Augmenting Armor Bonues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Augmenting Armor Bonues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Wilgar
09-28-07, 03:36 PM I just wanted to get people opinions on whether or not this was balanced. I had a thought that you could augment the armor bonus of a piece of armor in a manner similar to upgrading bracers of armor. This would be in addition to any enhancement bonus you might choose to give it.

An example:

I have a masterwork chain shirt (Armor Bonus +4) and would like to upgrade it to an Armor Bonus +8. So I go and look up the price for Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp) and Bracers of Armor +4 (16,000 gp). Subtracting the higher from the lower, I find that I must pay 48,000 gp to give the chain shirt an Armor Bonus of +8. I could then later give it an enhancement bonus in the normal fashion.

This masterwork chain shirt (with +8 armor bonus) would cost 48,250 gp in total. For comparison, masterwork plate mail (also Armor Bonus +8) costs 1,650. So the question becomes, is paying 46,600 gp a sufficient cost for the right to wear what is essentially plate mail with a good Max Dexterity Bonus and low Armor Check Penalties?

If that is not enough of a cost to offset it, what is? My DM suggested paying double, as you would for an unslotted item, but that seems a tad steep to me. Thoughts?
tarkin
09-28-07, 04:07 PM First of all the Bracers ARE already priced the same way as the standard AC protection. So what you are proposing makes no real sense.

What you are really trying to do is to set up two seperate, concurrent bonuses to AC, both an Enhancement and randomly declaring (for no discernable reason besides attempting to save money) another set as "not-Enhancement".

I see zero reason at all to allow another, complicated AC pricing systems SIMPLY to help you reduce your cost. If you want to do something like this, you need a reason BESIDES cost to do it.

For example, suppose the 'not-enhancement' was an insight bonus, therefore applying to touch attacks. But hey, still not a good reason to use the wierd pricing system you want to. If I were to allow you to add say a non-enhancement bonus to AC, it should be priced using the same armor pricing system

That is:

Chain Mail (base +4)

+4 straight magic enhancement to AC.
+2 Insight bonus to AC. Insight cost +3 (created by me, as an example)

Total AC for wearing this item: +10
But +8 counts as armor and +2 counts as Insight
Being Insight it also protects against touch attacks.

Yeah, it costs the same as a +7 armor, and only gives you +6, but you get the added benefit of it working when normal Armor does not.
Loki5654
09-28-07, 04:24 PM I just wanted to get people opinions on whether or not this was balanced. I had a thought that you could augment the armor bonus of a piece of armor in a manner similar to upgrading bracers of armor. This would be in addition to any enhancement bonus you might choose to give it.

An example:

I have a masterwork chain shirt (Armor Bonus +4) and would like to upgrade it to an Armor Bonus +8. So I go and look up the price for Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp) and Bracers of Armor +4 (16,000 gp). Subtracting the higher from the lower, I find that I must pay 48,000 gp to give the chain shirt an Armor Bonus of +8. I could then later give it an enhancement bonus in the normal fashion.

This masterwork chain shirt (with +8 armor bonus) would cost 48,250 gp in total. For comparison, masterwork plate mail (also Armor Bonus +8) costs 1,650. So the question becomes, is paying 46,600 gp a sufficient cost for the right to wear what is essentially plate mail with a good Max Dexterity Bonus and low Armor Check Penalties?

If that is not enough of a cost to offset it, what is? My DM suggested paying double, as you would for an unslotted item, but that seems a tad steep to me. Thoughts?
So you want a Chain Shirt that gives +8 armor to AC?

'Round these parts, we call that a +4 chain shirt.

It costs 16,000gp + a MW chain shirt.

What's so hard about that?
Pechvarry
09-28-07, 10:39 PM Probably has to do with the fact that armor sucks if you're playing a campaign with higher-than-average base stats? My gaming history under very few DMs seem to point at the fact that losing maneuverability is about the worst thing possible in practice. But that's neither here nor there.

