Balance issues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balance issues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheNoblefool
12-04-05, 11:23 PM Just on the side. . .
If you fall from say 20 feet, and you FALL not jump (thus taking 2d6 of damage) could you make both a jump check AND a tumble check to negate fall damage?

on to the main topic, does anyone aside from me find that Archery based characters are much too weak as the game goes on? The only thing they really have going for them is that they can fire one heck of a long distance, and against something with damage reduction 3/cold iron or 5/magic or something similar, without proper ammunition they can't really do damage. (The only exception to this is the rogue. . . but that eliminates having great range) Archers have many more issues to deal with opposed to melee characters (close quarters/melee combatants, running out of ammunition, damage reduction, enemies with massive numbers of hit points, enemies with reach in semi-close places, etc.)

Is there some way to balance out the major deficits of being an archer?

Any help is appreciated.
Inigo Carmine
12-05-05, 01:05 AM You've got it backwards. Archers are the best non-casters late in the game (and they're about on par with melee at the start).

The benefit you mention, being able to hit things at great distances, rarely comes up in my experience. Combat almost never begins at more than 40 ft, unless perhaps you're in the desert or plains alot. Otherwise, there's usually just not line of sight for that distance.

Archery has the following things going for it:

1) You can almost always full attack. Meleers can only full attack if they start out within reach (or 5 ft from within reach) of an enemy. Even then, when they down an enemy, they probably can't attack anyone else because there's no one nearby to attack.

2) You don't need to go to your enemy. You can use terrain to your advantage better. Get up ontop of something so its hard for anyone to reach you in melee. Use cover without granting the enemy any. Put pits, low walls between you and them, etc.

3) You can attack practically any enemy you want. It sucks when you're in melee and need to help one of your allies out in combat; you generally can't get to them without provoking many AoOs yourself. This also allows you the flexibility of selecting key opportune targets: Ready an action to disrupt the enemy wizard's spellcasting, shoot the fleeing enemy, shoot the rogue that just broke invisibility by sticking a dagger in your sorcerer buddy's kidney, etc.

4) Something you named as a detriment - Damage reduction actually favors archers. Melee types get 1 good weapon generally. Sir Bordek has his trusty Adamantine Greatsword +5 and you have your trusty Comp Longbpw +5.

You run into a normal enemy: neither of you have any problems

You run into an enemy you need adamantine for: Sir Bordek is prepared, and so are you when you start using adamantine arrows from your bow (still getting all the +5 benefits from your bow).

You run into an enemy you need coldiron for: Sir Bordek isn't doing so well, but you just bring out your coldiron arrows (and still get all the +5 benefits from your bow). For Sir Bordek to be able to get his +5 goodness along with coldiron, he's going to have to cough up the money for a completely different Coldiron Greatsword +5, and chances are he doesn't have enough money for 2 +5 swords.

5) Similar to #4 - You can tailor your arrows to the situation. If you know you're going up against drow, get yourself some elf-bane arrows. You get all the magical benefits of your bow, + elfbane for a much cheaper price (they overlap, but don't stack). The meleer would have to spend a fortune to upgrade his weapon with it, plus unless you're fighting a lot of elves afer this, it will have been a useless upgrade in the long run.

Similarly, you can get a much higher enchantment-equivalent for cheaper. IE, you can use +5 equiv bow, and +5 equiv arrows and get an attack that's equivalent to a +9 weapon, when you've spent far far less for it.
Inigo Carmine
12-05-05, 01:09 AM With regards to your falling question:

You would not be able to make a jump check in such a situation to begin with. You can't use a jump check when you fall, only when you intentionally jump down from somewhere.

From the SRD
Jumping Down: If you intentionally jump from a height, you take less damage than you would if you just fell. The DC to jump down from a height is 15. You do not have to get a running start to jump down, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start.

If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did.

