast" but we can't really assume any detriment to other characters. If we did give them a penalty to hit, then this is equivalent to a bonus to his AC due to the speed. In addition to that, it would make sense that when they're hit while moving that you do X times more damage due to the additional momentum that he has. But all of this is fluff and can make a huge mess out of the whole thing. I'd just throw down the age old "the rules don't offer anything to adjust your AC while moving fast, thus it's treated the same". I have to agree that if you're adding non-core materials (a 9x speed bonus - wtf?!?) then you've effectively made your bed... sleep tight.
BW0222 09-17-06, 11:00 PM	UmbralKnight, Assuming someone could get a speed that high... 1000 ft. in 6 seconds = 166 ft/sec. = 113 miles per hour. You hold you a sword and watch the person run through it. Honestly, it isn't that much faster than a falcon diving after a pigeon or a cheeta getting itself gored on an antelope. So, combat at those speeds is possible. And the rule simulate a fantasy reality where folks can jump fifty feet, twenty-ton monsters can fly, people can fire arrows at near-machine gun rates, etc. All of which violate rules of physics in this reality.
UmbralKnight 09-18-06, 12:35 AM	I dont think a cheeta moves at quite the same speed...especially when its not even running. What Im trying to picture is when such a character makes a charge. That lets him double that speed to 2070 ft, which is damn fast, and then make an attack. AoO aside, the axtra damage from momentum...its all baffling, Im going to have to make a momentum system...
Cadwyn 09-18-06, 03:02 AM	Uhm, If you already are using outside material I think I have seen a page in one of the quintessential Monk books (1or2) about certain effects in high-speed...There was at some point (120ft I think) where you got 20% concealement (?), and if you vampire-tingy can move 1000+ft I would grant him something like 30%+ concealement...I mean, how in the name of all thats smelly can you see something that fast and not run screaming?
epifreak 09-18-06, 03:27 AM	The easy way to rule it is simply that an enemy has much less time to set up an AoO, but since all he really needs to do is throw the weapon out there and let the character run into it, that's fine and it all evens out. Which might work at a dead sprint; however, as the character isn't even running, it'd be like us walking. If someone held out a sword and didn't move it, I imagine I could easily walk around it.
Killer_DM 09-18-06, 09:27 AM	Well I am at work so someone correct me if i am wrong.... 1035 feet per round is 103.5 feet per second (A melee round is 10 seconds) that works out to about 70 miles per hour. Since a baseball player can hit a 100 mile per hour baseball pitch (a tiny object) I would assume that you could hit a medium object moving at 70 MPH without much trouble.
epifreak 09-18-06, 09:56 AM	Well I am at work so someone correct me if i am wrong.... 1035 feet per round is 103.5 feet per second (A melee round is 10 seconds) that works out to about 70 miles per hour. Since a baseball player can hit a 100 mile per hour baseball pitch (a tiny object) I would assume that you could hit a medium object moving at 70 MPH without much trouble. A round is 6 seconds, not 10.
Killer_DM 09-18-06, 10:02 AM	Ok so that makes a medium creature going about 117mph, still seems doable. Remember that the swing can actually start before the creature arrives in the threatend area. How does a creature going 117mph on 2 feet turn? People running normal speed have problems making turns on grass.
UmbralKnight 09-18-06, 10:16 AM	I suppose you have more mobility when not running. Ive never seen anyone have turning problems walking on grass, so in theory you could say that a really fast being has complete control of its turning capabilities when moving at its regular speed.
Killer_DM 09-18-06, 10:27 AM	The problem is traction, when you put your foot down to turn you have to exert force against the ground to turn. It has nothing to do with walking or running, it is the amount of traction needed to change direction. Oh, and here is a fun thing for your AoO, take a trip attempt...can you say road rash :D
UmbralKnight 09-18-06, 01:41 PM	:thinks: Hmm, so if its about exerting force, a strength check could be in order...
Killer_DM 09-18-06, 02:32 PM	Traction also called "Adhesive friction" Think of it like a car on a curve, you can safely take the corner up to a certain speed, after that your wheels begin to slide sideways on the pavement and you loose traction. The faster you go the less sharp a corner it takes to loose traction. Same thing here except now we have someone with far less surface area contacting a much more unstable surface. I would have to rule that this is similar to the "Manuverability" for flying creatures. and yes all of this would be a "House rule" because there is nothing in the RAW about excessive land movement.
epifreak 09-18-06, 04:47 PM	Then again, I suppose the entire point is moot, as the character could simply spare the extra movement to move around the opponent, completely away from his AoO space without worrying about running out.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 09-18-06, 06:34 PM	Which might work at a dead sprint; however, as the character isn't even running, it'd be like us walking. If someone held out a sword and didn't move it, I imagine I could easily walk around it. Unless the character's reflexes are boosted to keep up with his speed, it would be like us riding a motorbike at 120mph, not walking. And if the character isn't getting extra actions per round, his reflexes aren't boosted enough to keep up. So he still suffers AoO.