Are you planning on implementing this as something that normal blacksmiths might do to existing armor? e.g. Get away from the reliance on mages to make decent melee gear? I could see this is as something like the Suikoden games -- you go to the blacksmith to improve your weapons instead of buying upgrades. I don't think it's a bad idea, however:

You need a cap. There's already the soft cap of ever-increasing costs, but maybe a hard cap of say... 50-100% of base armor (so chain shirt could only be increased to a +6 or a +8 -- honestly, I'd go for the 50% number). Can't help much more than that.
The Wilgar
09-28-07, 11:52 PM Loss of maneuverability is only part of it. I'm getting ready to play in a gestalt game as a level 1 fighter-wizard. I took the Armored Mage option from Complete Mage, and am limited to light armor.

Looking at some of the previous posts, I'm beginning to think that I didn't explain myself very well. Let me try explaining it another way.

I'm the games I play in, we find it important to differentiate between a piece of armor's Armor Bonus and Enhancement Bonus. By and large, it doesn't matter and +2 leather adds a +4 to your AC. But here are a couple of examples where it would matter.

1) Say my character is wearing that +2 leather and the party wizard casts a spell on my armor that gives it a +2 enhancement bonus. Now, enhancement bonuses don't stack, so it's worthless. But if that spell gave me a +4 bonus, this it would overlap the existing +2, bringing the total AC gain to +6. Does everyone agree with my logic so far? Please post if not.

2) Now suppose that the same wizard is casts Mage Armor on me instead of that other spell. The +4 Armor Bonus from Mage Armor would overlap with the +2 Armor Bonus normally granted by Leather Armor, leaving me with a +4 Armor Bonus and a +2 Enhancement Bonus, for a total gain of +6 to AC. Once again, am I making sense? Even if you disagree, do you see how I got here?

Now I get to my point. If I were wearing this hypothetical +2 leather, and then put on Bracers of Armor +8, by the thinking I outlined above, their +8 Armor Bonus would overlap with the leather's +2 Armor Bonus, and I'd be left with a +8 Armor Bonus and a +2 Enhancement Bonus to Armor, with a grand total of +10 to AC.

So my thinking was, why can I not simple enchant the armor itself to act as Bracers of Armor? I was thinking I could get something of a price break for the Armor Bonus that the armor already provides (similar to improving an existing magic item) but that's certainly not necessary. I could even see paying double, for adding new magical properties to an existing magical item.

I suppose I could get around this whole mess by just paying double for some sort of unslotted Bracers of Armor and wearing them in addition to my armor, but I really like the whole flavor of a wizard enchanting a +5 mithral shirt to be a effective as +5 Full Plate while retaining it's mobility.

Any thoughts? Questions? Suggestions? Dirty Limericks?
EjoThims
09-29-07, 03:20 AM Magically enchanted armor gives an armor bonus.

There is no 'enchantment' bonus to AC.

You could make items that granted one (or even an untyped bonus), but you'd have to pay the extra cost for different bonus type, as well as the extra cost for different affinity slot or slotless.

What you are wantig to do can be done.

But it is not cheap.
reaper5081
09-29-07, 04:27 AM FAIL there are already rulez 4 dis look in epic srd stuff
Captain_Kobold
09-29-07, 08:47 AM I think you are working under a misconception. An enhancement bonus is not (directly) a bonus to the character's AC, but rather a bonus to the armour's armor bonus.

Thus, a +2 chainmail shirt gives a straight +6 armour bonus.

The bracers of armour also give an armour bonus, and so would not improve your AC. (Apart from against incorporeal attacks: These would ignore all of the AC provided by the +2 chainmail shirt.)
Pechvarry
09-29-07, 04:59 PM FAIL there are already rulez 4 dis look in epic srd stuff

Completely uncalled for.