In the situation where you intentionally jump down however... I thought I read somewhere once that you can't use both jump and tumble to reduce falling distance. Since I can't actually find that anywhere, you can probably use both in the situations that would allow them to be used.
a_psh
12-05-05, 01:49 AM You've got it covered pretty well, Inigo. I'd also like to throw in this:

Manyshot. Manyshot is a standard action. This lets you attack and move in the same round. Not a bad way to get loads of damage in while still keeping one step ahead of melee types or just plain moving around to get a clear shot at people. Even more importantly, though, this feat lets you pincushion an enemy caster with arrows as a readied action. Kind of hard to make those Concentration checks for spellcasting if you're getting hit with three-four arrows at a time.

The one big problem for archers, really, is that they can't really benefit from short-term Str boosts as much as melee characters can, since they usually have to have composite bows with fixed draw strengths. And that's really not that much of a big deal.

As suggested, having lots of different-use arrows really helps. They're awesome, particularly when baned. Especially if you poison them (which you can't really pull off with a melee weapon, since the first whack will clear the poison).
mvincent
12-05-05, 01:36 PM against something with damage reduction 3/cold iron or 5/magic or something similar, without proper ammunition they can't really do damage.Archers are very likely to have magical bows, which make their arrows magical in regard to penetrating DR. Plus, smart archers should be investing in arrows made of special material (cold iron arrows are cheap)... which allows them to choose the best of combinations of magic (from their bow) and special materials (from their arrows).

Also, since archers can make full attacks more easily than melee types, they can actually be pretty effective.
TheNoblefool
12-05-05, 09:31 PM Thanks for the replies all. The player in my group who was hesitant about making an archer is no longer pessimistic. . . though he still has his doubts about ammunition. Can anyone clear that up? It still seems a bit underpowered if you run out of ammo before you can kill the enemy. . .
Inigo Carmine
12-05-05, 10:32 PM though he still has his doubts about ammunition. Can anyone clear that up? It still seems a bit underpowered if you run out of ammo before you can kill the enemy. . .

So you carry enough ammunition so that you don't run out.

Your average D&D encounter runs about 2-3 rounds; you actually don't loose too many arrows. The only time you'd ever need to worry is if you're making an extended trip away from civilization. In those cases, my archer usually brings about 2 extra quivers with him.

Keep in mind that arrows that miss have a 50% chance of being recovered as well.
epifreak
12-05-05, 11:01 PM Yah, I find that most DMs don't even bother with counting mundane arrows.
DM: "You need to keep up with mundane arrows"
Me: "Let me see, I need very little equipment, have a 16 str for extra bow damage, have a small bag of holding, and have to keep up with my arrows...."
*time passes*
DM: "You've been shooting all day; how many arrows do you have left?"
Me: "Hmm....I've shot 137 so far, recovered 25 of those.....carry the three.......457."

Normal arrows cost next to nothing (in adventurer terms), weigh very little (for a decent Str fighter), and are rather necessary to gain benefit from your nifty bow. The only issue is space, but a bag of holding solves that pretty well.
TheNoblefool
12-06-05, 01:19 AM You make it sound like arrows are little darts instead of shafts around the size of your arm. . . His character uses a Greatbow (Complete warrior), so can anyone think of a way to carry that many arrows? (even 50 arrows to the quiver, 150 arrows is 3 cases longer and thicker than your arm)
Inigo Carmine
12-06-05, 01:28 AM A quiver is 20 arrows, and it weighs 3 pounds total. Only at higher levels, or on extended wilderness stays are you going to need to worry about more than 1. Even then, it's not hard to carry them around. You only need 1 at a time that's actually accessible. You can use the others to replenish your main one between battles.

Also, there are plenty of items to take the burden of carrying off of you after about 4th level:

The Quiver of Elohna carries 60 arrows in it (extradimensinal space).
Heward's Handy Haversack is another great extradimensional space in which to carry.
Bags of Holding are always great favorites as well.
Allusionist
12-06-05, 01:48 AM This is how I've always done it:

Primarily ranged characters like bow rangers start with 3 quivers. If they go below 2, buy another.
Characters who use ranged combat often but not as their primary attack like some bards and rogues start with 2, but a new one when hey have less than one left.
People who rarely make ranged attacks buy one quiver. When it's less than half full, they buy more.

