Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeadEye19 02-28-06, 11:14 AM	Say the PC fighter stands in front of the BBEG, and drops the all-important bag of rats. What happens if the BBEG has great cleave and combat reflexes too? :eek:
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-28-06, 11:22 AM	Some jerk like me comes up and says, "That doesn't work anymore." :P
tarkin 02-28-06, 11:50 AM	In 3.0 officially it worked. In 3.5, officially you can't cleave on a whirlwind. (Hint hint says the evil demon, try one of the following AoO based abuses: Thrown Gerbil, Psychotic Sheppard, Suicidal Mirror Images, Bar Room Massacre) Regardless of which version you play, a Strict or Loose DM will simply House Rule that Cleaves can only be used on targets that were valid for the killing blow, so NO cleaves on whirlwinds or AoO's. A Power DM will outlaw the particularly blatant abuses, but a smart player can still get away with the less blatant abuses (Hint, try Suicidal Mirror Images but only kill a single image each round. Your DM will probably let you get away with it and it avoids the need for Great Cleave) An Anything Goes DM will allow it all.
Romanus_Mortus 02-28-06, 12:00 PM	Forgive my ignorance as to the ways of "creatively using the rules" - but what exactly is the premise of said rats (or mirror images, or whatever else?) By killing something weak with your highest BAB, and then great cleaving, you get attacks against more important foes, also with your highest BAB...is that the idea? Because you could just attack the more important foe to begin with.... :confused: I also fail to see why whirlwind attack should be relevant, since great cleave doesn't have a cap on att/round... care to tell the rest of the class?
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-28-06, 12:03 PM	The trick used cleave + whirlwind to redirect extra attacks to an invalid target. You'd stand next to the BBEG and whirlwind attack, killing the two dozen or so rats and cleaving off each one into the BBEG, getting far more than your allowed number of attacks on him, and at your full attack bonus.
DeadEye19 02-28-06, 12:06 PM	Romanus_Mortus, AoO are made with your full BAB. That's why you use bag of rats. This thread is a joke, of course. I tried to take on the classic, but I didn't know you can't cleave on AoO. hmmm. For fun's sake: Say it's 3.0. Both me ( I'm a DM, see sig, but I'll play along) and the BBEG have great cleave and combat reflexes, what happens?
Romanus_Mortus 02-28-06, 12:12 PM	Oh, it's fine that it's a joke, I was just genuinely curious how it was supposed to work... --- So what brain-dead DM ever allowed it in the first place? (not that I am trying to start a fight, with you just joking and all, but really!) A whirlwind attack is "a single melee attack", and I'm pretty sure it was in 3.0 also - single melee attack => single cleave attempt ....a 5 year old could figure that one out. And how do psychotic peasants or suicidal mirror images have anything to do with anything, lol? :confused: (or AoO's for that matter)
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-28-06, 12:19 PM	Whirlwind attack is a single attack apiece for everything within reach. Apparently in 3.0 it was worded sloppily enough not to forbid extra attacks from cleave when it was used. I'm guessing the suicidal mirror images thing involves having mirror images of your own via magic item, attacking them and cleaving into the BBEG from them.
Romanus_Mortus 02-28-06, 12:31 PM	*shrug* Alright, if you say so, I have little choice but to accept. As far as mirror images and cleaving - it still makes more sense just to attack the BBEG directly, doesn't it - or is there a mechanic somewhere I'm missing out on? Say it's 3.0. Both me ( I'm a DM, see sig, but I'll play along) and the BBEG have great cleave and combat reflexes, what happens? Well, if you're using the broken mechanic just recently explained to me: Whoever wins initiative kills the rats, taking a buttload of attacks. Of course, opening that bag probably provokes an AoO, but the AoO has to be against you. So whoever gets to the rats first, wins, I guess....just to play along and all... :rolleyes:
TekknoMancer 02-28-06, 12:31 PM	From an RPing standpoint, I would also regard this tactic as evil. Mass killing (even if they are just rats) for a few extra attacks doesn't sound like a good act.
