Bag of Holding in a Handy Haversack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bag of Holding in a Handy Haversack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ILL34GL3
04-04-05, 02:13 PM Does putting a Bag of Holding inside a Handy Haversack cause any adverse affects? I couldn't find any information on this situation.
Andrew_980
04-04-05, 02:34 PM I don't know about 3/3.5 but in the old days it obliterated the bags and threw your stuff into the astral plane. a magic bag and a glove of storing work though.
mvincent
04-04-05, 02:40 PM A Handy Haversack should be treated exactly as another bag of holding for "rift" purposes.

Otherwise, it is up to the DM. Some house rules only have the rift occur if a portable hole and bag of holding are combined (as per RAW). Some have it occur if two bags (or two holes) are combined. Still others have if occur when any extradimensional spaces (like rope trick) are combined.

All methods are supported in the description for Rope Trick, which states:
Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
ILL34GL3
04-04-05, 02:47 PM Yeah the rope trick note (and common sense) pretty much prohibits it. Thanks for the pointer. In the bag of holding description they only mention bag of holding/ portable hole combinations.
Evil Wizard
04-04-05, 02:53 PM Considering that high level parties are almost certain to be carrying around Bags of Holding/Portable Holes/Handy Haversacks, it does seem to make spells like rope trick and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion awfully useless. The rules pretty much suggest that taking your bag into the mansion makes things go boom, even though it's a high level spell for a high level party. They really need to clarify that, although to avoid screwing over the party I'd suggest making an exception for the mansion. The extradimensional rules are just there to prevent abuses anyway.

Putting a Bag of Holding in a HHH is probably as bad an idea as sticking two Bags of Holding in one another. It gets abusive in a really big hurry if you start putting bags-within-haversacks-within-bags to get around the size/weight limit. I'd suggest just tying the bag to the outside of your haversack, or let the barbarian lug it if it's too heavy.
Perun
04-04-05, 04:10 PM Note that, according to the RAW, nothing happens if you put a one bag of holding in another. the bad thing happens only if bag of holding and portable hole are put one in another. The full description is found under both portable hole and bag of holding entries in the SRD and DMG.

One bit of extradimensional info is found under the rope trick spell, and it talks about extradimensional spaces. Neither the bag of holding nor the Hewad's Handy Haversack use extradimensional space -- they use nondimensional spaces instead (it says explicitly so in the bag of holding description, and the HHH has pockets, where "each is like a bag of holding".). OTOH, portable hole is an extradimesnional space.

So:

bag of holding + bag of holding = nothing happens
bag of holding + HHH = nothing happens
HHH + HHH = nothing happens
bag of holding + portable hole = bad thing
portable hole + portable hole = bad thing (according to the rope trick)
portable hole + rope trick = bad thing
rope trick + bag of holding = nothing happens
rope trick + HHH = nothing happens

Unless there's some other bit of info I forgot, that's the way the rules say things work. Anything other would be house-ruling.
TrustTymora
04-04-05, 04:27 PM Note that, according to the RAW, nothing happens if you put a one bag of holding in another. the bad thing happens only if bag of holding and portable hole are put one in another. The full description is found under both portable hole and bag of holding entries in the SRD and DMG.

One bit of extradimensional info is found under the rope trick spell, and it talks about extradimensional spaces. Neither the bag of holding nor the Hewad's Handy Haversack use extradimensional space -- they use nondimensional spaces instead (it says explicitly so in the bag of holding description, and the HHH has pockets, where "each is like a bag of holding".). OTOH, portable hole is an extradimesnional space.

So:

bag of holding + bag of holding = nothing happens
bag of holding + HHH = nothing happens
HHH + HHH = nothing happens
bag of holding + portable hole = bad thing
portable hole + portable hole = bad thing (according to the rope trick)
portable hole + rope trick = bad thing
rope trick + bag of holding = nothing happens
rope trick + HHH = nothing happens

Unless there's some other bit of info I forgot, that's the way the rules say things work. Anything other would be house-ruling.

I never noticed the nondimensional Vs extradimensional wording before. Hmmm...maybe this is what we have been looking for.

So...casting rope trick inside the Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion big NO NO but bringing HHH or BH inside rope trick no prolem. Players will certainly be happy.

