bab and 2 weapon fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

bab and 2 weapon fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
djdeacon
08-08-05, 06:02 AM this is kind of a noob question and i'm sorry for that.... but here goes:

lets say my samurai has a bab of 6/1. With his str mod of +4 and wasterwork katana, his total attack bonus becomes 11/6.

now he pulls out his wakazashi as well, and since it is light and he has the two weapon feat with this combo, his bonus is 9/4 in primary hand, 9/4 in off hand.

my question is what would his full round attack be? katana, wakazashi, katana, wakazashi.... 9/4 9/4? or would it be 9/4/4? or something else all together?

thanks :)
Traevanon
08-08-05, 06:33 AM Two weapon fighting allows you one extra attack with penalties on all your attacks. So in your example the samurai would attack at 9/4 with the katana and 9 with the wakazashi.
SALDAR
08-08-05, 06:41 AM What Traevanon said plus attacks are made from highest BAB to lowest in order. So your attacks would be 9/9/4. When two attacks have the same BAB you can take either one first (PHB pg 143 under Full Attack).
Lord Schpungus
08-08-05, 01:18 PM There is no, nor has there ever been any, order in which you must make attacks. You can attack at 4/9/9 if you really feel like it.
BeyondFated
08-08-05, 01:22 PM There is no, nor has there ever been any, order in which you must make attacks. You can attack at 4/9/9 if you really feel like it.

I'm pretty sure you have to take first attacks first, and second attacks second, ect.

But, I very well could be wrong.
jaelis
08-08-05, 01:28 PM Lord Schpungus is incorrect.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
SALDAR
08-09-05, 10:32 AM From the SRD,
If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first.
This is the passage I am basing my viewpoint on that the same BAB allows you to attack with either weapon first. If you have two attacks from high BAB and a third from TWF then you have two attacks at +9 and one at +4. If you have Improved TWF you have two attacks at +9 and two attacks at +4. You would take the highest attacks first and then the lower ones next. Since the BAB is the same in each pair, +9/+9 and +4/+4, you can make an attack with either weapon first for that set of attacks.
thom2075
08-09-05, 11:00 AM The simplest answer to your question is this:

You get one attack with the katana at +9.
One attack with the wakizashi at +9
One attack with either weapon (ladies choice, heh it's a Sadie Hawkins of death) at +4.

The katana comes first because it is your primary hand (if it were your off hand you wouldn't be wielding a light weapon in the off hand).

If basic algebra is useful to you, keep reading.

Down the line, if you add improved TWF, you'd get one more attack with the wakizashi at 5 less than it's TWF attack bonus for:

Primary @ X -2
Off hand @ X - 2
Either (Extra BAB attacks) @ X - 7, - 12, - 17, etc. (-5 for each add. BAB attack with either)
Off hand @ X - 7

Where X is the original attack bonus for a single attack with that weapon.

If you were wielding a kama instead of a katana, and both weapons were light, you could consider either one primary or off hand and strike first or second with either.

If you had two katanas it would be:

Primary @ X - 4
Off hand @ X - 4
Either (Extra BAB attacks) @ X - 9, - 14, - 19, etc. (-5 for each add. BAB attack with either)
Off hand @ X-9

Again, when the weapons are the same size you can choose which is primary and which is off hand.

Where X is the original attack bonus for a single attack with that weapon.

I played a thri-kreen 4 armed multi weapon monster psy warrior, it can get a lot worse. I hope that helps clarify it.
jaelis
08-09-05, 11:29 AM Thom, I don't think that is right. From your first example, it should be your choice of:

katana at +9
wakizashi at +9
katana at +4

or:
wakizashi at +9
katana at +9
katana at +4

You can choose which order to make the +9 attacks, but you only get one attack with the off hand weapon (if you only have TWF).
Venom of the Yuan Ti
08-09-05, 11:36 AM Of course you could put the light weapon in the main hand taking - on alll attack but getting one better attack, so
+7 wakizashi
+7 Kantana
+2 wakizashi

or

+7 Kantana
+7 wakizashi
+2 wakizashi
thom2075
08-09-05, 11:52 AM I think you misunderstood.

