B.A.B - armor bonuses - speed stacking [Archive] - Wizards Community

B.A.B - armor bonuses - speed stacking [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zodikry
06-01-07, 01:20 PM Im just working on finishing touches on my char and I had a few questions. Ive been dming and a bit of playing for a good 7 years now. But my group has always been roleplay based, so we never payed much attention to rules...they were guidelines.. So now that im with a new group im learning everything I never bothered to before.
I got it all pretty much down except for a few things that still are perfectly clear to me.

Base attack bonuses. I understand how it works for one class, but im a little iffy with multiclassing. Ive always just stuck to the total of all the classes, not thinking of extra attacks. I read and re-read all the information on tables in the players guide as to how to calculate it all, but im still lost. My char is Sorcerer lvl9, fighter lvl4, Arcane devotee lvl2, bladesinger lvl2, divine seeker lvl2....Total BAB of 12..so how do I calculate my extra attacks. If im correct it should be 12/7/2 but im really not sure.

Also, When calculating Touch ac, you dont calculate armor or shield bonuses. I can see how you would consider 'armor' as armor bonus. But if a bracer has an armor bonus..does it count as 'armor' or misc.

And last question. IF your using Arbane's sword of agility (+2 longsword of speed..blah blah) and bracers of blinding strike (which allow the wearer an extra attack every round as if he were using a speed weapon) Does the speed stack. I know it doesnt if you cast haste...but this is an enchanted weapon plus enchanted gauntlet. In my mind, especially since my char is a bladesinger, I see masterfully skilled fighter with blurred hands.

Thanks for the help in advance!
~Z
Tempest Stormwind
06-01-07, 01:31 PM Base attack bonuses. I understand how it works for one class, but im a little iffy with multiclassing. Ive always just stuck to the total of all the classes, not thinking of extra attacks. I read and re-read all the information on tables in the players guide as to how to calculate it all, but im still lost. My char is Sorcerer lvl9, fighter lvl4, Arcane devotee lvl2, bladesinger lvl2, divine seeker lvl2....Total BAB of 12..so how do I calculate my extra attacks. If im correct it should be 12/7/2 but im really not sure.It's simple, really: Add up the first number you see in the Base Attack Bonus column. That's your first attack. Subtract five. Is the result 1 or higher? Then you have a second attack at that new bonus. Repeat as needed until you get a result less than 1.

Sor 9 has +4, Fighter 4 has +4, Bladesinger 2 has +2, Divine Seeker 2 has +1, Arcane Devotee has +1. Net result: +12. Thus, you have three attacks: +12, +7, and +2.

In short, you got it right.Also, When calculating Touch ac, you dont calculate armor or shield bonuses. I can see how you would consider 'armor' as armor bonus. But if a bracer has an armor bonus..does it count as 'armor' or misc.It's an ARMOR bonus, regardless whether it comes from a forcefield or a plate of metal. Mage armor and bracers or armor create magical armor around you that works just like normal armor in all regards (except that it's weightless, has no check penalty or spell failure, and works against incorporeal creatures). If I want to reach out and touch you, the bracers don't deflect it -- they just prevent me from touching your skin. There's still the shield around you, which I can touch just fine.And last question. IF your using Arbane's sword of agility (+2 longsword of speed..blah blah) and bracers of blinding strike (which allow the wearer an extra attack every round as if he were using a speed weapon) Does the speed stack. I know it doesnt if you cast haste...but this is an enchanted weapon plus enchanted gauntlet. In my mind, especially since my char is a bladesinger, I see masterfully skilled fighter with blurred hands. Speed is speed. It never stacks with speed.

You're using a longsword of speed. You have bracers which can let you make another attack as if your weapon were speed. Your weapon is already speed. It doesn't work.

Best advice I can give you: Read the rules, do what they say. Some 95% of the questions I see on these boards can be solved completely by doing that.
Aggrenox
06-01-07, 02:04 PM Alright Gents, Let me field this one here.

First off. If your total BaB is 12, then subtract 5 from it, and find out if you still have a positive number. 12-5=7 . Excellent! We have 2 attacks! But wait! We can do it again. 7-5=2 . Sweet! 3 Attacks! And we can't subtrant any further.

Base Attack Bonus

A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.

Armor provides armor bonuses. Bracers of armor provide armor bonuses. So, you can't wear bracers of armor and normal armor. They are the same bonuses.

