BAB over 20? [Archive] - Wizards Community

BAB over 20? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sineous blackspell
12-03-05, 01:22 PM is there more attacks after the 4 at level 20? or do the 4 you normally get just keep getting higher?
jaelis
12-03-05, 01:26 PM Your BAB stops going up after level twenty, so you never get more that four attacks. Indeed, a Wizard 20 will never get more than two attacks, if I understand correctly.
Dćгơs
12-03-05, 01:53 PM you're right in most respects. BAB higher than 20 (like with a 50HD dragon) still only gets 4 iterative atacks with a manufactred weapon. that being said, unless you have a LA for your character, your BAB will not increase after level 20, but you do get an "epic" bonus to attacks. this does not grant extra attacks (as in the case of 21st level wizard, who has BAB +11) but works like BAB in all other respects. that means that if there is a feat or prestige class that your epic wizard wants into and it requires BAB +11, then after level 21, he can go into it, even though he still only gets 2 attacks per round.

sorry if thats confusing, but thats the way the ELH is.
wonlee76
12-03-05, 01:59 PM you're right in most respects. BAB higher than 20 (like with a 50HD dragon) still only gets 4 iterative atacks with a manufactred weapon. that being said, unless you have a LA for your character, your BAB will not increase after level 20, but you do get an "epic" bonus to attacks. this does not grant extra attacks (as in the case of 21st level wizard, who has BAB +11) but works like BAB in all other respects. that means that if there is a feat or prestige class that your epic wizard wants into and it requires BAB +11, then after level 21, he can go into it, even though he still only gets 2 attacks per round.

sorry if thats confusing, but thats the way the ELH is.

With the exception of epic attack bonuses coming in at a rate of 1/2 (so a level 22 wizard would have a BAB of 10 and an epic attack bonus of +1), you are correct. Even if you can get a BAB over 20, no more then 4 attacks. To get more attacks, you will need to rely on magical spells like haste and similar types of magic.
Sledged
12-03-05, 02:03 PM It can get messy if you start throwing in BAB based on monster HD. For instance if the aformentioned 20th-level wizard were to contract lycanthropy, it's BAB would increase due to the addition of animal HD, so it would get a third attack.
Dćгơs
12-03-05, 02:30 PM For instance if the aformentioned 20th-level wizard were to contract lycanthropy, it's BAB would increase due to the addition of animal HD, so it would get a third attack.

i think that would require the player to completely rework the character to see the new BAB, but it should get another attack.

you raised a good point that i forgot to mention in my first post. Hit dice, from whatever source (not from levels- i mean racial HD) always grant thier BAB as normal. classes do until you turn epic. here is where it gets tricky. in casses where a character has a level adjustment (LA), they still progress according to class progressions (not the generic epic one) for attack bonuses and saves until they hit level (not ECL) 20. now that level is class levels + racial HD, but you get the idea. so if you have 8 HD, and a +6 LA, you get to take 12 class levels before you start to use the epic rules for attack and save bonuses, but you also qualify for epic feats, etc. after taking just 7 of those levels (ECL 21).

agian, sorry for the long-winded response.
larry_the_titan
12-03-05, 02:38 PM There is only one way to get more then four attacks in a round by feats. You have to take the Two-weapon fighting feats. Where after taking the feats you need to could have 8 attacks per round. There is a really good reason you dont get anymore Attacks after BAB 20. The reason is that for one of the attacks to match the first BAB without a roll you would have to roll a twenty.
Tyler Do'Urden
12-03-05, 03:25 PM The short answer (the one I prefer) is you never get more than four attacks from BAB alone. You can get more than four attacks with class features and feats, but those are easy to spot.