Yeah, Wilgar, you have a misconception. when you enhance armor, like a +2 Chain shirt, the enhancement is an enhancement bonus to the armor bonus. Confusing to have a type of a type, but that's how it is. Thus, Mage Armor would have completely no effect on such a character. I think this could be described via a Venn diagram, but I'm too lazy to head up that task. =)
The Wilgar
09-29-07, 07:35 PM Well, if that's the case, maybe I'll just go with some kind of luck bonus to armor, or something like that. Thanks everybody.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Wilgar 09-28-07, 03:36 PM	I just wanted to get people opinions on whether or not this was balanced. I had a thought that you could augment the armor bonus of a piece of armor in a manner similar to upgrading bracers of armor. This would be in addition to any enhancement bonus you might choose to give it. An example: I have a masterwork chain shirt (Armor Bonus +4) and would like to upgrade it to an Armor Bonus +8. So I go and look up the price for Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp) and Bracers of Armor +4 (16,000 gp). Subtracting the higher from the lower, I find that I must pay 48,000 gp to give the chain shirt an Armor Bonus of +8. I could then later give it an enhancement bonus in the normal fashion. This masterwork chain shirt (with +8 armor bonus) would cost 48,250 gp in total. For comparison, masterwork plate mail (also Armor Bonus +8) costs 1,650. So the question becomes, is paying 46,600 gp a sufficient cost for the right to wear what is essentially plate mail with a good Max Dexterity Bonus and low Armor Check Penalties? If that is not enough of a cost to offset it, what is? My DM suggested paying double, as you would for an unslotted item, but that seems a tad steep to me. Thoughts?
tarkin 09-28-07, 04:07 PM	First of all the Bracers ARE already priced the same way as the standard AC protection. So what you are proposing makes no real sense. What you are really trying to do is to set up two seperate, concurrent bonuses to AC, both an Enhancement and randomly declaring (for no discernable reason besides attempting to save money) another set as "not-Enhancement". I see zero reason at all to allow another, complicated AC pricing systems SIMPLY to help you reduce your cost. If you want to do something like this, you need a reason BESIDES cost to do it. For example, suppose the 'not-enhancement' was an insight bonus, therefore applying to touch attacks. But hey, still not a good reason to use the wierd pricing system you want to. If I were to allow you to add say a non-enhancement bonus to AC, it should be priced using the same armor pricing system That is: Chain Mail (base +4) +4 straight magic enhancement to AC. +2 Insight bonus to AC. Insight cost +3 (created by me, as an example) Total AC for wearing this item: +10 But +8 counts as armor and +2 counts as Insight Being Insight it also protects against touch attacks. Yeah, it costs the same as a +7 armor, and only gives you +6, but you get the added benefit of it working when normal Armor does not.
Loki5654 09-28-07, 04:24 PM	I just wanted to get people opinions on whether or not this was balanced. I had a thought that you could augment the armor bonus of a piece of armor in a manner similar to upgrading bracers of armor. This would be in addition to any enhancement bonus you might choose to give it. An example: I have a masterwork chain shirt (Armor Bonus +4) and would like to upgrade it to an Armor Bonus +8. So I go and look up the price for Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp) and Bracers of Armor +4 (16,000 gp). Subtracting the higher from the lower, I find that I must pay 48,000 gp to give the chain shirt an Armor Bonus of +8. I could then later give it an enhancement bonus in the normal fashion. This masterwork chain shirt (with +8 armor bonus) would cost 48,250 gp in total. For comparison, masterwork plate mail (also Armor Bonus +8) costs 1,650. So the question becomes, is paying 46,600 gp a sufficient cost for the right to wear what is essentially plate mail with a good Max Dexterity Bonus and low Armor Check Penalties? If that is not enough of a cost to offset it, what is? My DM suggested paying double, as you would for an unslotted item, but that seems a tad steep to me. Thoughts? So you want a Chain Shirt that gives +8 armor to AC? 'Round these parts, we call that a +4 chain shirt. It costs 16,000gp + a MW chain shirt. What's so hard about that?