Question: If you don't actually spread the portable hole open then no extradimensional space is brought into being. So would PH + PH really be bad if you didn't actually spread open the second one inside of the first one? - you haven't actually created the space until you spread it open...No?

TT
mvincent
04-04-05, 04:56 PM One bit of extradimensional info is found under the rope trick spell, and it talks about extradimensional spaces. Neither the bag of holding nor the Hewad's Handy Haversack use extradimensional space -- they use nondimensional spaces instead (it says explicitly so in the bag of holding description, and the HHH has pockets, where "each is like a bag of holding".). OTOH, portable hole is an extradimesnional space.Actually, that's just a bit of bad writing on WotC's part. The terms nondimensional and extradimensional seem to be interchangeable:

From bag of holding: "opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions."

From Portable Hole: "it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being" and "Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space"
TrustTymora
04-04-05, 05:55 PM Ya, well this issue is really messed up.

The 3.0 and 3.5 rope trick spells read virtually the same.

It is addressed in the 3.0 FAQ.

I know what it says but not sure how it is justified.

TT
mvincent
04-04-05, 06:41 PM It is addressed in the 3.0 FAQ. I know what it says but not sure how it is justified.Ah. Thanks for the tip. In cases like these, the answers in 3.0 FAQ are still applicable. It says:
"It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes.
Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos. Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same mishaps when mishandled.
Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like."
Nuntius128
04-04-05, 08:22 PM If I might ask, what would be the benefits of having a Bag of Holding inside of a Bag of Holding? Bag of Holding reduces the weight of anything inside it to nothing, so you'd just be having a Bag inside a Bag, right? Doesn't make sense to use.
Perun
04-05-05, 11:26 AM Actually, that's just a bit of bad writing on WotC's part. The terms nondimensional and extradimensional seem to be interchangeable:

From bag of holding: "opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions."

From Portable Hole: "it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being" and "Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space"

:embarrass Don't knw how I missed that. And I must have read that description a hundred times, and discussed it with my group. Oh, well. Mea culpa. I appologise. :)

