Ba'tilith from Star Treck [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ba'tilith from Star Treck [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zeful
02-04-06, 12:26 AM Okay I was thinking on how to make a new weapon based of the Klingon Ba'tilith, which is a big smiley face or frowny face depending on how you hold it, the only problem is it combines the best qualities of an Axe, longsword, quarterstaff and shield all depending on how you hold it.

For those of you that don't don't know what im talking about I have a picture Ba'tilith (http://www.weaponscentral.net/fantasyswords/batleth.jpg)
CryoSilver
02-04-06, 12:29 AM Like this:

Exotic Double Weapon: 1d6/1d6 x2, slashing. Grants a +2 on disarm attempts. Grants a +1 shield bonus to AC when used during a full defense or fighting defensively.

See, the way I've seen it gripped, you can't put a huge amount of leverage behind it, sinceit would turn in your hand. Nor is very heavy looking, so 1d6 looks good to me. In addition, it is not very conducive to deep or massive cuts, due to it's curved blade; for that and balance purposes, a simple x2 crit, like the sickle. The spikes are an obvious disarm bonus, and no more need be said of that. The Width of the blade and the way it is held make the shield bonus logical as well, though I stole the mechanics from all the main gauche threads. (main gauche just means left hand, btw)
Zeful
02-04-06, 12:40 AM I did think of that at first, but then I realized by swiching to the middle and left/right hand holds you turn it into a two-handed weapon with more axelike stats. Then holding it by left/right hand hold with both hands you have a weapon that can easily trip an opponent (or take off his foot). No offence but if it were a simple matter I wouldn't have wasted your time by posting this.
CryoSilver
02-04-06, 12:50 AM You really want something that complex?

I mean, a spear can be used about a thousand ways, but in the end, it does 1d8 x3 piercing and can be thrown. You can take off a foot with a machete, and you can trip with the flat of a longsword.

If you want it to be complex, design either a 5 level PrC or feat chain for fighters around it.

Ex:
EWP: Bat'leh
WF: Bat'leh
WS: Bat'leh
Bat'leh Wielder: use as statted, or a 2 handed 1d10 x3 slashing with +2 disarm; choose each round
Bat'leh Defense: You now gain a +1 shield bonus whenever wielding your bat'leh, and the bonus goes up to +2 when in full defense or fighting defensively.
Bat'leh Mastery: You may now switch between grips (see bat'leh wielder) as a free action at any time.
Bat'leh Trip: When using a bat'leh as a 2 handed weapon, you may trip with it.
Spinning Bat'leh of Death: When used as a double weapon, use these stats: 1d8/1d8 19-20/x2, +2 disarm, shield bonuses, etc.
Zeful
02-04-06, 01:14 AM no I didn't want somthing complex, it's just has all the characteristics of a tripping weapon, a disarming weapon, an axe, a sword, a shield... wait that gives me an idea, anyone profeicent would be trained in all the weapons aspects. Right? So it would be assumed that it would be reflexive to swich grips for different attack styles you get something like this

Ba'tilith: Exotic two-handed weapon 1d8 slashing damage; x2 critical; +2 bonus to trip attacks; +1(or 2) sheild bonus when fighting defencesively; improved critical increases crit rating to x3 instead of 19-20 x2; the keen quality increases threat on the weapon to 19-20 x2, this stacks with improved crit on this weapon giving a total crit stat of 19-20 x3