The first attack is katana @ + 9 (assuming it is primary)
The second attack is wakizashi @ + 9 (assuming it's off hand)
Your extra attack due to BAB can be with either, and would be at + 4

Multiple attacks due to high BAB can be with any attack in your arsenal (even a grapple or trip).

Also, I just re-read TWF and you could take either primary or off hand attack first, whichever you prefer..
thom2075
08-09-05, 11:55 AM With the removal of Ambidexterity, neither hand is dominant, so there's confusion about the wording between primary and off hand. Your extra BAB attacks are with anything ready in your arsenal.

So the attack routine with a +6 BAB only requires that the off hand weapon (whichever you designate as off hand) be used at least once (twice if you have Improved TWF). You also have to resolve attacks in order of attack bonus.

It's weird, but I know that's the way it works. If you have a mace in one hand and a longsword in the other, don't have TWF, but have a +6 BAB, you can attack at +6 with one and +1 with the other. The TWF penalties are the balance for the extra attack, the hand or weapon used is arbitrary in 3.5.
jaelis
08-09-05, 01:22 PM The wording of the rules is ambiguous, but I've seen it analyzed in several threads and I was convinced that the strictest reading was that you can't interchange weapons as you suggest. Futhermore, I've seen several statements from Customer Service saying the same thing.

The main game reason not to use your interpretation is that it is actually fairly powerful for a reach fighter or an archer wearing armor spikes, using Improved Unarmed Strike, or a spiked gauntlet (if the DM allows you to let go with one hand w/o penalty). It also breaks the defending weapon property, since you can be armed with lots of weapons that all stack.

I think this is one of the telling points:

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

The bolded section indicates that your regular attacks must all be with your primary hand, and you only get the one extra attack with your off hand.
thom2075
08-09-05, 01:27 PM That makes perfect sense. I'm sure you're correct. Luckily, I'm blessed with a very mature non-munchkin group, so as infrequently as I make it to the boards I sometimes forget how something seemingly harmless can be abused. I think I won't bother rocking my guys boat unless it's becomes a problem. I let them do whatever they want anyway, they just know munchkinny stuff takes the challenge (and hence the fun) out of the game.

Thanks for the info and the chance to brag on my guys.