Regards!
ccggenius12
04-05-05, 12:12 PM Nuntius128, the advantage is that the bag you put in the bag can be filled with other things so if this rule wasnt in place, you could have a wizard carrying 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000 times more than a barbarian all in one 35 pound bag. that would be broken.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ILL34GL3 04-04-05, 02:13 PM	Does putting a Bag of Holding inside a Handy Haversack cause any adverse affects? I couldn't find any information on this situation.
Andrew_980 04-04-05, 02:34 PM	I don't know about 3/3.5 but in the old days it obliterated the bags and threw your stuff into the astral plane. a magic bag and a glove of storing work though.
mvincent 04-04-05, 02:40 PM	A Handy Haversack should be treated exactly as another bag of holding for "rift" purposes. Otherwise, it is up to the DM. Some house rules only have the rift occur if a portable hole and bag of holding are combined (as per RAW). Some have it occur if two bags (or two holes) are combined. Still others have if occur when any extradimensional spaces (like rope trick) are combined. All methods are supported in the description for Rope Trick, which states: Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
ILL34GL3 04-04-05, 02:47 PM	Yeah the rope trick note (and common sense) pretty much prohibits it. Thanks for the pointer. In the bag of holding description they only mention bag of holding/ portable hole combinations.
Evil Wizard 04-04-05, 02:53 PM	Considering that high level parties are almost certain to be carrying around Bags of Holding/Portable Holes/Handy Haversacks, it does seem to make spells like rope trick and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion awfully useless. The rules pretty much suggest that taking your bag into the mansion makes things go boom, even though it's a high level spell for a high level party. They really need to clarify that, although to avoid screwing over the party I'd suggest making an exception for the mansion. The extradimensional rules are just there to prevent abuses anyway. Putting a Bag of Holding in a HHH is probably as bad an idea as sticking two Bags of Holding in one another. It gets abusive in a really big hurry if you start putting bags-within-haversacks-within-bags to get around the size/weight limit. I'd suggest just tying the bag to the outside of your haversack, or let the barbarian lug it if it's too heavy.
Perun 04-04-05, 04:10 PM	Note that, according to the RAW, nothing happens if you put a one bag of holding in another. the bad thing happens only if bag of holding and portable hole are put one in another. The full description is found under both portable hole and bag of holding entries in the SRD and DMG. One bit of extradimensional info is found under the rope trick spell, and it talks about extradimensional spaces. Neither the bag of holding nor the Hewad's Handy Haversack use extradimensional space -- they use nondimensional spaces instead (it says explicitly so in the bag of holding description, and the HHH has pockets, where "each is like a bag of holding".). OTOH, portable hole is an extradimesnional space. So: bag of holding + bag of holding = nothing happens bag of holding + HHH = nothing happens HHH + HHH = nothing happens bag of holding + portable hole = bad thing portable hole + portable hole = bad thing (according to the rope trick) portable hole + rope trick = bad thing rope trick + bag of holding = nothing happens rope trick + HHH = nothing happens Unless there's some other bit of info I forgot, that's the way the rules say things work. Anything other would be house-ruling.
TrustTymora 04-04-05, 04:27 PM	Note that, according to the RAW, nothing happens if you put a one bag of holding in another. the bad thing happens only if bag of holding and portable hole are put one in another. The full description is found under both portable hole and bag of holding entries in the SRD and DMG. One bit of extradimensional info is found under the rope trick spell, and it talks about extradimensional spaces. Neither the bag of holding nor the Hewad's Handy Haversack use extradimensional space -- they use nondimensional spaces instead (it says explicitly so in the bag of holding description, and the HHH has pockets, where "each is like a bag of holding".). OTOH, portable hole is an extradimesnional space. So: bag of holding + bag of holding = nothing happens bag of holding + HHH = nothing happens HHH + HHH = nothing happens bag of holding + portable hole = bad thing portable hole + portable hole = bad thing (according to the rope trick) portable hole + rope trick = bad thing rope trick + bag of holding = nothing happens rope trick + HHH = nothing happens Unless there's some other bit of info I forgot, that's the way the rules say things work. Anything other would be house-ruling. I never noticed the nondimensional Vs extradimensional wording before. Hmmm...maybe this is what we have been looking for. So...casting rope trick inside the Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion big NO NO but bringing HHH or BH inside rope trick no prolem. Players will certainly be happy. Question: If you don't actually spread the portable hole open then no extradimensional space is brought into being. So would PH + PH really be bad if you didn't actually spread open the second one inside of the first one? - you haven't actually created the space until you spread it open...No? TT
mvincent 04-04-05, 04:56 PM	One bit of extradimensional info is found under the rope trick spell, and it talks about extradimensional spaces. Neither the bag of holding nor the Hewad's Handy Haversack use extradimensional space -- they use nondimensional spaces instead (it says explicitly so in the bag of holding description, and the HHH has pockets, where "each is like a bag of holding".). OTOH, portable hole is an extradimesnional space.Actually, that's just a bit of bad writing on WotC's part. The terms nondimensional and extradimensional seem to be interchangeable: From bag of holding: "opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions." From Portable Hole: "it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being" and "Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space"
TrustTymora 04-04-05, 05:55 PM	Ya, well this issue is really messed up. The 3.0 and 3.5 rope trick spells read virtually the same. It is addressed in the 3.0 FAQ. I know what it says but not sure how it is justified. TT
mvincent 04-04-05, 06:41 PM	It is addressed in the 3.0 FAQ. I know what it says but not sure how it is justified.Ah. Thanks for the tip. In cases like these, the answers in 3.0 FAQ are still applicable. It says: "It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes. Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos. Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same mishaps when mishandled. Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like."
Nuntius128 04-04-05, 08:22 PM	If I might ask, what would be the benefits of having a Bag of Holding inside of a Bag of Holding? Bag of Holding reduces the weight of anything inside it to nothing, so you'd just be having a Bag inside a Bag, right? Doesn't make sense to use.
Perun 04-05-05, 11:26 AM	Actually, that's just a bit of bad writing on WotC's part. The terms nondimensional and extradimensional seem to be interchangeable: From bag of holding: "opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions." From Portable Hole: "it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being" and "Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space" :embarrass Don't knw how I missed that. And I must have read that description a hundred times, and discussed it with my group. Oh, well. Mea culpa. I appologise. :) Regards!
ccggenius12 04-05-05, 12:12 PM	Nuntius128, the advantage is that the bag you put in the bag can be filled with other things so if this rule wasnt in place, you could have a wizard carrying 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000 times more than a barbarian all in one 35 pound bag. that would be broken.