Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tarkin 04-21-05, 03:16 PM	Higher level version of Bag of Tricks, with creatures that are actually helpfull instead of just annoying. Bag of Tricks (BLACK) Pre req: CL 11, summon nature’s ally VI, Price????? 0-30%: Rust Monster 31-50%: Gray Ooze 51-70%: Green Slime 71-80%: Swarm of Centipedes 81-94%: Brown Mold 95-100%: Yellow Mold So what do you guys think about it, what price should it be?
Yobgod Ababua 04-21-05, 04:52 PM	I think your selections are a little -too- good, perhaps. They seem distinctly better than what's available from either SM or SNA, and definately more utilitarian. Note that the bags generally produce critters that are weaker than what the listed pre-req of SNA can produce. In the case of the grey bag, all critters are weaker than even SNA-1s list. The rust bag has 45% SNA-II critters (wolverine, black bear), 30% SNA-I (wolf) and 25% unknown (boar). The tan bag has 10% SNA-V (rhino), 40% SNA-IV (tiger, brown bear), 30% SNA-III (lion) and 20% unknown (heavy warhorse). If we assume that the boar is an SNA-III equivalent and the warhorse is an SNA-II equivalent, I can almost make the numbers work... but not quite. (Note that if the boar is SNA-III, the required caster level is in fact the caster level needed for the highest level creature present.) I suspect that they might use staff-like pricing, counting each different possible animal as an additional power, multiplied by it's %chance or occurance. That method should, at least, generate a reasonable price for alternate bags. In your case, since there is no 'summon rust monster' or 'summon ooze' spells that I know of, you'll have even more work to do in determining balance.
tarkin 04-21-05, 05:22 PM	First of all, the main thing I am looking for is a price. Everything can be priced. If you think this is way too powerfull, give me a price of 150,000 gp, or something like that (Note, I think that is out of line - it is at most worth 15,000). I am willing to price it more expensive than the total crap ones they already created, I already bumped the caster level up some. You are correct when you state it is better than the regular bags. The regular bags are useless. Entirely useless. Why? Because the creatures are not going to be effective. The creatures I am letting people summon are at most 6 CR, not that strong, but have special abilities that make them worth it. And you are also correct when you stated that things I listed were not summonable. But I believe that is irrelevant. What is relevant is how powerfull they are. I choose low CR creatures with unique abilities that still make them worth summoning. You do not have to create a spell to value them, just think a bit about how powerfull the things I am summoning are as compared to other creatures. Look at their CR's, HD, special abilities. What do you think the thing I created is worth. P.S. As for pricing method - they definitely did NOT use anything remotely like "Staff". One of the aspects of the bag that I kept is it is random what you get - therefore additional creatures reduce the value of it, instead of increasing the value. Staves are not random, you get to choose what you spend the charges on and that is why more choices = more money.
Yobgod Ababua 04-21-05, 10:14 PM	Everything can be priced. Indeed, but to do more than merely price it arbitrarily, we need some sort of starting reference point. Using summonable creatures would have made it easier... rust monster: CR3, rusts metal DC17 grey ooze: CR4, oozy, dissolves armor and weapons DC16 centipede swarm: CR4, immune to weapons, DC13 poison Ok, the problem I have with these is that there are many opponents for which any one of these will pretty well end the encounter, making them disproportionately powerful compared to their CR. PCs are typically much more "prepared for anything" than other encounters and will have some ability to cope with things that are, for example, immune to normal weapon damage. Additionally, only the rust monster isn't immune to critical hits and most of them have tremor or blindsense... making this a wonderful "anti-rogue" bag. The fact that you chose these specifically very difficult to properly balance creatures is why it's hard to come up with a price. Against even high-CR creatures with only natural weaponry that centipede swarm is a guaranteed 2d6 per round unless they flee. But anyway, let's see what else we can compare with... ah! Figurines... Bag: 10 uses/week for 10 minutes Griffon: 2/week for 6 hours Lions: 2/week for 1 hour Travail Goat: 1/month for 12 hours Terror Goat: 1/2 weeks for 3 hours Elephant: 4/month for 24 hours Dog: 1/week for 6 hours Most of the useful ones without fancy extra stuff cost just over 15,000g. The bag approach is definately more favorable for combat-oriented (as opposed to travel) creatures (like you have) as you're more likely to have a use available for several encounters each week. Given that, combined with the potentially unstoppable nature of your creatures in many circumstances, It's pretty clearly worth at least 16,000g (compare it to those lions at 16,500g). The only reasonable way to price this, IMO, is to try to figure out when PCs become high enough level that using this would be an amusing but suboptimal choice, and price it so that earlier levels can't really afford it. Hmmm, maybe we should compare it with the censer of summoning air elementals... large elementals are CR5 (close to yours) and have similar special abilities. The full-round casting time seems to partial cancel out the additional ability to burn super incense for larger elementals, with an extra discount for it being unwieldy to set up. The bag is limited to 10/week, but as long as players can exert any control over their own schedule that's not going to keep them from being able to use it almost every encounter, so that's not a substantial drawback. Add in that it's only a standard action to activate, subtract the randomness factor, and we're actually looking pretty comparable. I'll throw in a 20% discount for your critters being slightly less useful on average and there's your price... 80,000gp. therefore additional creatures reduce the value of it They reduce the value if they are less powerful than the others, yes... and increase it if they are more powerful. Note that when I say that each creature gets multiplied by it's percent chance of occurring, that means that the total will never be more than an item that summoned one creature of the strongest type. By "Staff-like", I was implying that each additional creature after the first would have it's relative cost reduced by 25% or 50% (like spells in a staff), so more creatures would reduce the overall cost.
