Avoiding the counter-trip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Avoiding the counter-trip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Novacat
04-28-08, 06:10 AM I've looked, and I'm pretty sure I'm SOL, but I have to ask.

When I fail my attempt to trip an opponent, is there any way to avoid their chance to try to trip me short of dropping my weapon?
Knightblde
04-28-08, 07:34 AM If you use a weapon, you can drop the weapon. It will state so in the description of the weapon.

From the SRD
You can make trip attacks with the chain. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.
Jay_Ibero_911
04-28-08, 12:00 PM The Combat Acrobat feat will let you avoid any effect that knocks you prone with a successful DC 20 Balance Check.
Metafictional
04-28-08, 12:26 PM Playing a character that uses Improved Trip a lot, here's the following suggestions:

1) play a Dwarf. Not an option for me either, sadly.

2) Prone Fighting Feat. Absolutely amazing, only problem is the Lightning Reflexes prereq.

3) Figure out how to take the first level of Thief-Acrobat so you can stand up from prone as a free action.

4) there's a pair of boots in the MIC that grants +4 to avoid being Bull Rushed, Tripped, etc. (actually, I think there's more than one item in the MIC that does this, I just know the item I personally want from there are boots).

5) get bigger, via Enlarge Person (or even better, a psionic tattoo of augmented Expansion) which also makes your tripping better.

Because who really wants to drop their spiked chain in combat?
mvincent
04-28-08, 01:38 PM When I fail my attempt to trip an opponent, is there any way to avoid their chance to try to trip me short of dropping my weapon?From the 3.5 FAQ:
"Things that don’t need limbs for locomotion can’t be tripped."

So (for example) moving via the fly spell should prevent you from being tripped. Another option might be to polymorph into say, a Yuan-ti abomination or somesuch.
Knightblde
04-28-08, 04:59 PM Well, next time I will wake up then read, rather than read then wake. I read 'short of' as 'sort of'.

Disregard my original post which was of no use to this discussion.
Mad_Jack
04-29-08, 02:05 AM Well this won't help you to prevent being tripped, but...

If you've got ranks in Tumble, the skill tricks Nimble Stand and Back On Your Feet from Complete Scoundrel will help you get back up afterward.

If you've got 8 ranks, Nimble Stand will let you stand up without provoking an AoO...

At 12 ranks, you can get the trick Back On Your Feet which is basically an instant reset button. You're immediately back on your feet.
Metafictional
04-29-08, 03:38 PM Now here's a fun question. If someone attempts to trip me, but I have Improved Trip, do I:

Get +4 on my roll to avoid being tripped due to the Feat?

If the enemy fails to trip me, do I get +4 to counter-trip?

And if I counter-trip successfully, do I get the free attack from Improved Trip?
ToastedAmphibian
04-29-08, 03:56 PM 1) No
2) Yes
3) Yes
mvincent
04-29-08, 04:02 PM Now here's a fun question. If someone attempts to trip me, but I have Improved Trip, do I:

Get +4 on my roll to avoid being tripped due to the Feat?No

If the enemy fails to trip me, do I get +4 to counter-trip?Yes

From the 3.5 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070726a):
"The Improved Trip feat applies any time you trip a foe in melee combat, even if that trip comes from a special power."

(fwiw: you cannot counter-trip a counter-trip, in case it comes up)

And if I counter-trip successfully, do I get the free attack from Improved Trip?I would say no because the rules for improved trip say:
"you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt"

In this case, you would not have otherwise got a melee attack against that opponent if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt (plus, it doesn't seem to fit with RAI, or with what the counter-trip represents).
ToastedAmphibian
04-29-08, 04:51 PM you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent
Your enimes failure to trip you gives you a free atempt to trip them. Thats an attack. Improved trip gives you a melee attack. I dont see how you could possibly argue that you dont get another attack.

Now, if you had said that the attack improved trip gives you must conform to the conditions of the orignial attack, in this case, needing to be a trip attempt, then you could have a decent case for claiming that, yes, improved trip gives you another attack, but that that attack must be another trip attempt, which cannot possibly have any effect whatsoever.
Toki_Wartooth
04-29-08, 05:16 PM Your enimes failure to trip you gives you a free atempt to trip them. Thats an attack.Actually, it's not. No attack roll is made, it is simply a reaction. If someone tries to trip you with a spiked chain and you're stronger than them, you can end up ripping the weapon out of their hands... or yanking them off their feet if they hold on. In the latter case you don't get a free attack with the weapon that you used to trip them... they are still are using it. In fact, you may not even be able to reach your opponent.

I dont see how you could possibly argue that you dont get another attack.That speaks more about you than the opposing viewpoint.
Metafictional
04-30-08, 02:40 AM Hm, I should have realized the first question was a "no"...that actually puts a crimp in my chain tripper's style, since I wasn't allowed to be a dwarf. Question two was pretty obvious, but I wanted to be certain.