tarkin 02-28-06, 12:36 PM	Yes that is correct. If the DM allows Cleaves on AoO's to hit things that are not themselves incuring an AoO, then it makes a lot of sense for a high end attack. Especially when you work it hard. Consider an ambush provided by a high level rogue that has time to set things up. He starts out with say inside a Leomund's tiny hut, with Mirror Image active on him (Wands + UMD) He pops out of the Hut approaches you moving 10 ft or more more (but not charging to avoid charging complications). Then he kills all his Mirror Images, cleaving into you each time. Then finally he takes his last attack against you by a standard action. All of them are before your init, so he gets a huge number of Sneak Attacks on you. Such an attack is incredibally deadly, offering far better numbers than a standard archery sneak attack from the Hut. Yes it involves two spells, but they are LOW level spells.
mvincent 02-28-06, 01:02 PM	I didn't know you can't cleave on AoO.Officially (per RAW) you can cleave on an AoO. tarkin's rule is reasonable, but realize that it is still a house-rule (as he indicated).
jaelis 02-28-06, 01:06 PM	Tarkin, I get the point, but I think allowing a character to take an AoO on each of his own mirror images is a considerably further stretch of the rules than allowing cleaves off an AoO. Not that I disagree with your claim that the cleave thing is bad, just that this particular example of abuse doesn't do it for me.
TekknoMancer 02-28-06, 01:14 PM	The mirror image trick could be discounted since, IIRC, cleave requires you to do enough DAMAGE to drop a foe. Since mirror image is an illusion, one could say that it takes no damage, doesn't drop, and doesn't die. You can't use destroying an illusion to get a cleave attack any more than you could use a trip to cleave with.
Romanus_Mortus 02-28-06, 02:17 PM	Tarkin et al - Your mirror images are also not attempting to move within your threatened area - no AoO on them. --- Also - as to the rats -since the rats would be in your threatened area, and the BBEG's threatened area, how do you decide who gets to take their AoO's first.....or is that what you were asking in the first place.... :shifty: Tricky.... of course - the DM controls the rats - so he could just say the rats don't attempt to move out of the 5' spaces, or they all take full withdraw actions to leave your threatened area. So it still dun pass muster. Oh well - sure am glad they "fixed" whirlwind attack so this isn't an issue anymore :rolleyes:
FLAvatar 02-28-06, 03:07 PM	Even if the entire gaming table were to lose their minds enough that they reached the point where they agreed you could attack your own mirror image, it doesn't gain the attacker any additional attacks. "Killing" a mirror image would take an attack - or in your example the only attack available to the rogue - and thus net the same number of attacks on his actual opponents. All the person doing such a maneuver gains is less mirror images. Mirror images somehow provoking attacks of opportunity is just foolishness, they no more do anything to provoke an attack of opportunity than one's own shadow. If these sorts of shenanigans are acceptable to the potential cleave abuser, they deserve the 1-in-whatever chance to stab themselves.
mvincent 02-28-06, 03:47 PM	Assuming you can cleave off a mirror image (which is a safe assumption in most games), the mirror image thing can actually work. Here's what I've done before (just once, to amuse my DM): 1) Condition the party's simple barbarian to hate the image of a certain person and to destroy this person if he appears during combats. Explain to the barbarian that only one hit at a time will work on this person, even if he sees multiple images. 2) During combat, the party's wizard disguises himself as the hated person (using a hat of disguise), then casts mirror image. 3) The wizard then starts provoking multiple AoO's from the barbarian, who has combat reflexes, and is engaged with another opponent. 4) Even if you rule that the mirror images have to stay in the same square as the caster, the barbarian will still (usually) cleave an image and so get an extra attack on his main opponent.