It would be much simpler if they just said that. Damn this Epic Attack Bonus and its limits and caveats.
Sledged
12-03-05, 03:31 PM i think that would require the player to completely rework the character to see the new BAB...There's nothing in the rules that says or even suggests that you would have to do that. In fact the line that reads "Becoming a lycanthrope is very much like multiclassing as an animal and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice" suggests that it's applied after what ever class levels or other racial HD the character already has. As does the fact that with each lycanthrope entry, class HD are listed before the animal HD.so if you have 8 HD, and a +6 LA, you get to take 12 class levels before you start to use the epic rules for attack and save bonuses, but you also qualify for epic feats, etc. after taking just 7 of those levels (ECL 21).(Makes a sign to ward away the "epic = 20 class levels not character levels" advocates.)There is only one way to get more then four attacks in a round by feats. You have to take the Two-weapon fighting feats.First, we're only talking about additional attacks due to BAB.

Second, you don't have to take T/MWF to get extra attacks, because any two or more armed character can fight with two weapons. It's just that there are heavy penalties associated with it without the feat.

Lastly, the T/MWF chain of feats are not the only ways to get extra attacks outside of a high BAB. There's also flurry of blows and rapid shot.
larry_the_titan
12-03-05, 11:06 PM Flurry of blows only gives you five and you need to take 15 lvls as a monk to get all five. I would like to see just how many attacks you could get in one round if you took all the feats and class skills that give you extra attacks.
Sledged
12-03-05, 11:52 PM 16 levels of monk and 4 levels of any full-BAB class/PrC will give you 4 attack due to BAB plus two for flurry. Rapid Shot gives one more with hurled weapons, though the weapon has to be a monk weapon to receive the benefit of flurry (i.e. Sai and shuriken). The Two-Weapon chain of feats gives three more attacks (four if the character is epic and takes P2WF). And haste or weapons of speed give one more attack. Lastly, the Palm Throw (Ex) ability of the Master Thrower PrC in the CW allows the character to throw two shuriken with one attack roll.

