Attacks of opportunity and Reach [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacks of opportunity and Reach [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Markwolf
12-08-04, 04:44 PM Well... I was wondering... If a character is fighting against a monster that has reach of 15 ft. and that character charges aganst the monster, how do you handle that...?

I have been thinking that the charge reduces the attack of oppotunity of creatures with reach of 5 ft. but if the creature has reach of 15 ft, they can hit the character before it reach him... Like when the character is at 10 ft of the beast.

What do you think?
... Because if not... What is reach for?
salamander
12-08-04, 05:09 PM I have been thinking that the charge reduces the attack of oppotunity of creatures with reach of 5 ft. but if the creature has reach of 15 ft, they can hit the character before it reach him... Like when the character is at 10 ft of the beast.
If you only have a reach of 5 ft, you don't get an AoO
from a character charging you because that character doesn't move through a threatened square (only into one, which never provokes).
If you have longer reach than the character charging you, you will get an AoO (or more than one, depending on the difference in reach). Charging in itself doesn't provoke an AoO, but it doesn't prevent provoking AoOs from movement.

This should be on Equipment & Combat, btw, not on the General board.
Farland
12-08-04, 05:43 PM Right. Leaving a threatened square provokes an AoO, not entering one. So it is not the charge that cuts the AoO, it is the fact that the character does not leave the square. Thus, if a creature has, say a 10' reach, an AoO will be provoked when the attacker leaves the square 2 away from the defender. In the 15' case, the first AoO will be provoked when the attacker levaes the 3 away from the defender, and again when the attacker leaves the square 2 away from the defender. If the defender has combat reflexes and a high enough dex, he can atke advantage of both of these AoOs under 3.5 rules.
FitzNighteyes
12-08-04, 05:55 PM In the 15' case, the first AoO will be provoked when the attacker levaes the 3 away from the defender, and again when the attacker leaves the square 2 away from the defender. If the defender has combat reflexes and a high enough dex, he can atke advantage of both of these AoOs under 3.5 rules.No he can't. Only 1 AoO per opportunity, and all movement counts as a single opportunity.
Thorak
12-08-04, 07:57 PM No he can't. Only 1 AoO per opportunity, and all movement counts as a single opportunity.
Dagnabbit, you beat me to it.
CruelDM
12-08-04, 09:19 PM If you only have a reach of 5 ft, you don't get an AoO
from a character charging you because that character doesn't move through a threatened square (only into one, which never provokes).

Actually hold the line feat allows you to AoO a charger when they enter your threatened square. Never is such a harsh word :)

Otherwise, the 15 foot reach threatens 3 squares out, when the charger leaves the first threatened area the reach grants an AoO. The charger is at -2 AC for this AoO.

A debate on another website is currently underway to determine if a target with Hold the Line gets a second AoO when the charger leaves the threatened square also. I have no opinion at the moment.
Farland
12-10-04, 10:34 PM I agree, one AoO per opportunity, but how do you know that movement counts as one opportunity? It seems a reasonable interpretation that leaving a threatened square is an opportunity.
kjenks
12-10-04, 11:17 PM I agree, one AoO per opportunity, but how do you know that movement counts as one opportunity? It seems a reasonable interpretation that leaving a threatened square is an opportunity.

How do you know? Well, you could read the rule:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Notice that the AoO from Hold the Line is provoked by charging into a threatened square, so it's not subject to this "single AoO from movement" rule.

BTW, the Main 3.5e FAQ added in a new rule from the Miniatures Handbook: you can't charge if the square you start in is threatened. This might affect Markwolf's question if the character starts 15 ft. from the monster with 15 ft. reach.
Egres
12-11-04, 02:36 PM BTW, the Main 3.5e FAQ added in a new rule from the Miniatures Handbook: you can't charge if the square you start in is threatened.
?

