Attacks of Opportunity (Part One) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacks of Opportunity (Part One) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FitzNighteyes
10-26-04, 01:22 PM From Rules of the Game: Attacks of Opportunity (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041026a)

Common Misconception #3: Attacks of opportunity happen after the actions that trigger them.

Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after. Sometimes, the attack of opportunity will prevent the triggering action (such as when the attack of opportunity proves lethal to a moving character). If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens first. Attacks of opportunity you make in response to a foe's spellcasting or use of a spell-like ability are an exception (see the Making an Attack of Opportunity section), as is moving into a space another creature occupies.Common Sage Misconception #3: Attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them.

Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after. Sometimes, the attack of opportunity will prevent the triggering action (such as when the attack of opportunity proves lethal to a moving character). If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens after the provoking action, but it is resolved first. Attacks of opportunity you make in response to a foe's spellcasting or use of a spell-like ability follow this rule (see the Making an Attack of Opportunity section), as does moving into a space another creature occupies.
Tony Vargas
10-26-04, 02:12 PM Y'know, there's no contradiction there. The second one just includes a conceptual idea (the AoO 'happens' in response to the provoking action - so 'after' it conceptually) along with the mechanical one (the AoO is /resolved/ first), while the first ommits such a distinction. The last sentence of each reflects that, though it is kind of amusing that talking about 'when' an AoO happens conceptually vs mechanically switches spellcasting from 'following' the rule to being an 'exception' to it... Still, they lead to the exact same conclusions about AoOs. One is closer to a direct quote, one is trying to rephrase things slightly to get an idea across (that an AoO can be resolved, mechanically, before the action that provoked it, without temporal paradox... and that in some cases, that means 'interrupting' the action, while in others the action is merely pre-empted).

Reminds me of the 'spin' you see in politics.
FitzNighteyes
10-26-04, 04:43 PM There is a clear difference, in people's understanding of AoOs, between "AoOs happen first" and "AoOs happen after the trigger starts, but AoOs are resolved before the trigger is resolved".

The former seems to seriously confuse people. After all, how can something happen before something that triggered even started happening?

However, I think it is relatively irrelevent from a mechanics perspective, as the primary situation in which is matters (casting a spell) is explicitely spelled out. So yeah, it's mostly spin.

But IMO, the Sage will just confuse people even more into thinking that D&D doesn't follow causality with this. :)
Celt
10-26-04, 06:54 PM I just read the article and noticed this one:

An attack of opportunity is something a creature does during another creature's turn.
I never saw that in any of the books. I guess you can't make AoO if it's your turn.

This settles all of those "Epic AoO Loop" debates I guess.
sapperland
10-26-04, 08:22 PM If a prone person stands up, does the enemy get an AoO with the +4 to hit given for attacking prone targets?
Ashenai
10-26-04, 08:25 PM Yes. And for this same reason, you cannot use that AoO to Trip the opponent again, since he is still prone when the AoO happens. (You can't Trip a prone opponent.)
sapperland
10-26-04, 09:29 PM Thanks for the reply.
Naeron
10-27-04, 06:27 AM I also don't see a misconception here. The Sage is saying that when an action triggers an AoO the AoO is resolved before the triggering action is resolved.

Nowhere does it say that the AoO occurs before the triggering action starts.
damsel in distress
10-27-04, 08:59 AM ups
FitzNighteyes
10-27-04, 12:06 PM Nowhere does it say that the AoO occurs before the triggering action starts.
If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens first. That pretty clearly states that the AoO happens before the thing that provokes it.

Now, I suppose you can interpret "happens first" as "is resolved first", but thats not what I would think of as a common english interpretation.
Finarin Panjoro
10-27-04, 12:39 PM By ultra strict interpretation the PHB states that AoOs happen before the action that provokes them. The SRD actually reads "Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. "

You'd have to divert your attention from the battle before you started the action so no causality contradiction exists.

But like I said this is by ultra strict interpretation. Spellcasting and actions which require concentration are rule specified exceptions to how this works.
FitzNighteyes
10-27-04, 01:20 PM By ultra strict interpretation the PHB states that AoOs happen before the action that provokes them. The SRD actually reads "Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. "

You'd have to divert your attention from the battle before you started the action so no causality contradiction exists.Sorry Fin, I'd forgotten your interpretation.

So yes, there is an interpretation of AoOs that allows causality to be maintained, and the AoO to occur before the action even begins. In that case, AoOs on spellcasting are a specific exception to the normal way AoOs work, in that casting a spell doesn't allow an AoO on the diversion, but instead after the actual act begins.

Which makes little sense to me (why doesn't spell casting divert your attention before the cast just like any other AoO provoking action?), but hey, so be it.

