Awkward situation... What to do!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Awkward situation... What to do!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
J Milburn
05-23-05, 04:06 PM Ok, there are two people, A and B.

A is standing on a wooden crate, and getting a fair advantage in the situation because of it. Person B, standing 10 feet away, makes a five foot step ang attacks the crate in melee, easily destroying it. Person A then makes a dexterity based check (I cant remember what exactly) to land safely on their feet. B then uses their move action to escape from the melee. This would normally provoke an AoO, but as the person was falling at the time, it was ruled they would not .

Im not going to say which way i was arguing so as not to bias your veiw, but i was wondering if there were any appropriate rules or just opinions on whether the attack of oppertunity should have been allowed.

This debate also lost me and another player our dignity as we spent a few minuites lunging at each other with cushions while we stood on sofas....
Lord Schpungus
05-23-05, 04:19 PM as far as I know, you can't 5 ft. step AND move as a move action in the same round. So no, B shouldn't have been able to move away. He still had a non-moving move-equivalent action to use, or taken the rest of his attacks (if he had a high enough BAB)
Jaid
05-23-05, 04:22 PM incidentally, technically A's movement of 5 feet would provoke an AoO as well =P

oh, and i believe Lord Schpungus has got it right... unless there is something to make it otherwise, you can't 5' step and move in the same round.
konrad_the_tall
05-23-05, 04:48 PM As a real life expirenced combatant who has trained under some of the greatest warriors in this contry i can pretty safely say that falling off a crate would distract you enough to allow somone to step safly out of the way, their is no way they could attack you while their feet had just been swept under them and you'd be scrabling in thew air, they'd just be too suprised.

The rules in the PGB are more like guidlines. if somthing doesn' work for you then drop it. But the DM's ruling is final.
primemover003
05-23-05, 04:52 PM The opponent on the Crate isn't falling off the crate he's jumping or tumbling off of it reactively (kind of like a Ride check to dismount safely when your mount bites the big one). He's gonna land before the guy who sundered the Crate gets a chance to move away...

But in this case the crate buster cannot move away until next round, as he made his 5' step already.
chocobochicken
05-23-05, 05:04 PM There aren't specific rules that jump up and grap you for this situation, but here's my best evaluation of it:

Ignoring the fact that Player B performed an illegal movement, I think the situation should have played out depending on how Player A performed on the Dex-based check (Tumble would apply well here). Depending on how the check was rolled, the DM could rule that the fall caused Player A to be considered flat-footed until his next turn, when prevents him from making AoOs and possibly might grant a rogue a sneak attack opportunity within that time. However, if Player A did well on the Tumble check, then he should not be considered flat-footed and he is still allowed his AoO against Player B.

As always, it's entirely the DM's call, and players should take care to avoid dragging out a protest of the decision and interrupting the game. It's best to wait until the session is over and examine it calmly with everyone after the action is over.
J Milburn
05-23-05, 05:07 PM I have obviously misused a 5 foot step here, and looking i the players handbook i see that i have. However, i dont see how the initial movement would have provoked an AoO, Jaid.
I take your point Konrad, but, Person A and B had been eyeing eachother up for a while and something like that was expected. As prime said, they are effectively dismounting.

Is there some sort of feat or action that lets someone attack in the middle of a move, like in this case with no five foot step?
Nolgoth
05-23-05, 07:04 PM You can always spring attack the crate. However doing so will provoke an attack of oppurtunity from the guy on the crate as you leave. Spring attack only keeps you safe from attacks of oppurtunity from the crate in this case. Still it will allow you to keep moving.
Pyromancer
05-23-05, 07:20 PM I'd use a trip attack, rather than an attack on the crate, to knock him off.
Sarhuin
05-23-05, 10:27 PM Uhm. Not to add more questions to this one, but since we seem to be talking alternative tactics. . .what would happen if B bullrushed the crate, attempting to push it back, out from under A? Possible? B would provoke and AOO from A, of course. . .

Also, if A moves his full movement to get on top of the crate (first in initiative) then B moves and destroys the crate. . .isn't it, by the rules, impossible for A to fall until he has 5 more feet of movement (to fall the 5 feet to the ground?) Much like if you move most of your movement then jump, but don't have enough movement to complete the jump it happens next round?

Back to the topic at hand. . . .

Based on what happened I would say that character A should have gotten his AOO [on the rules as presented. . .assuming we ignore the fact B got to move twice and attack ;) ]

If I was adjudicating this encounter I would have had A make two "saves", one to stay on his feet and a concentration check to see if he gets his AOO on the retreating B.

just me .02!

~S
Jaid
05-24-05, 12:34 AM I have obviously misused a 5 foot step here, and looking i the players handbook i see that i have. However, i dont see how the initial movement would have provoked an AoO, Jaid.

no, not the five foot step... that wouldn't provoke anything.

technically, falling off the crate to the ground 5 feet below would provoke an AoO, because that was not a 5 foot step.

so, technically, the guy on the ground initially should have gotten an AoO on the guy on the crate because the guy on the crate moved out of the guy on the ground's threatened space.

so, assuming the guy on the crate got screwed out of an AoO (impossible movement aside), then so did the guy on the ground.