Also the only way you disarm someone with it is to disarm otherwise the weapon's to complicated. Thanks alot, have a cookie :cookie:
DarknessEternal
02-04-06, 02:23 AM It should be at least x3 critical. That's a poking-axe like weapon. Look at picks and axes, you'll see x3.
Zeful
02-04-06, 03:32 AM well actually it should have a 19-20 x3 before mucking with it, as it bears many different qualities one being a longsword, sheild, axe, quarterstaff. But that is unbalancing just having a weapon that has an axe critical with a sword critical range without spending feats/money on it, which is why it's designed the way it is.
kraegor
02-04-06, 05:02 PM A two-bladed sword is a two-bladed sword. It just has the hand gaurd for really helping parry, so indeed, I would give it a +1 or +2 on fighting defensively and thats it.
Zeful
02-04-06, 05:38 PM However this weapon is not a two-bladed sword, the entire weapon is infront of you hands(unlike a two-bladed sword in which the blades are at the sides) the only thing similar is the way you hold it, with two hands. That being said it's design allows for tripping. It is not a double weapon becasue it's bulk prevents quick strikes like that.
CryoSilver
02-04-06, 05:47 PM So does an orc double axe, if it were a real weapon, but it's still a double weapon.
Argon_Asimov
02-04-06, 11:51 PM As much as I don't want to start any drama... CryoSilver was dead-on with his recommendation, whereas the suggestion's you, the OP, are making are irrational, unjustified, nonsensical, and bordering on fanboy-ism.

The parts of the weapon that actually hurt represent perhps 40% of the weapon, or less. It has very little mass, and virtually none behind blade. You aren't going to get 3x crit off of that. It should be 20 2x, but you can be generous and give it 19-20 2x.

Furthermore, the "switching hands" thing really dosn't fly. Switching from the right or left hand to the center would be very difficult, and would confer little to no mechanical advantage. Look at the way the blade is proportioned, you are actually going to lose control and dexterity with the blade, and gain no real advantage.

CS's suggestions were generous, keeping in mind that this is fantasy game and some things that are improbable, but "cool" are acceptable. Nothing more should really be allowed for this weapon, both because it would be imbalancing, and because it just plain dosn't make sense.

Secondly, the ba'tleth is simply an impracticle weapon. There is a general principal of design that states: when you combine two machines into one, you get one machine that's bad at two things. Witness: the car-boat, the bayonette (arguable), and the space shuttle (rocket / capsule hybrid). A weapon that combines a sword, an axe, a shield, and god-knows whatever else you've claimed to be in there, won't be the "best of all possible worlds", but rather, it will be the worst.

I'm not going to describe in full the real, mathematical and mechanical problems here, but if you want proof, I will gladly provide it. The issue is: the weapon is not only unweildy and impracticle for blocking or landing blows, but also incapable of delivering any serious wounds. 1d6/1d6, 19-20 2x, +2 to disarm, +1 shield AC fighting defensive is far, far more than generous.
kinjojones
02-05-06, 12:34 AM Considering that the ones on the show were props made from aluminum, it's understandable that'd they'd "look" light and pathetic. The early props were cheesy as was the whole show in the first few seasons of TNG. Later on when they got some production values and all in all took things more seriously around DS9 era they introduced some more fierce looking klingon props like the Ma'kilith and the Sword of Kaliss which while it was still a Ba'tilith it was much more imposing than the common one which was just a carry over from the show's humble and cheesy beginnings. But if you were going to make a "real" ba'tilith in the spirit that it was supposed to be a formidable weapon favoured by a warrior race I think it would prefectly okay to suspend some disbelief and make it tougher than it appeared in the show and and other than it would realistically be.

In the end I'd say it's a double-ended sword 1d8/1d8 with special property +2 to disarm with the option of wielding it like a 2-handed weapon instead of a double weapon allowing for 1d8 plus x1.5 str bonus

-Edit_

Also folks need to stop injecting their "physics" and high falootin' "maths" and "sciences" into our fantasy based game. The Ba'tilith being better than a d6 is no more rediculous a proposal than the spiked chain warranting 2d4.
WhiteHarness
02-05-06, 01:14 AM It's almost like you think this thing would be the ultimate close-quarters weapon. I don't see it as realistically being able to pierce even light armour. If such a design would really be effective on the battlefield, somebody would have come up with it at some point in history.

If somebody insisted on having one in my campaign, I'd stat it thusly:

1d41d4 x2 slashing.
Save-vs-DM
02-05-06, 01:52 AM Actually, in all honesty, I'd actually make the Ba'tilith a normal weapon, not a two handed weapon.