However, I don't think most people approaching the game take that interpretation. IMX, they are far more likely to think: "AoOs happen before the thing that causes them to happen? What the <expletive of choice> is that?"
Tony Vargas
10-27-04, 01:49 PM Yeah, and high-level fighters take turns hitting eachother six times in a row, rather than trade blows continusously throughout the battle. :rolleyes:
FitzNighteyes
10-27-04, 02:14 PM At least that doesn't twist time into knots. :)
Keenath
10-27-04, 02:35 PM From Rules of the Game: Attacks of Opportunity (Part One)

Common Misconception #2: What you do later in your turn can affect whether you provoke an attack of opportunity when you leave a threatened square.

If you get out of threatened square alive, you don't have to worry about attacks of opportunity later -- unless you've moved into another square that a foe threatens.

Common Sage Misconception #2: What you plan to do later in the turn doesn't affect taking AOOs.

He's right, in that you don't take an AOO for spellcasting if you move back ten feet and cast. You do, however, take an AOO for leaving a threatened square!

What he's ignoring is common use of the 'disengage' rule. That is, there is a special type of full-round action called a disengage that allows you to move twice your speed (identical to a double move) and the square you start in is not considered to be 'threatened'. In a lot of cases, people take this type of move without explicitly stating it.

The usual interaction is as follows:
Player: I'm a wizard, and I don't like standing next to an orc. They smell bad. I move back twenty feet.
DM: Okay.
Player: And now I'll cast a spell.
DM: Okay, you take an attack of opportunity from the orc.

Now, the DM has done this correctly! You, like the player, may be feeling cheated. Let's play out the sequence:
Player: What?! I'm twenty feet away when I start casting!
DM: If you're going to cast after moving, you're not disengaging, so you left a threatened square and you take an AOO.
Player: Augh! Okay, *fine*. I don't cast a spell.
DM: Okay, then you're disengaging. You can move up to 40 feet more, if you want. You get a double move when you disengage.

The trick here is that casting the spell didn't *provoke* the AOO, but the casting forces him to not take the action that *prevented* an AOO earlier. The advantage is that this AOO (assuming the wizard survives) does not have any chance of interrupting his spell, because by the time he starts casting, the attack happened a long time ago.
Tony Vargas
10-27-04, 03:28 PM You're thinking of 3.0 - in 3.5 there's an actual Full-Round 'Withdraw' action that only allows movement.
JohnSnow
10-27-04, 03:29 PM Common Sage Misconception #2: What you plan to do later in the turn doesn't affect taking AOOs.

He's right, in that you don't take an AOO for spellcasting if you move back ten feet and cast. You do, however, take an AOO for leaving a threatened square!

What he's ignoring is common use of the 'disengage' rule. That is, there is a special type of full-round action called a disengage that allows you to move twice your speed (identical to a double move) and the square you start in is not considered to be 'threatened'. In a lot of cases, people take this type of move without explicitly stating it.

Simple solution: Do not ALLOW this. Then the interaction reads as follows.

Player: I'm a wizard, and I don't like standing next to an orc. They smell bad. I move back twenty feet.
DM: Okay. You're withdrawing from combat and can take no other actions.
Player: But I want to cast a spell!
DM: Sorry. Next time say you're moving away to cast a spell. But the orc would get an attack of opportunity as you pulled back.

If the DM knows the sequence, it's simple. And there are no "causality loops." Except for the whole "Can I use an AoO to re-trip someone who's getting up from prone"...but that's annoying.

My answer? Certain action provoke attacks of opportunity, and those AoO's 'interrupt' actions. If the later part of the action is contingent on it proceeding uninterrupted, the action MIGHT not occur. For example, being attacked while spellcasting forces the caster to make a concentration check or lose the spell. Certain kinds of attacks while standing up may force the character to make some save to avoid going prone again (Yes, I realize that's a houserule, but it's a logical one to me).

This keeps everything nice and internally consistent.
FitzNighteyes
10-27-04, 03:29 PM What he's ignoring is common use of the 'disengage' rule. That is, there is a special type of full-round action called a disengage that allows you to move twice your speed (identical to a double move) and the square you start in is not considered to be 'threatened'. In a lot of cases, people take this type of move without explicitly stating it.Well, the DM should be on top of this. In 3r, the way to run this is:

Player: I'm a wizard, and I don't like standing next to an orc. They smell bad. I move back twenty feet.
DM: You take an AoO for that unless you are using the Withdraw action.
or
DM: Are you using the Withdraw action?