Armor Class

Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It’s the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you. Your AC is equal to the following:

10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier

Note that armor limits your Dexterity bonus, so if you’re wearing armor, you might not be able to apply your whole Dexterity bonus to your AC.

Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC. (If you don’t have a Dexterity bonus, nothing happens.)
Other Modifiers

Many other factors modify your AC.
Enhancement Bonuses

Enhancement effects make your armor better.
Deflection Bonus

Magical deflection effects ward off attacks and improve your AC.
Natural Armor

Natural armor improves your AC.
Dodge Bonuses

Some other AC bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. These bonuses are called dodge bonuses. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.
Touch Attacks

Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

And your Extra attacks shouldn't stack.
gotbrain
06-01-07, 02:09 PM I've always had a problem with shield bonuses not counting for touch attacks. I mean isnt that the purpose to block things like swords, arrows, rays? Couldn't i prevent the ray or touch attack from affecting me blocking it with a shield?

In other words it should be like a wall being in front of me. How about tower shields that count as cover?
Knightblde
06-01-07, 03:11 PM Shouldn't a big wall that you are holding make it EASIER to touch you? It is all about what the designers feel is right. Do you feel that a shield will stop a whip from wrapping around you?

As a sword and board fighter in LARPs, I tend to agree with you on a lot of 'real world' examples. But to give a wizard such a low base attack, then have them go through your shield bonus, just seems painful.

Besides, you have to have some weakness. If you can't ever die, what is the point of living?
gotbrain
06-01-07, 03:22 PM Shouldn't a big wall that you are holding make it EASIER to touch you? It is all about what the designers feel is right. Do you feel that a shield will stop a whip from wrapping around you?

As a sword and board fighter in LARPs, I tend to agree with you on a lot of 'real world' examples. But to give a wizard such a low base attack, then have them go through your shield bonus, just seems painful.

Besides, you have to have some weakness. If you can't ever die, what is the point of living?

Yea from a game mechanic p.o.v. they had to eliminate the shield AC since wizards now have touch attacks vs. the previous editions saving throws. But it just doesnt feel right. It's one of my biggest pet peeves id D&D.

The one that bothers me the most is that there are no combat penalties/negatives for losing HP's. A figher that just lost 99 out of 100 HPs doesnt even notice his state of near death.
KurenaiYami
06-01-07, 03:49 PM I've always had a problem with shield bonuses not counting for touch attacks. I mean isnt that the purpose to block things like swords, arrows, rays? Couldn't i prevent the ray or touch attack from affecting me blocking it with a shield?

In other words it should be like a wall being in front of me. How about tower shields that count as cover?

Shield bonus is just counting the fact that you have a small hunk of metal or wood covering a small portion of your body. The fact that you're using it to actively block things is your Dexterity bonus to AC, which does work against touch.
utilitarian
06-01-07, 04:32 PM Extra attacks from Haste, or anything resembling Haste, never ever ever stack. ever ever. never ever never.
wal9000
06-01-07, 05:31 PM I've always assumed that shield bonuses don't count because hitting the shield is equivalent to touching the person. Touching someone's arm through their sleeve would be considered touching them for hitting the purpose of hitting with an inflict spell, and touching their boot probably would too. A shield is on your arm, and as the rules are written the spell works through it just as well as clothing.

I might make exceptions for certain types of shield bonuses, like the shield spell which produces a shield of force floating in front of you. It would make sense (to me at least) to say that touching the shield isn't as good as touching the person, so the shield can block the touch attack. It states that it applies to incorporeal touch attacks, but says nothing about regular touch attacks, so if you decided to work it that way it would be a house rule.
Merestil Haye
06-01-07, 06:08 PM Also, When calculating Touch ac, you dont calculate armor or shield bonuses. I can see how you would consider 'armor' as armor bonus. But if a bracer has an armor bonus..does it count as 'armor' or misc.I'd like to point out that when calculating touch AC, it does not count Natural Armour bonus either (why should a thick skin help you avoid getting touched?)
risner
06-01-07, 07:28 PM 1) should be 12/7/2
2) bracer has an armor bonus..does it count as 'armor'
3) Arbane's sword of agility and bracers of blinding strike ... Does the speed stack.