Romanus_Mortus 02-28-06, 04:09 PM	Assuming you can cleave off a mirror image (which is a safe assumption in most games), the mirror image thing can actually work. Here's what I've done before (just once, to amuse my DM): 1) Condition the party's simple barbarian to hate the image of a certain person and to destroy this person if he appears during combats. Explain to the barbarian that only one hit at a time will work on this person, even if he sees multiple images. 2) During combat, the party's wizard disguises himself as the hated person (using a hat of disguise), then casts mirror image. 3) The wizard then starts provoking multiple AoO's from the barbarian, who has combat reflexes, and is engaged with another opponent. 4) Even if you rule that the mirror images have to stay in the same square as the caster, the barbarian will still (usually) cleave an image and so get an extra attack on his main opponent. Well...if you go through all that trouble, then you deserve what you get. Which, in a perfect world, will be a mortally wounded caster, because no raging barbarian conditioned to hate someone is going to bother with "one attack at a time" :D If rage left you rational, it wouldn't be rage.
Tony Vargas 02-28-06, 04:28 PM	What happens if the BBEG has great cleave and combat reflexes too? :eek:Interestingly, there are no rules for resolving who gets to take an AoO first. It rarely matters - in fact, that it matters in the posited situation only further illustrate that it's a stupid loophole in need of immediate closure. I suppose if it does come up, you could run a mini-initiative sequence, with everyone who could take the AoO rolling an 'initiative' check only for that purpose, then taking thier AoOs in the resulting order, for as long as the provoking individual lasts...
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-28-06, 04:46 PM	Thrown Gerbil, Psychotic Sheppard Hopefully, you'll have party members (http://www.ledgermaincomics.com/comics/main/comic026.htm) to tell you how dumb you'd look doing them.
mvincent 02-28-06, 05:10 PM	Well...if you go through all that trouble, then you deserve what you get. Which, in a perfect world, will be a mortally wounded caster, because no raging barbarian conditioned to hate someone is going to bother with "one attack at a time" :D Yeah. This was actually done when the mirror images didn't have to be in the square as the caster (making it much easier to send them one at a time to their doom). If I were to try this now, I'd probably just have the caster look like the current opponent the barbarian was fighting, except with a tower shield (making the less shielded opponent a more desireable target). It's just silly fun anyway... no DM would allow this trick more than once (if that).
Chaser 03-01-06, 12:23 AM	Outdated explanation removed.
mvincent 03-01-06, 11:34 AM	I think you are missing the primary idea behind the tactic..You seem to be refering to the 3.0 bag-o-rats tactic. In 3.5 you can no longer cleave during a whirlwind attack. Attacks of Opportunity really have little to nothing to do with the bag-o-rats tactic.The new 3.5 bag-o-rats tactic now involves AoO's to get bonus cleave attacks (since the old method is no longer viable). The rules still allow cleaves from an AoO.
FLAvatar 03-01-06, 01:13 PM	Except that taking an attack on a rat just to take an AOO on the opponent doesn't net you additional attacks, so the end result is the same as taking all your regular attacks on your opponent, just with more dead rats involved. If the 3.5 "tactic" is relying on the rats running away to provoke AOOs, there are more ways for the rats to avoid provoking than there are ways to make them provoke. There are quite a few rules that neuter these alleged abuses, but the only things that end up being abused are the rules that are getting ignored. The monsters should always metagame at least as much as the players, so this flawed tactic is simple to either merely defeat (if the DM is feeling generous) or reverse.
jaelis 03-01-06, 01:57 PM	Here's what I would consider a "legitimate" way to abuse the cleave thing. Start with the barbarian fighting the BBEG. Have the party wizard cast a silent image of a bunch of wraiths, and have them pretend to fly up and swirl around the barb. The barbarian of course is unaware of this plan, and fails his will save to disbelieve. He can certainly take an AoO on a silent image. You can cleave off a mirror image, so it seems pretty tight to claim you can cleave off an image as well. But if you want to be careful, the wizard can made the wraith dissolve or whatever normally happens when a wraith dies... it's plausible to say that the barbarian would not auto-disbelieve in this case. So from the barbarian's point of view, he just dropped an enemy and should get to cleave.