Where does it state that?
Aracor
12-11-04, 02:55 PM A debate on another website is currently underway to determine if a target with Hold the Line gets a second AoO when the charger leaves the threatened square also. I have no opinion at the moment.
I made the last Rules of the Game chat with Skip Williams, and he said yes. I'll quote it:

aracor says: If I have a fighter who wields a longspear with Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line, and I ready an action to strike him as he charges, how many attacks would I get before they closed to attack me? If I'm reading the rules properly, I'd get one AoO from Hold the Line, one attack (at double damage) from my readied action, then one more AoO for him exiting my threatened space before he actually closed to within 5' and got his own attack.

thesage says: You take a readied action as soon as you can. And you should resolve the readied attack before worrying about anything else.
thesage says: Hold the line gives you an AoO whenever a foe *enters* the area you threaten, so the AoO happens right after the redied attack.
thesage says: normally even with Combat Reflexes, you only get one AoO per opportunity.
thesage says: In this case, I'd say you have two opportunities. One as the foe comes with reach, and one when the foe leaves the threatened area. Normally Combat Reflexes would not give you extra AoOs against someone moving near you, but Hold the Line creates an opportunity when one did not exist before.

That's quoted directly from my copy of the chat transcript.

~Aracr
Egres
12-11-04, 03:14 PM I made the last Rules of the Game chat with Skip Williams, and he said yes. I'll quote it:

That's quoted directly from my copy of the chat transcript.

~Aracr
Isn't Andy Collins the New Sage?
kjenks
12-11-04, 11:54 PM ?

Where does it state that?

Good golly! It's been removed! I put italics around the text that was removed somtime between the July FAQ and the September FAQ:

Main35FAQv072622004.pdf, page 22:
How many times can a mounted character charge in a
combat situation? Can a mounted character charge an
opponent that is engaged in melee with another party
member?

Generally, a mounted character can charge once a round,
just as any other character can. You can indeed charge a foe
engaged in melee with an ally, provided you can meet all the
requirements for charging (see page 154 of the Player's
Handbook).

Any character making a charge must meet all the
requirements for making a charge: all movement for the round
must be directly toward the designated target, nothing should
block or slow that movement, and the character's charge cannot
begin in a square that an enemy threatens. You cannot charge
through another creature (except a helpless creature), even
though moving through an ally's space doesn't slow you down

Main35FAQv09062004.pdf, page 23:
How many times can a mounted character charge in a
combat situation? Can a mounted character charge an
opponent that is engaged in melee with another party
member?

Generally, a mounted character can charge once a round,
just as any other character can. You can indeed charge a foe
engaged in melee with an ally, provided you can meet all the
requirements for charging (see page 154 of the Player’s
Handbook).

Any character making a charge must meet all the
requirements for making a charge: all movement for the round
must be directly toward the designated target, nothing should
block or slow that movement. You cannot charge through
another creature (except a helpless creature), even though
moving through an ally’s space doesn’t slow you down.

Thanks, Egres, for making me look it up again! I'm glad that awful rule is gone!
Aracor
12-11-04, 11:56 PM Isn't Andy Collins the New Sage?
I dunno, but Skip is the person who's in the Rules of the Game chat, and he's the one doing the Rules of the Game articles, so I assume he's still the sage.

~Aracor
Egres
12-12-04, 08:14 AM I dunno, but Skip is the person who's in the Rules of the Game chat, and he's the one doing the Rules of the Game articles, so I assume he's still the sage.

~Aracor
No, he's no more.

Read the Rules of the Game article once more.