Pechvarry 09-28-07, 10:39 PM	Probably has to do with the fact that armor sucks if you're playing a campaign with higher-than-average base stats? My gaming history under very few DMs seem to point at the fact that losing maneuverability is about the worst thing possible in practice. But that's neither here nor there. Are you planning on implementing this as something that normal blacksmiths might do to existing armor? e.g. Get away from the reliance on mages to make decent melee gear? I could see this is as something like the Suikoden games -- you go to the blacksmith to improve your weapons instead of buying upgrades. I don't think it's a bad idea, however: You need a cap. There's already the soft cap of ever-increasing costs, but maybe a hard cap of say... 50-100% of base armor (so chain shirt could only be increased to a +6 or a +8 -- honestly, I'd go for the 50% number). Can't help much more than that.
The Wilgar 09-28-07, 11:52 PM	Loss of maneuverability is only part of it. I'm getting ready to play in a gestalt game as a level 1 fighter-wizard. I took the Armored Mage option from Complete Mage, and am limited to light armor. Looking at some of the previous posts, I'm beginning to think that I didn't explain myself very well. Let me try explaining it another way. I'm the games I play in, we find it important to differentiate between a piece of armor's Armor Bonus and Enhancement Bonus. By and large, it doesn't matter and +2 leather adds a +4 to your AC. But here are a couple of examples where it would matter. 1) Say my character is wearing that +2 leather and the party wizard casts a spell on my armor that gives it a +2 enhancement bonus. Now, enhancement bonuses don't stack, so it's worthless. But if that spell gave me a +4 bonus, this it would overlap the existing +2, bringing the total AC gain to +6. Does everyone agree with my logic so far? Please post if not. 2) Now suppose that the same wizard is casts Mage Armor on me instead of that other spell. The +4 Armor Bonus from Mage Armor would overlap with the +2 Armor Bonus normally granted by Leather Armor, leaving me with a +4 Armor Bonus and a +2 Enhancement Bonus, for a total gain of +6 to AC. Once again, am I making sense? Even if you disagree, do you see how I got here? Now I get to my point. If I were wearing this hypothetical +2 leather, and then put on Bracers of Armor +8, by the thinking I outlined above, their +8 Armor Bonus would overlap with the leather's +2 Armor Bonus, and I'd be left with a +8 Armor Bonus and a +2 Enhancement Bonus to Armor, with a grand total of +10 to AC. So my thinking was, why can I not simple enchant the armor itself to act as Bracers of Armor? I was thinking I could get something of a price break for the Armor Bonus that the armor already provides (similar to improving an existing magic item) but that's certainly not necessary. I could even see paying double, for adding new magical properties to an existing magical item. I suppose I could get around this whole mess by just paying double for some sort of unslotted Bracers of Armor and wearing them in addition to my armor, but I really like the whole flavor of a wizard enchanting a +5 mithral shirt to be a effective as +5 Full Plate while retaining it's mobility. Any thoughts? Questions? Suggestions? Dirty Limericks?
EjoThims 09-29-07, 03:20 AM	Magically enchanted armor gives an armor bonus. There is no 'enchantment' bonus to AC. You could make items that granted one (or even an untyped bonus), but you'd have to pay the extra cost for different bonus type, as well as the extra cost for different affinity slot or slotless. What you are wantig to do can be done. But it is not cheap.
reaper5081 09-29-07, 04:27 AM	FAIL there are already rulez 4 dis look in epic srd stuff
Captain_Kobold 09-29-07, 08:47 AM	I think you are working under a misconception. An enhancement bonus is not (directly) a bonus to the character's AC, but rather a bonus to the armour's armor bonus. Thus, a +2 chainmail shirt gives a straight +6 armour bonus. The bracers of armour also give an armour bonus, and so would not improve your AC. (Apart from against incorporeal attacks: These would ignore all of the AC provided by the +2 chainmail shirt.)
Pechvarry 09-29-07, 04:59 PM	FAIL there are already rulez 4 dis look in epic srd stuff Completely uncalled for. Yeah, Wilgar, you have a misconception. when you enhance armor, like a +2 Chain shirt, the enhancement is an enhancement bonus to the armor bonus. Confusing to have a type of a type, but that's how it is. Thus, Mage Armor would have completely no effect on such a character. I think this could be described via a Venn diagram, but I'm too lazy to head up that task. =)
The Wilgar 09-29-07, 07:35 PM	Well, if that's the case, maybe I'll just go with some kind of luck bonus to armor, or something like that. Thanks everybody.