shift244 09-19-06, 12:27 AM	I think the relevance of "walking" vs "running" is simply in the full potential of the body to "change into that gear". The reflexes required to react would still be the same. The ability to move at greater speeds may not automatically give one the ability to react. Note: Flying and Maneuverbility. Also, in combat, there are alot of feints and dodges going on that are part of the abstract concept of the turn-based system. The actual Feint and Dodge represent a character's extra training and focus in the action that they make a significant impact in the mechanics. Expanding from this, a character being able to move fast, but without the ability to react at that speed can easily give off hints as to where s/he intends to head. Anyone reading and interpreting this correctly can, as oft pointed in earlier posts, hold out a weapon to act as an obstacle. It does not matter if its my fist rushing towards your face or vice versa. Both will take the same amount of damage at the same force exerted over each other at the time of impact.
OravennasBrother 09-19-06, 03:04 AM	Anti Aircraft Gunners have frequently shot down jets flying at Mach Speed (all is ~5000 feet per round) so it can be done. Bseball players can hit fastballs at 100+ MPH, and the ball is a lot smaller than a person. OTOH I don' use Spiked chains OR any non-core material, so I might not be a really neutral judge.
UmbralKnight 09-19-06, 04:12 AM	Unless the character's reflexes are boosted to keep up with his speed, it would be like us riding a motorbike at 120mph, not walking. And if the character isn't getting extra actions per round, his reflexes aren't boosted enough to keep up. The one difference is, the character would be moving under his own power. With a motorbike, the bike is propelling you, in the sense that it is moving and you are just clinging to it. With the character, he is the one moving at that speed. Meaning, his body must be aclimitized to its own movement rate. He wouldnt be trying to adjust to a speed that is unnatural to him, as one would with a motorbike, because moving at these kinds of speeds is fully within his body's capabilities. This is, however, just my fuzzy logic interpretation of things.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-19-06, 04:28 AM	Reflexes or not he's not going to be dodging bullets, or swords, while mobile. If anything he'll only be hit harder. As long as you're dragging reality into things, always keep in mind a little force called inertia. You know, the effect that makes set vs charge possible.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 09-19-06, 11:11 PM	Meaning, his body must be aclimitized to its own movement rate. Why? There are many possible ways in which a character could move very fast under his own power without having unusually fast reflexes. Perhaps his legs take several steps for every "step now!" impulse his brain sends (some insect wings are like that); perhaps the distance is magically compressed; perhaps he just accelerates really hard and scares the willies out of himself every time he goes too fast. Unless the power says his reflexes are boosted to match, there's no reason to assume they are. And if his reflexes were boosted to match, he'd be able to move faster and get combat bonuses spelled out by the power as a result. Compare Haste with Expeditious Retreat. Both spell effects allow movement at the same speed, but only Haste speeds up the recipient's reflexes and other actions, and hence it has explicitly-spelled-out combat effects.
UmbralKnight 09-20-06, 09:01 AM	Valid arguement. Suppose it comes to a definition of speed. Is speed; a) just the ability to move fast? or b) to have one's molecules speeded up (as the typical sci-fi cliche), and thus be able to move at faster speeds, as you perceive slower beings as simply standing still or moving at a sloth's pace. In D&D, the answer would probably be A. Speed is just that; speed. But, What would "perception of speed" fall under? (the ability to see speed relativly so that you may be aware of and act in high speed situations?) The reflex save wouldnt cut it; the definition of reflex is too narrow. Dex wouldnt really fit, as its mostly coordination. But its an idea. Wisdom? I dont know. (As a side note; am I making sense? I dont have a good grasp of how to explain what Im thinking of any further.)
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-20-06, 09:39 AM	(As a side note; am I making sense? I dont have a good grasp of how to explain what Im thinking of any further.) Not really, no. You stopped making sense the moment you tried to drag sense into this while ignoring the fact that moving that fast under his own power in the first place makes no sense whatsoever. But good luck with that square peg and round hole.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 09-20-06, 02:37 PM	(As a side note; am I making sense? I dont have a good grasp of how to explain what Im thinking of any further.) Yes, of course - you're talking about "am I moving fast relative to my cognition?" vs. "am I moving fast relative to the cognition of others?", which can easily be decoupled. A no/yes response gives you effects like Haste, where you get both speed bonuses and combat bonuses -- you can take more actions per second, so you can take more steps, take more sword-swings, or both. This also describes a normal-speed person vs. a Slowed person. A yes/yes response gives you effects like Expeditious Retreat, where you get speed bonuses but no other bonuses; you can take more or longer steps, but gain no benefits to other actions. A no/no response is normal speed (or both Hasted), where there are no relative benefits. A yes/no response is a character under the effects of Expeditious Retreat fighting a character under the effects of Haste; both can travel at the same rate, but the latter has a substantial edge on reflexes, and so gets combat benefits. In D&D, as I understand it, faster movement and faster perceptions are different things that are only present if explicitly noted. So if the vampire power that lets one go super-fast gives the faster perceptions necessary to grant combat bonuses, those bonuses will be noted in the description of the power. If not, then not.