Skip Williams keeps busy with freelance projects for several different game companies and was the Sage of Dragon Magazine for 18 years. Skip is a co-designer of the D&D 3rd Edition game and the chief architect of the Monster Manual. When not devising swift and cruel deaths for player characters, Skip putters in his kitchen or garden (rabbits and deer are not Skip's friends) or works on repairing and improving the century-old farmhouse that he shares with his wife, Penny, and a growing menagerie of pets.
Farland
12-12-04, 09:24 PM How do you know? Well, you could read the rule

No need to get snippy. Jeez.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Markwolf 12-08-04, 04:44 PM	Well... I was wondering... If a character is fighting against a monster that has reach of 15 ft. and that character charges aganst the monster, how do you handle that...? I have been thinking that the charge reduces the attack of oppotunity of creatures with reach of 5 ft. but if the creature has reach of 15 ft, they can hit the character before it reach him... Like when the character is at 10 ft of the beast. What do you think? ... Because if not... What is reach for?
salamander 12-08-04, 05:09 PM	I have been thinking that the charge reduces the attack of oppotunity of creatures with reach of 5 ft. but if the creature has reach of 15 ft, they can hit the character before it reach him... Like when the character is at 10 ft of the beast. If you only have a reach of 5 ft, you don't get an AoO from a character charging you because that character doesn't move through a threatened square (only into one, which never provokes). If you have longer reach than the character charging you, you will get an AoO (or more than one, depending on the difference in reach). Charging in itself doesn't provoke an AoO, but it doesn't prevent provoking AoOs from movement. This should be on Equipment & Combat, btw, not on the General board.
Farland 12-08-04, 05:43 PM	Right. Leaving a threatened square provokes an AoO, not entering one. So it is not the charge that cuts the AoO, it is the fact that the character does not leave the square. Thus, if a creature has, say a 10' reach, an AoO will be provoked when the attacker leaves the square 2 away from the defender. In the 15' case, the first AoO will be provoked when the attacker levaes the 3 away from the defender, and again when the attacker leaves the square 2 away from the defender. If the defender has combat reflexes and a high enough dex, he can atke advantage of both of these AoOs under 3.5 rules.
FitzNighteyes 12-08-04, 05:55 PM	In the 15' case, the first AoO will be provoked when the attacker levaes the 3 away from the defender, and again when the attacker leaves the square 2 away from the defender. If the defender has combat reflexes and a high enough dex, he can atke advantage of both of these AoOs under 3.5 rules.No he can't. Only 1 AoO per opportunity, and all movement counts as a single opportunity.
Thorak 12-08-04, 07:57 PM	No he can't. Only 1 AoO per opportunity, and all movement counts as a single opportunity. Dagnabbit, you beat me to it.
CruelDM 12-08-04, 09:19 PM	If you only have a reach of 5 ft, you don't get an AoO from a character charging you because that character doesn't move through a threatened square (only into one, which never provokes). Actually hold the line feat allows you to AoO a charger when they enter your threatened square. Never is such a harsh word :) Otherwise, the 15 foot reach threatens 3 squares out, when the charger leaves the first threatened area the reach grants an AoO. The charger is at -2 AC for this AoO. A debate on another website is currently underway to determine if a target with Hold the Line gets a second AoO when the charger leaves the threatened square also. I have no opinion at the moment.
Farland 12-10-04, 10:34 PM	I agree, one AoO per opportunity, but how do you know that movement counts as one opportunity? It seems a reasonable interpretation that leaving a threatened square is an opportunity.
kjenks 12-10-04, 11:17 PM	I agree, one AoO per opportunity, but how do you know that movement counts as one opportunity? It seems a reasonable interpretation that leaving a threatened square is an opportunity. How do you know? Well, you could read the rule: Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. Notice that the AoO from Hold the Line is provoked by charging into a threatened square, so it's not subject to this "single AoO from movement" rule. BTW, the Main 3.5e FAQ added in a new rule from the Miniatures Handbook: you can't charge if the square you start in is threatened. This might affect Markwolf's question if the character starts 15 ft. from the monster with 15 ft. reach.
Egres 12-11-04, 02:36 PM	BTW, the Main 3.5e FAQ added in a new rule from the Miniatures Handbook: you can't charge if the square you start in is threatened. ? Where does it state that?