assuming the guy on the crate did not get screwed out of an AoO (ie, he shouldn't have gotten one anyways), he should be counting his blessings he didn't suffer another attack =P

yeah, i know that seems a little bit silly of a situation... but that's the (IMO, excessively literal) RAW.
Nolgoth
05-24-05, 05:49 PM Sarhuin, you can fall more than your movement rate in a round. Otherwise, guys in full plate will fall slower than guys in leather, and barbarians and monks would fall faster than wizards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
J Milburn 05-23-05, 04:06 PM	Ok, there are two people, A and B. A is standing on a wooden crate, and getting a fair advantage in the situation because of it. Person B, standing 10 feet away, makes a five foot step ang attacks the crate in melee, easily destroying it. Person A then makes a dexterity based check (I cant remember what exactly) to land safely on their feet. B then uses their move action to escape from the melee. This would normally provoke an AoO, but as the person was falling at the time, it was ruled they would not . Im not going to say which way i was arguing so as not to bias your veiw, but i was wondering if there were any appropriate rules or just opinions on whether the attack of oppertunity should have been allowed. This debate also lost me and another player our dignity as we spent a few minuites lunging at each other with cushions while we stood on sofas....
Lord Schpungus 05-23-05, 04:19 PM	as far as I know, you can't 5 ft. step AND move as a move action in the same round. So no, B shouldn't have been able to move away. He still had a non-moving move-equivalent action to use, or taken the rest of his attacks (if he had a high enough BAB)
Jaid 05-23-05, 04:22 PM	incidentally, technically A's movement of 5 feet would provoke an AoO as well =P oh, and i believe Lord Schpungus has got it right... unless there is something to make it otherwise, you can't 5' step and move in the same round.
konrad_the_tall 05-23-05, 04:48 PM	As a real life expirenced combatant who has trained under some of the greatest warriors in this contry i can pretty safely say that falling off a crate would distract you enough to allow somone to step safly out of the way, their is no way they could attack you while their feet had just been swept under them and you'd be scrabling in thew air, they'd just be too suprised. The rules in the PGB are more like guidlines. if somthing doesn' work for you then drop it. But the DM's ruling is final.
primemover003 05-23-05, 04:52 PM	The opponent on the Crate isn't falling off the crate he's jumping or tumbling off of it reactively (kind of like a Ride check to dismount safely when your mount bites the big one). He's gonna land before the guy who sundered the Crate gets a chance to move away... But in this case the crate buster cannot move away until next round, as he made his 5' step already.
chocobochicken 05-23-05, 05:04 PM	There aren't specific rules that jump up and grap you for this situation, but here's my best evaluation of it: Ignoring the fact that Player B performed an illegal movement, I think the situation should have played out depending on how Player A performed on the Dex-based check (Tumble would apply well here). Depending on how the check was rolled, the DM could rule that the fall caused Player A to be considered flat-footed until his next turn, when prevents him from making AoOs and possibly might grant a rogue a sneak attack opportunity within that time. However, if Player A did well on the Tumble check, then he should not be considered flat-footed and he is still allowed his AoO against Player B. As always, it's entirely the DM's call, and players should take care to avoid dragging out a protest of the decision and interrupting the game. It's best to wait until the session is over and examine it calmly with everyone after the action is over.
J Milburn 05-23-05, 05:07 PM	I have obviously misused a 5 foot step here, and looking i the players handbook i see that i have. However, i dont see how the initial movement would have provoked an AoO, Jaid. I take your point Konrad, but, Person A and B had been eyeing eachother up for a while and something like that was expected. As prime said, they are effectively dismounting. Is there some sort of feat or action that lets someone attack in the middle of a move, like in this case with no five foot step?
Nolgoth 05-23-05, 07:04 PM	You can always spring attack the crate. However doing so will provoke an attack of oppurtunity from the guy on the crate as you leave. Spring attack only keeps you safe from attacks of oppurtunity from the crate in this case. Still it will allow you to keep moving.
Pyromancer 05-23-05, 07:20 PM	I'd use a trip attack, rather than an attack on the crate, to knock him off.
Sarhuin 05-23-05, 10:27 PM	Uhm. Not to add more questions to this one, but since we seem to be talking alternative tactics. . .what would happen if B bullrushed the crate, attempting to push it back, out from under A? Possible? B would provoke and AOO from A, of course. . . Also, if A moves his full movement to get on top of the crate (first in initiative) then B moves and destroys the crate. . .isn't it, by the rules, impossible for A to fall until he has 5 more feet of movement (to fall the 5 feet to the ground?) Much like if you move most of your movement then jump, but don't have enough movement to complete the jump it happens next round? Back to the topic at hand. . . . Based on what happened I would say that character A should have gotten his AOO [on the rules as presented. . .assuming we ignore the fact B got to move twice and attack ;) ] If I was adjudicating this encounter I would have had A make two "saves", one to stay on his feet and a concentration check to see if he gets his AOO on the retreating B. just me .02! ~S
Jaid 05-24-05, 12:34 AM	I have obviously misused a 5 foot step here, and looking i the players handbook i see that i have. However, i dont see how the initial movement would have provoked an AoO, Jaid. no, not the five foot step... that wouldn't provoke anything. technically, falling off the crate to the ground 5 feet below would provoke an AoO, because that was not a 5 foot step. so, technically, the guy on the ground initially should have gotten an AoO on the guy on the crate because the guy on the crate moved out of the guy on the ground's threatened space. so, assuming the guy on the crate got screwed out of an AoO (impossible movement aside), then so did the guy on the ground. assuming the guy on the crate did not get screwed out of an AoO (ie, he shouldn't have gotten one anyways), he should be counting his blessings he didn't suffer another attack =P yeah, i know that seems a little bit silly of a situation... but that's the (IMO, excessively literal) RAW.
Nolgoth 05-24-05, 05:49 PM	Sarhuin, you can fall more than your movement rate in a round. Otherwise, guys in full plate will fall slower than guys in leather, and barbarians and monks would fall faster than wizards.