Ba'tilith
Large Exotic Weapon

Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Increment Weight Type
100 gp 1d8 1d10 x2 -- 8 lb. Slashing

You can use a Ba'tilith to make trip attacks. You gain a +2 bonus on all disarm attempts.

How's that work?

Cheers,
Save vs DM
Tinari
02-06-06, 02:06 AM Given looking at that picture, I can't even see how it lends itself to tripping in any fashion. A longsword, axe and quarterstaff look all moe capable of sweeping someone's legs due to focusing more swing into the end that connects. The staff could be used a bit more interestingly but still gives no trip bonuses. Where do you see this trip bonus that it should confer? I can see how it could be used to get more defense, but no more than using an offhand weapon designed for improved defense (IE parrying daggers).

It doesn't really seem like a fierce weapon. I don't care if a 'warrior race' wielded it, as all that implies is they wanted something quick and dirty to get into the battle with, instead of stepping back and trying to make a well thought out weapon. But that's just me.

As a double weapon, 1d4/1d4 x2 crit, +1 when fighting defensively.
Two handing, 1d8, 19-20 x2 crit.

*edit*

Okay I was thinking on how to make a new weapon based of the Klingon Ba'tilith, which is a big smiley face or frowny face depending on how you hold it, the only problem is it combines the best qualities of an Axe, longsword, quarterstaff and shield all depending on how you hold it.

Best quality of an axe is that it has a very large, edged weight at one end which provides a nasty impact. Thus why a clean shot is x3 crit. I do not see the Ba'tilith having the heavily weighted end to put a heavy swing into.

A longsword is an extension of the arm. Facing your opponent it allows you to garner a full 3-4 foot of extra reach. I do not see the Ba'tilith giving that. Turning to the side and fencing allows you to make quick peircing strikes. Again, not on the Ba'tilith.

A shield is a very large, broad striking surface used to catch blows. The Ba'tilith does look capable of that.