Aracor 12-11-04, 02:55 PM	A debate on another website is currently underway to determine if a target with Hold the Line gets a second AoO when the charger leaves the threatened square also. I have no opinion at the moment. I made the last Rules of the Game chat with Skip Williams, and he said yes. I'll quote it: aracor says: If I have a fighter who wields a longspear with Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line, and I ready an action to strike him as he charges, how many attacks would I get before they closed to attack me? If I'm reading the rules properly, I'd get one AoO from Hold the Line, one attack (at double damage) from my readied action, then one more AoO for him exiting my threatened space before he actually closed to within 5' and got his own attack. thesage says: You take a readied action as soon as you can. And you should resolve the readied attack before worrying about anything else. thesage says: Hold the line gives you an AoO whenever a foe enters the area you threaten, so the AoO happens right after the redied attack. thesage says: normally even with Combat Reflexes, you only get one AoO per opportunity. thesage says: In this case, I'd say you have two opportunities. One as the foe comes with reach, and one when the foe leaves the threatened area. Normally Combat Reflexes would not give you extra AoOs against someone moving near you, but Hold the Line creates an opportunity when one did not exist before. That's quoted directly from my copy of the chat transcript. ~Aracr
Egres 12-11-04, 03:14 PM	I made the last Rules of the Game chat with Skip Williams, and he said yes. I'll quote it: That's quoted directly from my copy of the chat transcript. ~Aracr Isn't Andy Collins the New Sage?
kjenks 12-11-04, 11:54 PM	? Where does it state that? Good golly! It's been removed! I put italics around the text that was removed somtime between the July FAQ and the September FAQ: Main35FAQv072622004.pdf, page 22: How many times can a mounted character charge in a combat situation? Can a mounted character charge an opponent that is engaged in melee with another party member? Generally, a mounted character can charge once a round, just as any other character can. You can indeed charge a foe engaged in melee with an ally, provided you can meet all the requirements for charging (see page 154 of the Player's Handbook). Any character making a charge must meet all the requirements for making a charge: all movement for the round must be directly toward the designated target, nothing should block or slow that movement, and the character's charge cannot begin in a square that an enemy threatens. You cannot charge through another creature (except a helpless creature), even though moving through an ally's space doesn't slow you down Main35FAQv09062004.pdf, page 23: How many times can a mounted character charge in a combat situation? Can a mounted character charge an opponent that is engaged in melee with another party member? Generally, a mounted character can charge once a round, just as any other character can. You can indeed charge a foe engaged in melee with an ally, provided you can meet all the requirements for charging (see page 154 of the Player’s Handbook). Any character making a charge must meet all the requirements for making a charge: all movement for the round must be directly toward the designated target, nothing should block or slow that movement. You cannot charge through another creature (except a helpless creature), even though moving through an ally’s space doesn’t slow you down. Thanks, Egres, for making me look it up again! I'm glad that awful rule is gone!
Aracor 12-11-04, 11:56 PM	Isn't Andy Collins the New Sage? I dunno, but Skip is the person who's in the Rules of the Game chat, and he's the one doing the Rules of the Game articles, so I assume he's still the sage. ~Aracor
Egres 12-12-04, 08:14 AM	I dunno, but Skip is the person who's in the Rules of the Game chat, and he's the one doing the Rules of the Game articles, so I assume he's still the sage. ~Aracor No, he's no more. Read the Rules of the Game article once more. Skip Williams keeps busy with freelance projects for several different game companies and was the Sage of Dragon Magazine for 18 years. Skip is a co-designer of the D&D 3rd Edition game and the chief architect of the Monster Manual. When not devising swift and cruel deaths for player characters, Skip putters in his kitchen or garden (rabbits and deer are not Skip's friends) or works on repairing and improving the century-old farmhouse that he shares with his wife, Penny, and a growing menagerie of pets.
Farland 12-12-04, 09:24 PM	How do you know? Well, you could read the rule No need to get snippy. Jeez.