So that's [4 + 2 + 1 + 3 (4 if epic) + 1 = 11 (12 if epic) x 2 =] 22 (24 if epic) attacks with a -4 attack penalty and no strength bonus to damage (a limitation of the Palm Throw ability).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sineous blackspell 12-03-05, 01:22 PM	is there more attacks after the 4 at level 20? or do the 4 you normally get just keep getting higher?
jaelis 12-03-05, 01:26 PM	Your BAB stops going up after level twenty, so you never get more that four attacks. Indeed, a Wizard 20 will never get more than two attacks, if I understand correctly.
Dćгơs 12-03-05, 01:53 PM	you're right in most respects. BAB higher than 20 (like with a 50HD dragon) still only gets 4 iterative atacks with a manufactred weapon. that being said, unless you have a LA for your character, your BAB will not increase after level 20, but you do get an "epic" bonus to attacks. this does not grant extra attacks (as in the case of 21st level wizard, who has BAB +11) but works like BAB in all other respects. that means that if there is a feat or prestige class that your epic wizard wants into and it requires BAB +11, then after level 21, he can go into it, even though he still only gets 2 attacks per round. sorry if thats confusing, but thats the way the ELH is.
wonlee76 12-03-05, 01:59 PM	you're right in most respects. BAB higher than 20 (like with a 50HD dragon) still only gets 4 iterative atacks with a manufactred weapon. that being said, unless you have a LA for your character, your BAB will not increase after level 20, but you do get an "epic" bonus to attacks. this does not grant extra attacks (as in the case of 21st level wizard, who has BAB +11) but works like BAB in all other respects. that means that if there is a feat or prestige class that your epic wizard wants into and it requires BAB +11, then after level 21, he can go into it, even though he still only gets 2 attacks per round. sorry if thats confusing, but thats the way the ELH is. With the exception of epic attack bonuses coming in at a rate of 1/2 (so a level 22 wizard would have a BAB of 10 and an epic attack bonus of +1), you are correct. Even if you can get a BAB over 20, no more then 4 attacks. To get more attacks, you will need to rely on magical spells like haste and similar types of magic.
Sledged 12-03-05, 02:03 PM	It can get messy if you start throwing in BAB based on monster HD. For instance if the aformentioned 20th-level wizard were to contract lycanthropy, it's BAB would increase due to the addition of animal HD, so it would get a third attack.
Dćгơs 12-03-05, 02:30 PM	For instance if the aformentioned 20th-level wizard were to contract lycanthropy, it's BAB would increase due to the addition of animal HD, so it would get a third attack. i think that would require the player to completely rework the character to see the new BAB, but it should get another attack. you raised a good point that i forgot to mention in my first post. Hit dice, from whatever source (not from levels- i mean racial HD) always grant thier BAB as normal. classes do until you turn epic. here is where it gets tricky. in casses where a character has a level adjustment (LA), they still progress according to class progressions (not the generic epic one) for attack bonuses and saves until they hit level (not ECL) 20. now that level is class levels + racial HD, but you get the idea. so if you have 8 HD, and a +6 LA, you get to take 12 class levels before you start to use the epic rules for attack and save bonuses, but you also qualify for epic feats, etc. after taking just 7 of those levels (ECL 21). agian, sorry for the long-winded response.
larry_the_titan 12-03-05, 02:38 PM	There is only one way to get more then four attacks in a round by feats. You have to take the Two-weapon fighting feats. Where after taking the feats you need to could have 8 attacks per round. There is a really good reason you dont get anymore Attacks after BAB 20. The reason is that for one of the attacks to match the first BAB without a roll you would have to roll a twenty.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-03-05, 03:25 PM	The short answer (the one I prefer) is you never get more than four attacks from BAB alone. You can get more than four attacks with class features and feats, but those are easy to spot. It would be much simpler if they just said that. Damn this Epic Attack Bonus and its limits and caveats.
Sledged 12-03-05, 03:31 PM	i think that would require the player to completely rework the character to see the new BAB...There's nothing in the rules that says or even suggests that you would have to do that. In fact the line that reads "Becoming a lycanthrope is very much like multiclassing as an animal and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice" suggests that it's applied after what ever class levels or other racial HD the character already has. As does the fact that with each lycanthrope entry, class HD are listed before the animal HD.so if you have 8 HD, and a +6 LA, you get to take 12 class levels before you start to use the epic rules for attack and save bonuses, but you also qualify for epic feats, etc. after taking just 7 of those levels (ECL 21).(Makes a sign to ward away the "epic = 20 class levels not character levels" advocates.)There is only one way to get more then four attacks in a round by feats. You have to take the Two-weapon fighting feats.First, we're only talking about additional attacks due to BAB. Second, you don't have to take T/MWF to get extra attacks, because any two or more armed character can fight with two weapons. It's just that there are heavy penalties associated with it without the feat. Lastly, the T/MWF chain of feats are not the only ways to get extra attacks outside of a high BAB. There's also flurry of blows and rapid shot.
larry_the_titan 12-03-05, 11:06 PM	Flurry of blows only gives you five and you need to take 15 lvls as a monk to get all five. I would like to see just how many attacks you could get in one round if you took all the feats and class skills that give you extra attacks.
Sledged 12-03-05, 11:52 PM	16 levels of monk and 4 levels of any full-BAB class/PrC will give you 4 attack due to BAB plus two for flurry. Rapid Shot gives one more with hurled weapons, though the weapon has to be a monk weapon to receive the benefit of flurry (i.e. Sai and shuriken). The Two-Weapon chain of feats gives three more attacks (four if the character is epic and takes P2WF). And haste or weapons of speed give one more attack. Lastly, the Palm Throw (Ex) ability of the Master Thrower PrC in the CW allows the character to throw two shuriken with one attack roll. So that's [4 + 2 + 1 + 3 (4 if epic) + 1 = 11 (12 if epic) x 2 =] 22 (24 if epic) attacks with a -4 attack penalty and no strength bonus to damage (a limitation of the Palm Throw ability).