1) yes
2) yes, it provides an armour bonus, it is armour, it won't apply to touch ac.
3) no speed enhancement will stack with any other speed enhancement. You (the player) can have a total of one speed enhancement active at any time. Having two speed weapons simply means you can use your speed attack with either of the two weapons, but not both in a single round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zodikry 06-01-07, 01:20 PM	Im just working on finishing touches on my char and I had a few questions. Ive been dming and a bit of playing for a good 7 years now. But my group has always been roleplay based, so we never payed much attention to rules...they were guidelines.. So now that im with a new group im learning everything I never bothered to before. I got it all pretty much down except for a few things that still are perfectly clear to me. Base attack bonuses. I understand how it works for one class, but im a little iffy with multiclassing. Ive always just stuck to the total of all the classes, not thinking of extra attacks. I read and re-read all the information on tables in the players guide as to how to calculate it all, but im still lost. My char is Sorcerer lvl9, fighter lvl4, Arcane devotee lvl2, bladesinger lvl2, divine seeker lvl2....Total BAB of 12..so how do I calculate my extra attacks. If im correct it should be 12/7/2 but im really not sure. Also, When calculating Touch ac, you dont calculate armor or shield bonuses. I can see how you would consider 'armor' as armor bonus. But if a bracer has an armor bonus..does it count as 'armor' or misc. And last question. IF your using Arbane's sword of agility (+2 longsword of speed..blah blah) and bracers of blinding strike (which allow the wearer an extra attack every round as if he were using a speed weapon) Does the speed stack. I know it doesnt if you cast haste...but this is an enchanted weapon plus enchanted gauntlet. In my mind, especially since my char is a bladesinger, I see masterfully skilled fighter with blurred hands. Thanks for the help in advance! ~Z
Tempest Stormwind 06-01-07, 01:31 PM	Base attack bonuses. I understand how it works for one class, but im a little iffy with multiclassing. Ive always just stuck to the total of all the classes, not thinking of extra attacks. I read and re-read all the information on tables in the players guide as to how to calculate it all, but im still lost. My char is Sorcerer lvl9, fighter lvl4, Arcane devotee lvl2, bladesinger lvl2, divine seeker lvl2....Total BAB of 12..so how do I calculate my extra attacks. If im correct it should be 12/7/2 but im really not sure.It's simple, really: Add up the first number you see in the Base Attack Bonus column. That's your first attack. Subtract five. Is the result 1 or higher? Then you have a second attack at that new bonus. Repeat as needed until you get a result less than 1. Sor 9 has +4, Fighter 4 has +4, Bladesinger 2 has +2, Divine Seeker 2 has +1, Arcane Devotee has +1. Net result: +12. Thus, you have three attacks: +12, +7, and +2. In short, you got it right.Also, When calculating Touch ac, you dont calculate armor or shield bonuses. I can see how you would consider 'armor' as armor bonus. But if a bracer has an armor bonus..does it count as 'armor' or misc.It's an ARMOR bonus, regardless whether it comes from a forcefield or a plate of metal. Mage armor and bracers or armor create magical armor around you that works just like normal armor in all regards (except that it's weightless, has no check penalty or spell failure, and works against incorporeal creatures). If I want to reach out and touch you, the bracers don't deflect it -- they just prevent me from touching your skin. There's still the shield around you, which I can touch just fine.And last question. IF your using Arbane's sword of agility (+2 longsword of speed..blah blah) and bracers of blinding strike (which allow the wearer an extra attack every round as if he were using a speed weapon) Does the speed stack. I know it doesnt if you cast haste...but this is an enchanted weapon plus enchanted gauntlet. In my mind, especially since my char is a bladesinger, I see masterfully skilled fighter with blurred hands. Speed is speed. It never stacks with speed. You're using a longsword of speed. You have bracers which can let you make another attack as if your weapon were speed. Your weapon is already speed. It doesn't work. Best advice I can give you: Read the rules, do what they say. Some 95% of the questions I see on these boards can be solved completely by doing that.
