Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Molitor 06-11-06, 11:38 PM	Alright real simple questions here............. Both of these items use 'nondimensional space'. Well, it doesn't specifically read that the items in the bag don't move when the bag is moved. Meaning that if someone has one of these and puts ten potions in there, then drops it off a cliff, the bottles won't smash against each other. Is there gravity in there? Would the contents move when the bag or rolled up hole is moved? If it is another plane of existence could you plane shift into it? Please site page numbers with your responses.
ShinAkuma2 06-11-06, 11:50 PM	The objects won't smash into each other. Anything inside is safe from harm. I can't cite page numbers, because if there were any, you'd have seen them already. There's no gravity...You can't be sucked into a bag of holding. However, if you open up a portable hole, then the gravity is the same as if there was an actual hole on the surface before you. You could fall into a portable hole. It's not another plane...It's non-dimensional space. Planes include elemental planes of Fire, Shadow, etc...The space of bags of holding, and other things like the Rope Trick spell exist outside of those dimensions.
djinni 06-12-06, 10:50 AM	However, if you open up a portable hole, then the gravity is the same as if there was an actual hole on the surface before you. You could fall into a portable hole. right, and as a trap you can then remove the portable hole from the area trapping the unlucky. also it's up to interpretation as to whether or not the hole that you place is oriented the exact same everytime, or if the hole is oriented in relation to the surface. example it's a 10x10x10, look at a d6 the 6 is facing up and is "the hole" if you put something in it and then cover the top and open it again everything is fine, but if you turn the die so the 6 is on the side then open it stuff shifts. the interpretation is if you place a portable hole on the ground the 6 is on the top, and if you place it on a wall (perpendicular to the floor) the 6 is on the side. but what if the 6 stayed on top and instead when you placed the portable hole on the wall the hole was now on the side, say where the 5 is on our imaginary die.
mvincent 06-12-06, 01:23 PM	if someone has one of these and puts ten potions in there, then drops it off a cliff, the bottles won't smash against each other.Correct (because they are on a separate plane). Is there gravity in there?Subject to interpretation. From the Bag of Holding Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_of_holding) : "Even if the bag is filled to capacity the objects inside never damage or even touch one another, which means that a character could fill a bag of holding full of eggs and weapons, for example, without any fear of breaking the eggs." Some believe that the bag's interior is somewhere on the astral plane (and thus following the rules of gravity there). However, the bag is actually effectively it's own demiplane, but it likely uses the astral rules for subjective directional gravity by default: "Subjective Directional Gravity The strength of gravity on a plane with this trait is the same as on the Material Plane, but each individual chooses the direction of gravity’s pull. Such a plane has no gravity for unattended objects and nonsentient creatures. " Would the contents move when the bag or rolled up hole is moved?No If it is another plane of existence could you plane shift into it?Theoretically yes, but this would probably be difficult (i.e. determining the correct forked metal rod for the bag might be nearly impossible... assuming there even is one that would work).
Molitor 06-12-06, 11:07 PM	Or maybe 'Gate'. In either case the bag's 'nondimensional space' could be better explained. And it actually does not mention a 'separate plane' in either of the descriptions, although I know that's how it was in 2ed.
mvincent 06-13-06, 12:21 PM	In either case the bag's 'nondimensional space' could be better explained. And it actually does not mention a 'separate plane' in either of the descriptions, although I know that's how it was in 2ed.As noted prior, D&D uses 'nondimensional space' and 'extradimensional space' as the same term (i.e. both are used in the portable hole's description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole)): "causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being" "Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space." Also, from the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#whatIsAPlane): "Demiplanes This catch-all category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access." Also, here is some more information from the rope-trick spell that might be of use here: "an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes." "Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane"
zzap1990 06-13-06, 03:43 PM	My theory on why the portable hole is different from the bag of holding is simple. while the bag of holding is entirerly sepperate from the plane its on except for the opening while the portable hole is in a sence an extesion of the plane its on taking on the gravity of the current area and oriantation. Why i think there is a bad reaction between them when one is put in another is that a portable holes and bags of holding both have predetermined sizes so puting one in another is like adding more air to a ballon that is already filled to bursting and sence this is using dimensions it all explodes out of exsistance.
mvincent 06-13-06, 05:03 PM	the portable hole is in a sence an extesion of the plane its on taking on the gravity of the current area and oriantation.That was so in earlier editions of D&D, but not in 3.x. From the Portable Hole Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_hole): "In D&D 3.0 and 3.5, a Portable Hole placed on a flat surface did not open into the space behind it, but rather an extradimensional space " puting one in another is like adding more air to a ballon that is already filled to bursting and sence this is using dimensions it all explodes out of exsistance.I think the original reason for this rule is that Gary Gygax just liked messing with his players (especially if they were trying too many strange things with extradimensional spaces).
Dalthbar 06-13-06, 05:16 PM	I always perceived a portable hole to have gravity perpendicular to the plane at which the hole was placed. Thus if you lay it out on flat ground, gravity is "down". If you put it against a tree, the gravity (relative to the hole!) is horizontal. Holding something just outside the hole against the tree doesn't force it to fall "into" the hole. Only placing the object in the hole will make it fall "into" it since the item's then inside the hole and under it's influence. So, you couldn't do something like put a portable hole on the ceiling to have it "suck up" people as they walked into the room. But you could put it up there and use it to hide if you pulled yourself up into it. Now that I think about it - a portable hole on a ceiling with a Reverse Gravity trap set for someone walking over it would be really awesome. Get some small creature (like a gargoyle for instance) to keep an eye out for the trap to be sprung and fold up the hole. Hmmm...
woodwalker 06-13-06, 07:04 PM	i read extra diminsional space as a demi-plane that is acessable by the bag o holding and the portable hole.
Molitor 06-13-06, 08:49 PM	i read extra diminsional space as a demi-plane that is acessable by the bag o holding and the portable hole. I think considering everything printed here I will agree with you(among others). As always thank you, everyone, for your posts.