Or, in 3e:
Player: I'm a wizard, and I don't like standing next to an orc. They smell bad. I move back twenty feet.
DM: You take an AoO for that unless you are using that's the only thing you'll be doing this round.
or
DM: Is that the only thing you are doing this round?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FitzNighteyes 10-26-04, 01:22 PM	From Rules of the Game: Attacks of Opportunity (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041026a) Common Misconception #3: Attacks of opportunity happen after the actions that trigger them. Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after. Sometimes, the attack of opportunity will prevent the triggering action (such as when the attack of opportunity proves lethal to a moving character). If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens first. Attacks of opportunity you make in response to a foe's spellcasting or use of a spell-like ability are an exception (see the Making an Attack of Opportunity section), as is moving into a space another creature occupies.Common Sage Misconception #3: Attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them. Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after. Sometimes, the attack of opportunity will prevent the triggering action (such as when the attack of opportunity proves lethal to a moving character). If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens after the provoking action, but it is resolved first. Attacks of opportunity you make in response to a foe's spellcasting or use of a spell-like ability follow this rule (see the Making an Attack of Opportunity section), as does moving into a space another creature occupies.
Tony Vargas 10-26-04, 02:12 PM	Y'know, there's no contradiction there. The second one just includes a conceptual idea (the AoO 'happens' in response to the provoking action - so 'after' it conceptually) along with the mechanical one (the AoO is /resolved/ first), while the first ommits such a distinction. The last sentence of each reflects that, though it is kind of amusing that talking about 'when' an AoO happens conceptually vs mechanically switches spellcasting from 'following' the rule to being an 'exception' to it... Still, they lead to the exact same conclusions about AoOs. One is closer to a direct quote, one is trying to rephrase things slightly to get an idea across (that an AoO can be resolved, mechanically, before the action that provoked it, without temporal paradox... and that in some cases, that means 'interrupting' the action, while in others the action is merely pre-empted). Reminds me of the 'spin' you see in politics.
FitzNighteyes 10-26-04, 04:43 PM	There is a clear difference, in people's understanding of AoOs, between "AoOs happen first" and "AoOs happen after the trigger starts, but AoOs are resolved before the trigger is resolved". The former seems to seriously confuse people. After all, how can something happen before something that triggered even started happening? However, I think it is relatively irrelevent from a mechanics perspective, as the primary situation in which is matters (casting a spell) is explicitely spelled out. So yeah, it's mostly spin. But IMO, the Sage will just confuse people even more into thinking that D&D doesn't follow causality with this. :)
Celt 10-26-04, 06:54 PM	I just read the article and noticed this one: An attack of opportunity is something a creature does during another creature's turn. I never saw that in any of the books. I guess you can't make AoO if it's your turn. This settles all of those "Epic AoO Loop" debates I guess.
sapperland 10-26-04, 08:22 PM	If a prone person stands up, does the enemy get an AoO with the +4 to hit given for attacking prone targets?
Ashenai 10-26-04, 08:25 PM	Yes. And for this same reason, you cannot use that AoO to Trip the opponent again, since he is still prone when the AoO happens. (You can't Trip a prone opponent.)
sapperland 10-26-04, 09:29 PM	Thanks for the reply.
Naeron 10-27-04, 06:27 AM	I also don't see a misconception here. The Sage is saying that when an action triggers an AoO the AoO is resolved before the triggering action is resolved. Nowhere does it say that the AoO occurs before the triggering action starts.
damsel in distress 10-27-04, 08:59 AM	ups
FitzNighteyes 10-27-04, 12:06 PM	Nowhere does it say that the AoO occurs before the triggering action starts. If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens first. That pretty clearly states that the AoO happens before the thing that provokes it. Now, I suppose you can interpret "happens first" as "is resolved first", but thats not what I would think of as a common english interpretation.
Finarin Panjoro 10-27-04, 12:39 PM	By ultra strict interpretation the PHB states that AoOs happen before the action that provokes them. The SRD actually reads "Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. " You'd have to divert your attention from the battle before you started the action so no causality contradiction exists. But like I said this is by ultra strict interpretation. Spellcasting and actions which require concentration are rule specified exceptions to how this works.