epifreak 04-22-05, 02:33 AM	Hmm....would this work for getting some kind of multiplier? (Monster1^CR)*(%chance of getting it) + (M2^CR)*% + (Mn^CR)*% If that makes sense to anyone, try running that and seeing how that prices it. I don't have a MM handy, else I'd do it. If that seems to work well, or does with some tweaking, that would let you quickly and easily price any of these bags you want. Also, isn't there the risk factor that if you summon a rust monster or other unintelligent monster, it'll turn on you rather than your opponent?
Nuntius128 04-22-05, 02:39 AM	If I may interject, what's annoying about summoning a Rhinoceros?
epifreak 04-22-05, 03:03 AM	If I may interject, what's annoying about summoning a Rhinoceros? They look funny and smell bad :P
The_Ditto 04-22-05, 07:41 AM	For all those who do not know how to use a bag of tricks "properly" .. may I humbly refer you to the following: Acquiring a Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=130) Hors d'oeuvres (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=144) Interruption (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=146) Ambush (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=163) Uh .. oops? (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=167) :P
tarkin 04-22-05, 09:24 AM	Some of you fail to recognize the problem that randomness does. It is NOT important that everything is powerfull - what matters is that most things are only helpfull in certain situations. For example, if you are facing a non-metal creature then the 30% chancde for the Rust monster is a Horrible result. You are facing a nice soldier with tons of metal. He is 45 ft away, well within charging distance. You REAALLY want the Rust monster. But it only has a 30% chance. You reach in and pull out... Green Slime instead. Whoops, it is daylight. Bye bye Green slime. Shed a tear for it. Try again, Grey Oooze. Cool. Too bad you can only throw it 20 ft and the ooze can only move 10ft. Maybe the Soldier will not make his spot check. Swarm of Centipedes Not quite in range, yet, but hey, at least if the fighter type fails on of his Fort DC 13 you will affect him. Good luck, afgter all Fighters tend to have great Forts. Yellow mold - sunlight makes it dormant again. Brown mold. It can't move. Too bad you can't get with 5ft of it either. ok. 45 feet away, in sunlight, the item has a 30% to be very helpfull, and another 30% chance to be slightly usefull. Everything else is not worth the standard action.
Yobgod Ababua 04-22-05, 02:08 PM	Hmm... I missed the creatures that don't work in sunlight. I was having trouble locating green slime and the molds in the SRD... stupid lack of an index... Incidently, even if the fighter makes his fort save against the centipedes, he's unlikely to be able to avoid the 2d6 automatic damage every round except by fleeing. And actually, it -is- still important that everything is powerful in a particular circumstance. Generally in pricing items you have to consider them in the most favorable circumstances they can normally be used. Your creatures are more useable indoors and within 20'-30' of an opponent, so they can effect them immediately, so we should assume that smart PCs will use them that way. That they are less effective outside, during the day, when the foe is farther away than you can toss, isn't really a limitation because PCs can generally choose to work around it. Whenever players I know run into a situation where a spell or item has at least a 40% chance of ending the encounter, they always do it. Always. At what level would you think it wouldn't be unbalancing to have?