Question three...wow. That's a tough one, mostly because Improved Trip is bizarrely worded.

Wonder what the DM will say...
Merestil Haye
04-30-08, 09:38 AM The FAQ makes it clear that the intent of the feat is to grant an extra attack whenever you succeed in tripping the target.The phrase "as if you had not used your attack" is just another way of indicating the attack bonus used for the extra attack.

Thus I think you would get the extra attack if you succeed in the trip attempt.
Zarith
04-30-08, 03:18 PM I would say no to the extra attack since you are just making an opposed strength check (there is no attack roll for you) and were not the one that made the initial attack roll.

SRD
Trip
If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

SRD
Improved Trip
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

FAQ (In a question about the use of Bluff)
The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack;
mvincent
04-30-08, 04:54 PM I think you would get the extra attack if you succeed in the trip attempt.That's definitely a reasonable interpretation. Would this be with any of your own weapons you currently wield? Aslo, if you cannot reach your opponent with your own weapons after you trip him, would you then not get to make the attack?
Merestil Haye
04-30-08, 07:13 PM That's definitely a reasonable interpretation. Would this be with any of your own weapons you currently wield? Aslo, if you cannot reach your opponent with your own weapons after you trip him, would you then not get to make the attack?I'd allow it with any weapon you threaten the target with or, if it is your turn, can draw as a free action and that you can threaten the target with.

I would not allow you to move closer to the target before resolving the attack, so if none of your weapons can reach, you lose the extra attack.
Johannixx
05-01-08, 12:42 AM It may not matter, depending on the DM, but IIRC the Sage ruled that the old 3.0 Knockdown feat didn't allow a counter-trip if you failed your trip check, since it didn't involve pulling or grabbing, just precise hits delivered with nasty brutality.
Orenmir
05-01-08, 10:50 AM I've looked, and I'm pretty sure I'm SOL, but I have to ask.

When I fail my attempt to trip an opponent, is there any way to avoid their chance to try to trip me short of dropping my weapon?