;D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
djdeacon 08-08-05, 06:02 AM	this is kind of a noob question and i'm sorry for that.... but here goes: lets say my samurai has a bab of 6/1. With his str mod of +4 and wasterwork katana, his total attack bonus becomes 11/6. now he pulls out his wakazashi as well, and since it is light and he has the two weapon feat with this combo, his bonus is 9/4 in primary hand, 9/4 in off hand. my question is what would his full round attack be? katana, wakazashi, katana, wakazashi.... 9/4 9/4? or would it be 9/4/4? or something else all together? thanks :)
Traevanon 08-08-05, 06:33 AM	Two weapon fighting allows you one extra attack with penalties on all your attacks. So in your example the samurai would attack at 9/4 with the katana and 9 with the wakazashi.
SALDAR 08-08-05, 06:41 AM	What Traevanon said plus attacks are made from highest BAB to lowest in order. So your attacks would be 9/9/4. When two attacks have the same BAB you can take either one first (PHB pg 143 under Full Attack).
Lord Schpungus 08-08-05, 01:18 PM	There is no, nor has there ever been any, order in which you must make attacks. You can attack at 4/9/9 if you really feel like it.
BeyondFated 08-08-05, 01:22 PM	There is no, nor has there ever been any, order in which you must make attacks. You can attack at 4/9/9 if you really feel like it. I'm pretty sure you have to take first attacks first, and second attacks second, ect. But, I very well could be wrong.
jaelis 08-08-05, 01:28 PM	Lord Schpungus is incorrect. If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
SALDAR 08-09-05, 10:32 AM	From the SRD, If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. This is the passage I am basing my viewpoint on that the same BAB allows you to attack with either weapon first. If you have two attacks from high BAB and a third from TWF then you have two attacks at +9 and one at +4. If you have Improved TWF you have two attacks at +9 and two attacks at +4. You would take the highest attacks first and then the lower ones next. Since the BAB is the same in each pair, +9/+9 and +4/+4, you can make an attack with either weapon first for that set of attacks.
thom2075 08-09-05, 11:00 AM	The simplest answer to your question is this: You get one attack with the katana at +9. One attack with the wakizashi at +9 One attack with either weapon (ladies choice, heh it's a Sadie Hawkins of death) at +4. The katana comes first because it is your primary hand (if it were your off hand you wouldn't be wielding a light weapon in the off hand). If basic algebra is useful to you, keep reading. Down the line, if you add improved TWF, you'd get one more attack with the wakizashi at 5 less than it's TWF attack bonus for: Primary @ X -2 Off hand @ X - 2 Either (Extra BAB attacks) @ X - 7, - 12, - 17, etc. (-5 for each add. BAB attack with either) Off hand @ X - 7 Where X is the original attack bonus for a single attack with that weapon. If you were wielding a kama instead of a katana, and both weapons were light, you could consider either one primary or off hand and strike first or second with either. If you had two katanas it would be: Primary @ X - 4 Off hand @ X - 4 Either (Extra BAB attacks) @ X - 9, - 14, - 19, etc. (-5 for each add. BAB attack with either) Off hand @ X-9 Again, when the weapons are the same size you can choose which is primary and which is off hand. Where X is the original attack bonus for a single attack with that weapon. I played a thri-kreen 4 armed multi weapon monster psy warrior, it can get a lot worse. I hope that helps clarify it.
jaelis 08-09-05, 11:29 AM	Thom, I don't think that is right. From your first example, it should be your choice of: katana at +9 wakizashi at +9 katana at +4 or: wakizashi at +9 katana at +9 katana at +4 You can choose which order to make the +9 attacks, but you only get one attack with the off hand weapon (if you only have TWF).
Venom of the Yuan Ti 08-09-05, 11:36 AM	Of course you could put the light weapon in the main hand taking - on alll attack but getting one better attack, so +7 wakizashi +7 Kantana +2 wakizashi or +7 Kantana +7 wakizashi +2 wakizashi
thom2075 08-09-05, 11:52 AM	I think you misunderstood. The first attack is katana @ + 9 (assuming it is primary) The second attack is wakizashi @ + 9 (assuming it's off hand) Your extra attack due to BAB can be with either, and would be at + 4 Multiple attacks due to high BAB can be with any attack in your arsenal (even a grapple or trip). Also, I just re-read TWF and you could take either primary or off hand attack first, whichever you prefer..
thom2075 08-09-05, 11:55 AM	With the removal of Ambidexterity, neither hand is dominant, so there's confusion about the wording between primary and off hand. Your extra BAB attacks are with anything ready in your arsenal. So the attack routine with a +6 BAB only requires that the off hand weapon (whichever you designate as off hand) be used at least once (twice if you have Improved TWF). You also have to resolve attacks in order of attack bonus. It's weird, but I know that's the way it works. If you have a mace in one hand and a longsword in the other, don't have TWF, but have a +6 BAB, you can attack at +6 with one and +1 with the other. The TWF penalties are the balance for the extra attack, the hand or weapon used is arbitrary in 3.5.
jaelis 08-09-05, 01:22 PM	The wording of the rules is ambiguous, but I've seen it analyzed in several threads and I was convinced that the strictest reading was that you can't interchange weapons as you suggest. Futhermore, I've seen several statements from Customer Service saying the same thing. The main game reason not to use your interpretation is that it is actually fairly powerful for a reach fighter or an archer wearing armor spikes, using Improved Unarmed Strike, or a spiked gauntlet (if the DM allows you to let go with one hand w/o penalty). It also breaks the defending weapon property, since you can be armed with lots of weapons that all stack. I think this is one of the telling points: Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) The bolded section indicates that your regular attacks must all be with your primary hand, and you only get the one extra attack with your off hand.
thom2075 08-09-05, 01:27 PM	That makes perfect sense. I'm sure you're correct. Luckily, I'm blessed with a very mature non-munchkin group, so as infrequently as I make it to the boards I sometimes forget how something seemingly harmless can be abused. I think I won't bother rocking my guys boat unless it's becomes a problem. I let them do whatever they want anyway, they just know munchkinny stuff takes the challenge (and hence the fun) out of the game. Thanks for the info and the chance to brag on my guys. ;D