mvincent 03-01-06, 02:13 PM	If the 3.5 "tactic" is relying on the rats running away to provoke AOOs, there are more ways for the rats to avoid provoking than there are ways to make them provoke.Yes, that is the tactic. It does indeed have holes in it. However your statement, while correct, has been discussed before and people have found ways around that. While some of these solutions involve neither rats nor a bag, the title is kept for reference. The monsters should always metagame at least as much as the playersNo. Not always. But that is a different topic.
Tony Vargas 03-01-06, 03:14 PM	Except that taking an attack on a rat just to take an AOO on the opponent doesn't net you additional attacks, so the end result is the same as taking all your regular attacks on your opponent, just with more dead rats involved. That'd be the result of taking your regular attacks 'through' rats or other throwaway foes - and it's not a problem, in fact, it's kinda what Great Cleave is good for at higher levels: clearing out the mooks without degrading your performance vs the real foe. AoOs, however, are /extra/ attacks. If you have Cleave, and a faux foe provokes an AoO, and you kill it, you just got an AoO against a real foe who did nothing to provoke it. It's an extra attack over and above your regular attack. If it's Great Cleave and Combat Reflexes, the result is mulitplied by your DEX bonus +1.
Chaser 03-01-06, 03:58 PM	You seem to be refering to the 3.0 bag-o-rats tactic. In 3.5 you can no longer cleave during a whirlwind attack. Yes, I was referring to the old tactic, and I was aware of the 3.5 'no more cleave during a whirlwind." That the tactic had been updated was what I had not picked up on. The new 3.5 bag-o-rats tactic now involves AoO's to get bonus cleave attacks (since the old method is no longer viable). The rules still allow cleaves from an AoO. Yep, they do. Thank you.
Clawhound 03-01-06, 04:31 PM	If you rule that the bag of rats is a swarm, then it all falls apart. You still have other abuses, but a reasonable DM will say, "That's #### up," and rule it out. Rule 0 exists so that you can enable reasonable things and stop unreasonable things.
Tony Vargas 03-01-06, 07:33 PM	If you rule that the bag of rats is a swarm, then it all falls apart. That'd have to be a bag 'o holding o' rats - a 'swarm' of tiny critters is a minimum of several hundred individuals, IIRC.
BW0222 03-01-06, 11:38 PM	DeadEye19, >Say the PC fighter stands in front of the BBEG, and drops the all-important >bag of rats. >What happens if the BBEG has great cleave and combat reflexes too? This one is easy. Follow all the rules to the letter and use common sense. PC: I take out my bag of six rats. DM: What is the bag made out of? PC: Just a normal sack. DM: Ok, it's a move equivalent. PC: I pour out the rats. DM: It's appears empty and you notice several holes in it. The rats chewed through it hours ago. Ogre attacks, you take 21 hit points of damage. ... PC: I take out my chain mail bag of rats. DM: Ok, move equivalent. PC: I pour them out. DM: Standard action. Several dead and bloody rats fall out. Appearantly, they killed each other being trapped for hours in a chain bag being violenty tossed around. However, you can feel one or two moving inside, but they appear to be clinging to the inside of the bag. PC: Well I shake them out. DM: Well, that is a full round action. If you start it this round, next round it will take part of next round also. It also provokes an AoO. ... PC: I take out my steal box with six separate rat compartments. DM: How heavy is that? PC: About 5lbs. DM: Ok, what it the lid like? PC: Simple hinged lid with air holes. DM: Ok. PC: I pour out the rats. DM: I'll say that would be a full round action to open a container and pour it out. It provokes and requires two hands if you want to both open it while hold it. ... PC: I have my cohort Bob open up the rat dispensing canister next to me. DM: Bob doesn't go on your initiative. PC: Ok, I ready an action to hit the rats when Bob does so on his initiative. DM: Alright. ... DM: Ogre's initiative. Does a 24 hit you? ... DM: Bob tosses out the rats. Your readied actions goes. PC: Ok, I hit the