Play a wolf. ...Like the one in your avatar! ;)
Dheran
05-01-08, 04:09 PM If you've got more than 10 ranks in Balance, you can make a skill check instead of a Strength/Dexterity check to avoid being tripped; see page 97 of Complete Adventurer. Since ability score increases are unlikely to keep up with increases in skill ranks, this is a pretty sure trip avoider once you get past the middle levels. Rogues especially can become trip-immune, with Skill Mastery to let them "take 10" on Balance checks, and the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) to let them "take 12" instead. Other classes can do well with feats like Skill Focus (Balance) and Agile.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Novacat 04-28-08, 06:10 AM	I've looked, and I'm pretty sure I'm SOL, but I have to ask. When I fail my attempt to trip an opponent, is there any way to avoid their chance to try to trip me short of dropping my weapon?
Knightblde 04-28-08, 07:34 AM	If you use a weapon, you can drop the weapon. It will state so in the description of the weapon. From the SRD You can make trip attacks with the chain. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-28-08, 12:00 PM	The Combat Acrobat feat will let you avoid any effect that knocks you prone with a successful DC 20 Balance Check.
Metafictional 04-28-08, 12:26 PM	Playing a character that uses Improved Trip a lot, here's the following suggestions: 1) play a Dwarf. Not an option for me either, sadly. 2) Prone Fighting Feat. Absolutely amazing, only problem is the Lightning Reflexes prereq. 3) Figure out how to take the first level of Thief-Acrobat so you can stand up from prone as a free action. 4) there's a pair of boots in the MIC that grants +4 to avoid being Bull Rushed, Tripped, etc. (actually, I think there's more than one item in the MIC that does this, I just know the item I personally want from there are boots). 5) get bigger, via Enlarge Person (or even better, a psionic tattoo of augmented Expansion) which also makes your tripping better. Because who really wants to drop their spiked chain in combat?
mvincent 04-28-08, 01:38 PM	When I fail my attempt to trip an opponent, is there any way to avoid their chance to try to trip me short of dropping my weapon?From the 3.5 FAQ: "Things that don’t need limbs for locomotion can’t be tripped." So (for example) moving via the fly spell should prevent you from being tripped. Another option might be to polymorph into say, a Yuan-ti abomination or somesuch.
Knightblde 04-28-08, 04:59 PM	Well, next time I will wake up then read, rather than read then wake. I read 'short of' as 'sort of'. Disregard my original post which was of no use to this discussion.
Mad_Jack 04-29-08, 02:05 AM	Well this won't help you to prevent being tripped, but... If you've got ranks in Tumble, the skill tricks Nimble Stand and Back On Your Feet from Complete Scoundrel will help you get back up afterward. If you've got 8 ranks, Nimble Stand will let you stand up without provoking an AoO... At 12 ranks, you can get the trick Back On Your Feet which is basically an instant reset button. You're immediately back on your feet.
Metafictional 04-29-08, 03:38 PM	Now here's a fun question. If someone attempts to trip me, but I have Improved Trip, do I: Get +4 on my roll to avoid being tripped due to the Feat? If the enemy fails to trip me, do I get +4 to counter-trip? And if I counter-trip successfully, do I get the free attack from Improved Trip?
ToastedAmphibian 04-29-08, 03:56 PM	1) No 2) Yes 3) Yes
mvincent 04-29-08, 04:02 PM	Now here's a fun question. If someone attempts to trip me, but I have Improved Trip, do I: Get +4 on my roll to avoid being tripped due to the Feat?No If the enemy fails to trip me, do I get +4 to counter-trip?Yes From the 3.5 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070726a): "The Improved Trip feat applies any time you trip a foe in melee combat, even if that trip comes from a special power." (fwiw: you cannot counter-trip a counter-trip, in case it comes up) And if I counter-trip successfully, do I get the free attack from Improved Trip?I would say no because the rules for improved trip say: "you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt" In this case, you would not have otherwise got a melee attack against that opponent if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt (plus, it doesn't seem to fit with RAI, or with what the counter-trip represents).
ToastedAmphibian 04-29-08, 04:51 PM	you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent Your enimes failure to trip you gives you a free atempt to trip them. Thats an attack. Improved trip gives you a melee attack. I dont see how you could possibly argue that you dont get another attack. Now, if you had said that the attack improved trip gives you must conform to the conditions of the orignial attack, in this case, needing to be a trip attempt, then you could have a decent case for claiming that, yes, improved trip gives you another attack, but that that attack must be another trip attempt, which cannot possibly have any effect whatsoever.
Toki_Wartooth 04-29-08, 05:16 PM	Your enimes failure to trip you gives you a free atempt to trip them. Thats an attack.Actually, it's not. No attack roll is made, it is simply a reaction. If someone tries to trip you with a spiked chain and you're stronger than them, you can end up ripping the weapon out of their hands... or yanking them off their feet if they hold on. In the latter case you don't get a free attack with the weapon that you used to trip them... they are still are using it. In fact, you may not even be able to reach your opponent. I dont see how you could possibly argue that you dont get another attack.That speaks more about you than the opposing viewpoint.
Metafictional 04-30-08, 02:40 AM	Hm, I should have realized the first question was a "no"...that actually puts a crimp in my chain tripper's style, since I wasn't allowed to be a dwarf. Question two was pretty obvious, but I wanted to be certain. Question three...wow. That's a tough one, mostly because Improved Trip is bizarrely worded. Wonder what the DM will say...
Merestil Haye 04-30-08, 09:38 AM	The FAQ makes it clear that the intent of the feat is to grant an extra attack whenever you succeed in tripping the target.The phrase "as if you had not used your attack" is just another way of indicating the attack bonus used for the extra attack. Thus I think you would get the extra attack if you succeed in the trip attempt.
Zarith 04-30-08, 03:18 PM	I would say no to the extra attack since you are just making an opposed strength check (there is no attack roll for you) and were not the one that made the initial attack roll. SRD Trip If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you. SRD Improved Trip If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. FAQ (In a question about the use of Bluff) The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack;
mvincent 04-30-08, 04:54 PM	I think you would get the extra attack if you succeed in the trip attempt.That's definitely a reasonable interpretation. Would this be with any of your own weapons you currently wield? Aslo, if you cannot reach your opponent with your own weapons after you trip him, would you then not get to make the attack?
Merestil Haye 04-30-08, 07:13 PM	That's definitely a reasonable interpretation. Would this be with any of your own weapons you currently wield? Aslo, if you cannot reach your opponent with your own weapons after you trip him, would you then not get to make the attack?I'd allow it with any weapon you threaten the target with or, if it is your turn, can draw as a free action and that you can threaten the target with. I would not allow you to move closer to the target before resolving the attack, so if none of your weapons can reach, you lose the extra attack.
Johannixx 05-01-08, 12:42 AM	It may not matter, depending on the DM, but IIRC the Sage ruled that the old 3.0 Knockdown feat didn't allow a counter-trip if you failed your trip check, since it didn't involve pulling or grabbing, just precise hits delivered with nasty brutality.
Orenmir 05-01-08, 10:50 AM	I've looked, and I'm pretty sure I'm SOL, but I have to ask. When I fail my attempt to trip an opponent, is there any way to avoid their chance to try to trip me short of dropping my weapon? Play a wolf. ...Like the one in your avatar! ;)
Dheran 05-01-08, 04:09 PM	If you've got more than 10 ranks in Balance, you can make a skill check instead of a Strength/Dexterity check to avoid being tripped; see page 97 of Complete Adventurer. Since ability score increases are unlikely to keep up with increases in skill ranks, this is a pretty sure trip avoider once you get past the middle levels. Rogues especially can become trip-immune, with Skill Mastery to let them "take 10" on Balance checks, and the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) to let them "take 12" instead. Other classes can do well with feats like Skill Focus (Balance) and Agile.