A quarterstaff is a two handed weapon in which you can use a variety of acrobatic manuvers and very quick, leveraged strikes. The Ba'tilith looks closest to that, yet still not quite.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zeful 02-04-06, 12:26 AM	Okay I was thinking on how to make a new weapon based of the Klingon Ba'tilith, which is a big smiley face or frowny face depending on how you hold it, the only problem is it combines the best qualities of an Axe, longsword, quarterstaff and shield all depending on how you hold it. For those of you that don't don't know what im talking about I have a picture Ba'tilith (http://www.weaponscentral.net/fantasyswords/batleth.jpg)
CryoSilver 02-04-06, 12:29 AM	Like this: Exotic Double Weapon: 1d6/1d6 x2, slashing. Grants a +2 on disarm attempts. Grants a +1 shield bonus to AC when used during a full defense or fighting defensively. See, the way I've seen it gripped, you can't put a huge amount of leverage behind it, sinceit would turn in your hand. Nor is very heavy looking, so 1d6 looks good to me. In addition, it is not very conducive to deep or massive cuts, due to it's curved blade; for that and balance purposes, a simple x2 crit, like the sickle. The spikes are an obvious disarm bonus, and no more need be said of that. The Width of the blade and the way it is held make the shield bonus logical as well, though I stole the mechanics from all the main gauche threads. (main gauche just means left hand, btw)
Zeful 02-04-06, 12:40 AM	I did think of that at first, but then I realized by swiching to the middle and left/right hand holds you turn it into a two-handed weapon with more axelike stats. Then holding it by left/right hand hold with both hands you have a weapon that can easily trip an opponent (or take off his foot). No offence but if it were a simple matter I wouldn't have wasted your time by posting this.
CryoSilver 02-04-06, 12:50 AM	You really want something that complex? I mean, a spear can be used about a thousand ways, but in the end, it does 1d8 x3 piercing and can be thrown. You can take off a foot with a machete, and you can trip with the flat of a longsword. If you want it to be complex, design either a 5 level PrC or feat chain for fighters around it. Ex: EWP: Bat'leh WF: Bat'leh WS: Bat'leh Bat'leh Wielder: use as statted, or a 2 handed 1d10 x3 slashing with +2 disarm; choose each round Bat'leh Defense: You now gain a +1 shield bonus whenever wielding your bat'leh, and the bonus goes up to +2 when in full defense or fighting defensively. Bat'leh Mastery: You may now switch between grips (see bat'leh wielder) as a free action at any time. Bat'leh Trip: When using a bat'leh as a 2 handed weapon, you may trip with it. Spinning Bat'leh of Death: When used as a double weapon, use these stats: 1d8/1d8 19-20/x2, +2 disarm, shield bonuses, etc.
Zeful 02-04-06, 01:14 AM	no I didn't want somthing complex, it's just has all the characteristics of a tripping weapon, a disarming weapon, an axe, a sword, a shield... wait that gives me an idea, anyone profeicent would be trained in all the weapons aspects. Right? So it would be assumed that it would be reflexive to swich grips for different attack styles you get something like this Ba'tilith: Exotic two-handed weapon 1d8 slashing damage; x2 critical; +2 bonus to trip attacks; +1(or 2) sheild bonus when fighting defencesively; improved critical increases crit rating to x3 instead of 19-20 x2; the keen quality increases threat on the weapon to 19-20 x2, this stacks with improved crit on this weapon giving a total crit stat of 19-20 x3 Also the only way you disarm someone with it is to disarm otherwise the weapon's to complicated. Thanks alot, have a cookie :cookie:
DarknessEternal 02-04-06, 02:23 AM	It should be at least x3 critical. That's a poking-axe like weapon. Look at picks and axes, you'll see x3.
Zeful 02-04-06, 03:32 AM	well actually it should have a 19-20 x3 before mucking with it, as it bears many different qualities one being a longsword, sheild, axe, quarterstaff. But that is unbalancing just having a weapon that has an axe critical with a sword critical range without spending feats/money on it, which is why it's designed the way it is.
kraegor 02-04-06, 05:02 PM	A two-bladed sword is a two-bladed sword. It just has the hand gaurd for really helping parry, so indeed, I would give it a +1 or +2 on fighting defensively and thats it.
Zeful 02-04-06, 05:38 PM	However this weapon is not a two-bladed sword, the entire weapon is infront of you hands(unlike a two-bladed sword in which the blades are at the sides) the only thing similar is the way you hold it, with two hands. That being said it's design allows for tripping. It is not a double weapon becasue it's bulk prevents quick strikes like that.
CryoSilver 02-04-06, 05:47 PM	So does an orc double axe, if it were a real weapon, but it's still a double weapon.