rat. DM: It dies. PC: And now I cleave into the ogre. DM: Ok. PC: Now, I cleave into them when they move through my square. ... DM: The rats each take a withdraw action and head for the nearest dark corner. You don't get any AoOs. ... (above), accept Bob tosses the rats into the PCs square. DM: Ok, the rats are in your square, but they don't appear to be moving. They are using you as soft cover though and readying actions to move if attacked. Several appear to be grappling your pant legs. PC: I shake and make scary noises to make the rats move away. DM: Give me an intimidate check. PC: 18. DM. Good enough. The rats panic. Three rats only move 5' (since they had gone total defense), the rest do withdraw. PC: Good, since they are in my square they still draw an AoO as they leave the next square right? DM: Yes. The two withdrawing do provoke as they leave their second square of movement. PC: Great I use combat reflexes and hit one. DM: Just a movement. The ogre also has combat reflexes and threatens the rat's squares also. Since your readied an action for Bob's initiative, the ogre has a high initiative, so his AoO goes first. He hits the rat, it dies and he cleaves into you. Personally, I'd pay for the pizza the night any one of my group tries such a thing. I figure by the time they even got it set-up they would have gone through as many rounds as attacks which they might actually get from the tactic.
FLAvatar 03-02-06, 02:10 PM	Yeah, it wouldn't really be a swarm. Rats are just "Tiny," so you could only fit 4 of them in a 5' square. Plus you couldn't put more than 4 of them in anything smaller than you could put a human (or other medium creature) Getting more than 3 in a normal sack would require Ye Olde Mystic Cuisinart.
mvincent 03-02-06, 02:41 PM	Rats are just "Tiny," so you could only fit 4 of them in a 5' square.The swarm rules technically place almost a hundred in one 5' square. Plus you couldn't put more than 4 of them in anything smaller than you could put a human (or other medium creature)While that might be so in the swallow whole rules or some other D&D measurements, that generally isn't correct. Each size difference should more correctly be multiplied by eight instead of two. A container that could hold a medium creature could probably hold 64 tiny creatures.
DeadEye19 03-02-06, 04:33 PM	Many forget that the rats would not take withdraw actions, they will run like hell. It's like when my cat caught a mouse, and droped it just for fun. The mouse ran for his life. Thus, it provoked AoO. The cat used it to grab it in it's mouth again. Good thing I wasn't 5 feet from the cat. It would kill the mouse and used it's cleave on me. I rescued the above mouse, in case you wondered. My cat had it's fun.
FLAvatar 03-02-06, 06:55 PM	Each size difference should more correctly be multiplied by eight instead of two. A container that could hold a medium creature could probably hold 64 tiny creatures. Are you only talking about swarms mvincent? Because it seems in general that isn't how it works for individual critters taken in groups. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2½ feet across, so four can fit into a single square A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square BUT You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless Even if the volume requirements work out via a rule I can't find, the weight may make it unfeasable. Those same 100 rats weigh in at least 100 (by MM, not real life, obviously) and the DM is well within his rights increasing that weight to 800 or so (again, per tiny creatures topping out at 8lbs)
mvincent 03-02-06, 07:20 PM	Are you only talking about swarms mvincent? Because it seems in general that isn't how it works for individual critters taken in groups.I'm merely talking about overall mass when crammed into a bag. Per the reduce person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm) spell, each decrease in size category halves the creatures height, length, and width and divides its weight (i.e. mass) by 8. Thus a bag that can fit one medium object could fit 64 tiny objects (when all three dimensions are considered).
FLAvatar 03-02-06, 09:37 PM	ah, I get it. thanks!