Aggrenox 06-01-07, 02:04 PM	Alright Gents, Let me field this one here. First off. If your total BaB is 12, then subtract 5 from it, and find out if you still have a positive number. 12-5=7 . Excellent! We have 2 attacks! But wait! We can do it again. 7-5=2 . Sweet! 3 Attacks! And we can't subtrant any further. Base Attack Bonus A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack. Armor provides armor bonuses. Bracers of armor provide armor bonuses. So, you can't wear bracers of armor and normal armor. They are the same bonuses. Armor Class Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It’s the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you. Your AC is equal to the following: 10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier Note that armor limits your Dexterity bonus, so if you’re wearing armor, you might not be able to apply your whole Dexterity bonus to your AC. Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC. (If you don’t have a Dexterity bonus, nothing happens.) Other Modifiers Many other factors modify your AC. Enhancement Bonuses Enhancement effects make your armor better. Deflection Bonus Magical deflection effects ward off attacks and improve your AC. Natural Armor Natural armor improves your AC. Dodge Bonuses Some other AC bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. These bonuses are called dodge bonuses. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other. Touch Attacks Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. And your Extra attacks shouldn't stack.
gotbrain 06-01-07, 02:09 PM	I've always had a problem with shield bonuses not counting for touch attacks. I mean isnt that the purpose to block things like swords, arrows, rays? Couldn't i prevent the ray or touch attack from affecting me blocking it with a shield? In other words it should be like a wall being in front of me. How about tower shields that count as cover?
Knightblde 06-01-07, 03:11 PM	Shouldn't a big wall that you are holding make it EASIER to touch you? It is all about what the designers feel is right. Do you feel that a shield will stop a whip from wrapping around you? As a sword and board fighter in LARPs, I tend to agree with you on a lot of 'real world' examples. But to give a wizard such a low base attack, then have them go through your shield bonus, just seems painful. Besides, you have to have some weakness. If you can't ever die, what is the point of living?
gotbrain 06-01-07, 03:22 PM	Shouldn't a big wall that you are holding make it EASIER to touch you? It is all about what the designers feel is right. Do you feel that a shield will stop a whip from wrapping around you? As a sword and board fighter in LARPs, I tend to agree with you on a lot of 'real world' examples. But to give a wizard such a low base attack, then have them go through your shield bonus, just seems painful. Besides, you have to have some weakness. If you can't ever die, what is the point of living? Yea from a game mechanic p.o.v. they had to eliminate the shield AC since wizards now have touch attacks vs. the previous editions saving throws. But it just doesnt feel right. It's one of my biggest pet peeves id D&D. The one that bothers me the most is that there are no combat penalties/negatives for losing HP's. A figher that just lost 99 out of 100 HPs doesnt even notice his state of near death.
KurenaiYami 06-01-07, 03:49 PM	I've always had a problem with shield bonuses not counting for touch attacks. I mean isnt that the purpose to block things like swords, arrows, rays? Couldn't i prevent the ray or touch attack from affecting me blocking it with a shield? In other words it should be like a wall being in front of me. How about tower shields that count as cover? Shield bonus is just counting the fact that you have a small hunk of metal or wood covering a small portion of your body. The fact that you're using it to actively block things is your Dexterity bonus to AC, which does work against touch.
utilitarian 06-01-07, 04:32 PM	Extra attacks from Haste, or anything resembling Haste, never ever ever stack. ever ever. never ever never.
wal9000 06-01-07, 05:31 PM	I've always assumed that shield bonuses don't count because hitting the shield is equivalent to touching the person. Touching someone's arm through their sleeve would be considered touching them for hitting the purpose of hitting with an inflict spell, and touching their boot probably would too. A shield is on your arm, and as the rules are written the spell works through it just as well as clothing. I might make exceptions for certain types of shield bonuses, like the shield spell which produces a shield of force floating in front of you. It would make sense (to me at least) to say that touching the shield isn't as good as touching the person, so the shield can block the touch attack. It states that it applies to incorporeal touch attacks, but says nothing about regular touch attacks, so if you decided to work it that way it would be a house rule.
Merestil Haye 06-01-07, 06:08 PM	Also, When calculating Touch ac, you dont calculate armor or shield bonuses. I can see how you would consider 'armor' as armor bonus. But if a bracer has an armor bonus..does it count as 'armor' or misc.I'd like to point out that when calculating touch AC, it does not count Natural Armour bonus either (why should a thick skin help you avoid getting touched?)
risner 06-01-07, 07:28 PM	1) should be 12/7/2 2) bracer has an armor bonus..does it count as 'armor' 3) Arbane's sword of agility and bracers of blinding strike ... Does the speed stack. 1) yes 2) yes, it provides an armour bonus, it is armour, it won't apply to touch ac. 3) no speed enhancement will stack with any other speed enhancement. You (the player) can have a total of one speed enhancement active at any time. Having two speed weapons simply means you can use your speed attack with either of the two weapons, but not both in a single round.