Argon_Asimov 02-04-06, 11:51 PM	As much as I don't want to start any drama... CryoSilver was dead-on with his recommendation, whereas the suggestion's you, the OP, are making are irrational, unjustified, nonsensical, and bordering on fanboy-ism. The parts of the weapon that actually hurt represent perhps 40% of the weapon, or less. It has very little mass, and virtually none behind blade. You aren't going to get 3x crit off of that. It should be 20 2x, but you can be generous and give it 19-20 2x. Furthermore, the "switching hands" thing really dosn't fly. Switching from the right or left hand to the center would be very difficult, and would confer little to no mechanical advantage. Look at the way the blade is proportioned, you are actually going to lose control and dexterity with the blade, and gain no real advantage. CS's suggestions were generous, keeping in mind that this is fantasy game and some things that are improbable, but "cool" are acceptable. Nothing more should really be allowed for this weapon, both because it would be imbalancing, and because it just plain dosn't make sense. Secondly, the ba'tleth is simply an impracticle weapon. There is a general principal of design that states: when you combine two machines into one, you get one machine that's bad at two things. Witness: the car-boat, the bayonette (arguable), and the space shuttle (rocket / capsule hybrid). A weapon that combines a sword, an axe, a shield, and god-knows whatever else you've claimed to be in there, won't be the "best of all possible worlds", but rather, it will be the worst. I'm not going to describe in full the real, mathematical and mechanical problems here, but if you want proof, I will gladly provide it. The issue is: the weapon is not only unweildy and impracticle for blocking or landing blows, but also incapable of delivering any serious wounds. 1d6/1d6, 19-20 2x, +2 to disarm, +1 shield AC fighting defensive is far, far more than generous.
kinjojones 02-05-06, 12:34 AM	Considering that the ones on the show were props made from aluminum, it's understandable that'd they'd "look" light and pathetic. The early props were cheesy as was the whole show in the first few seasons of TNG. Later on when they got some production values and all in all took things more seriously around DS9 era they introduced some more fierce looking klingon props like the Ma'kilith and the Sword of Kaliss which while it was still a Ba'tilith it was much more imposing than the common one which was just a carry over from the show's humble and cheesy beginnings. But if you were going to make a "real" ba'tilith in the spirit that it was supposed to be a formidable weapon favoured by a warrior race I think it would prefectly okay to suspend some disbelief and make it tougher than it appeared in the show and and other than it would realistically be. In the end I'd say it's a double-ended sword 1d8/1d8 with special property +2 to disarm with the option of wielding it like a 2-handed weapon instead of a double weapon allowing for 1d8 plus x1.5 str bonus -Edit_ Also folks need to stop injecting their "physics" and high falootin' "maths" and "sciences" into our fantasy based game. The Ba'tilith being better than a d6 is no more rediculous a proposal than the spiked chain warranting 2d4.
WhiteHarness 02-05-06, 01:14 AM	It's almost like you think this thing would be the ultimate close-quarters weapon. I don't see it as realistically being able to pierce even light armour. If such a design would really be effective on the battlefield, somebody would have come up with it at some point in history. If somebody insisted on having one in my campaign, I'd stat it thusly: 1d41d4 x2 slashing.
Save-vs-DM 02-05-06, 01:52 AM	Actually, in all honesty, I'd actually make the Ba'tilith a normal weapon, not a two handed weapon. Ba'tilith Large Exotic Weapon Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Increment Weight Type 100 gp 1d8 1d10 x2 -- 8 lb. Slashing You can use a Ba'tilith to make trip attacks. You gain a +2 bonus on all disarm attempts. How's that work? Cheers, Save vs DM
Tinari 02-06-06, 02:06 AM	Given looking at that picture, I can't even see how it lends itself to tripping in any fashion. A longsword, axe and quarterstaff look all moe capable of sweeping someone's legs due to focusing more swing into the end that connects. The staff could be used a bit more interestingly but still gives no trip bonuses. Where do you see this trip bonus that it should confer? I can see how it could be used to get more defense, but no more than using an offhand weapon designed for improved defense (IE parrying daggers). It doesn't really seem like a fierce weapon. I don't care if a 'warrior race' wielded it, as all that implies is they wanted something quick and dirty to get into the battle with, instead of stepping back and trying to make a well thought out weapon. But that's just me. As a double weapon, 1d4/1d4 x2 crit, +1 when fighting defensively. Two handing, 1d8, 19-20 x2 crit. edit Okay I was thinking on how to make a new weapon based of the Klingon Ba'tilith, which is a big smiley face or frowny face depending on how you hold it, the only problem is it combines the best qualities of an Axe, longsword, quarterstaff and shield all depending on how you hold it. Best quality of an axe is that it has a very large, edged weight at one end which provides a nasty impact. Thus why a clean shot is x3 crit. I do not see the Ba'tilith having the heavily weighted end to put a heavy swing into. A longsword is an extension of the arm. Facing your opponent it allows you to garner a full 3-4 foot of extra reach. I do not see the Ba'tilith giving that. Turning to the side and fencing allows you to make quick peircing strikes. Again, not on the Ba'tilith. A shield is a very large, broad striking surface used to catch blows. The Ba'tilith does look capable of that. A quarterstaff is a two handed weapon in which you can use a variety of acrobatic manuvers and very quick, leveraged strikes. The Ba'tilith looks closest to that, yet still not quite.