FitzNighteyes 10-27-04, 01:20 PM	By ultra strict interpretation the PHB states that AoOs happen before the action that provokes them. The SRD actually reads "Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. " You'd have to divert your attention from the battle before you started the action so no causality contradiction exists.Sorry Fin, I'd forgotten your interpretation. So yes, there is an interpretation of AoOs that allows causality to be maintained, and the AoO to occur before the action even begins. In that case, AoOs on spellcasting are a specific exception to the normal way AoOs work, in that casting a spell doesn't allow an AoO on the diversion, but instead after the actual act begins. Which makes little sense to me (why doesn't spell casting divert your attention before the cast just like any other AoO provoking action?), but hey, so be it. However, I don't think most people approaching the game take that interpretation. IMX, they are far more likely to think: "AoOs happen before the thing that causes them to happen? What the <expletive of choice> is that?"
Tony Vargas 10-27-04, 01:49 PM	Yeah, and high-level fighters take turns hitting eachother six times in a row, rather than trade blows continusously throughout the battle. :rolleyes:
FitzNighteyes 10-27-04, 02:14 PM	At least that doesn't twist time into knots. :)
Keenath 10-27-04, 02:35 PM	From Rules of the Game: Attacks of Opportunity (Part One) Common Misconception #2: What you do later in your turn can affect whether you provoke an attack of opportunity when you leave a threatened square. If you get out of threatened square alive, you don't have to worry about attacks of opportunity later -- unless you've moved into another square that a foe threatens. Common Sage Misconception #2: What you plan to do later in the turn doesn't affect taking AOOs. He's right, in that you don't take an AOO for spellcasting if you move back ten feet and cast. You do, however, take an AOO for leaving a threatened square! What he's ignoring is common use of the 'disengage' rule. That is, there is a special type of full-round action called a disengage that allows you to move twice your speed (identical to a double move) and the square you start in is not considered to be 'threatened'. In a lot of cases, people take this type of move without explicitly stating it. The usual interaction is as follows: Player: I'm a wizard, and I don't like standing next to an orc. They smell bad. I move back twenty feet. DM: Okay. Player: And now I'll cast a spell. DM: Okay, you take an attack of opportunity from the orc. Now, the DM has done this correctly! You, like the player, may be feeling cheated. Let's play out the sequence: Player: What?! I'm twenty feet away when I start casting! DM: If you're going to cast after moving, you're not disengaging, so you left a threatened square and you take an AOO. Player: Augh! Okay, fine. I don't cast a spell. DM: Okay, then you're disengaging. You can move up to 40 feet more, if you want. You get a double move when you disengage. The trick here is that casting the spell didn't provoke the AOO, but the casting forces him to not take the action that prevented an AOO earlier. The advantage is that this AOO (assuming the wizard survives) does not have any chance of interrupting his spell, because by the time he starts casting, the attack happened a long time ago.
Tony Vargas 10-27-04, 03:28 PM	You're thinking of 3.0 - in 3.5 there's an actual Full-Round 'Withdraw' action that only allows movement.
JohnSnow 10-27-04, 03:29 PM	Common Sage Misconception #2: What you plan to do later in the turn doesn't affect taking AOOs. He's right, in that you don't take an AOO for spellcasting if you move back ten feet and cast. You do, however, take an AOO for leaving a threatened square! What he's ignoring is common use of the 'disengage' rule. That is, there is a special type of full-round action called a disengage that allows you to move twice your speed (identical to a double move) and the square you start in is not considered to be 'threatened'. In a lot of cases, people take this type of move without explicitly stating it. Simple solution: Do not ALLOW this. Then the interaction reads as follows. Player: I'm a wizard, and I don't like standing next to an orc. They smell bad. I move back twenty feet. DM: Okay. You're withdrawing from combat and can take no other actions. Player: But I want to cast a spell! DM: Sorry. Next time say you're moving away to cast a spell. But the orc would get an attack of opportunity as you pulled back. If the DM knows the sequence, it's simple. And there are no "causality loops." Except for the whole "Can I use an AoO to re-trip someone who's getting up from prone"...but that's annoying. My answer? Certain action provoke attacks of opportunity, and those AoO's 'interrupt' actions. If the later part of the action is contingent on it proceeding uninterrupted, the action MIGHT not occur. For example, being attacked while spellcasting forces the caster to make a concentration check or lose the spell. Certain kinds of attacks while standing up may force the character to make some save to avoid going prone again (Yes, I realize that's a houserule, but it's a logical one to me). This keeps everything nice and internally consistent.
FitzNighteyes 10-27-04, 03:29 PM	What he's ignoring is common use of the 'disengage' rule. That is, there is a special type of full-round action called a disengage that allows you to move twice your speed (identical to a double move) and the square you start in is not considered to be 'threatened'. In a lot of cases, people take this type of move without explicitly stating it.Well, the DM should be on top of this. In 3r, the way to run this is: Player: I'm a wizard, and I don't like standing next to an orc. They smell bad. I move back twenty feet. DM: You take an AoO for that unless you are using the Withdraw action. or DM: Are you using the Withdraw action? Or, in 3e: Player: I'm a wizard, and I don't like standing next to an orc. They smell bad. I move back twenty feet. DM: You take an AoO for that unless you are using that's the only thing you'll be doing this round. or DM: Is that the only thing you are doing this round?