Doing it this way I've yet to run out of ammo, even on extended adventures - and don't bog the characters with too much stuff. Granted, we also don't bother with the ability to recover ammunition - if it didn't stab our target in a fleshy spot then it either hit armor (and would be useless) or flew past it into a wall or tree or 100 yards away depending on where we're fighting (and would be lost or useless).

Non-mundane arrows, of course, are treated differently - if we miss, our DM describes why we missed (based on the difference from AC - he likes being descriptive while staying within the rules) and if it's feasible to recover it then we can, elsewise we don't.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheNoblefool 12-04-05, 11:23 PM	Just on the side. . . If you fall from say 20 feet, and you FALL not jump (thus taking 2d6 of damage) could you make both a jump check AND a tumble check to negate fall damage? on to the main topic, does anyone aside from me find that Archery based characters are much too weak as the game goes on? The only thing they really have going for them is that they can fire one heck of a long distance, and against something with damage reduction 3/cold iron or 5/magic or something similar, without proper ammunition they can't really do damage. (The only exception to this is the rogue. . . but that eliminates having great range) Archers have many more issues to deal with opposed to melee characters (close quarters/melee combatants, running out of ammunition, damage reduction, enemies with massive numbers of hit points, enemies with reach in semi-close places, etc.) Is there some way to balance out the major deficits of being an archer? Any help is appreciated.
Inigo Carmine 12-05-05, 01:05 AM	You've got it backwards. Archers are the best non-casters late in the game (and they're about on par with melee at the start). The benefit you mention, being able to hit things at great distances, rarely comes up in my experience. Combat almost never begins at more than 40 ft, unless perhaps you're in the desert or plains alot. Otherwise, there's usually just not line of sight for that distance. Archery has the following things going for it: 1) You can almost always full attack. Meleers can only full attack if they start out within reach (or 5 ft from within reach) of an enemy. Even then, when they down an enemy, they probably can't attack anyone else because there's no one nearby to attack. 2) You don't need to go to your enemy. You can use terrain to your advantage better. Get up ontop of something so its hard for anyone to reach you in melee. Use cover without granting the enemy any. Put pits, low walls between you and them, etc. 3) You can attack practically any enemy you want. It sucks when you're in melee and need to help one of your allies out in combat; you generally can't get to them without provoking many AoOs yourself. This also allows you the flexibility of selecting key opportune targets: Ready an action to disrupt the enemy wizard's spellcasting, shoot the fleeing enemy, shoot the rogue that just broke invisibility by sticking a dagger in your sorcerer buddy's kidney, etc. 4) Something you named as a detriment - Damage reduction actually favors archers. Melee types get 1 good weapon generally. Sir Bordek has his trusty Adamantine Greatsword +5 and you have your trusty Comp Longbpw +5. You run into a normal enemy: neither of you have any problems You run into an enemy you need adamantine for: Sir Bordek is prepared, and so are you when you start using adamantine arrows from your bow (still getting all the +5 benefits from your bow). You run into an enemy you need coldiron for: Sir Bordek isn't doing so well, but you just bring out your coldiron arrows (and still get all the +5 benefits from your bow). For Sir Bordek to be able to get his +5 goodness along with coldiron, he's going to have to cough up the money for a completely different Coldiron Greatsword +5, and chances are he doesn't have enough money for 2 +5 swords. 5) Similar to #4 - You can tailor your arrows to the situation. If you know you're going up against drow, get yourself some elf-bane arrows. You get all the magical benefits of your bow, + elfbane for a much cheaper price (they overlap, but don't stack). The meleer would have to spend a fortune to upgrade his weapon with it, plus unless you're fighting a lot of elves afer this, it will have been a useless upgrade in the long run. Similarly, you can get a much higher enchantment-equivalent for cheaper. IE, you can use +5 equiv bow, and +5 equiv arrows and get an attack that's equivalent to a +9 weapon, when you've spent far far less for it.
Inigo Carmine 12-05-05, 01:09 AM	With regards to your falling question: You would not be able to make a jump check in such a situation to begin with. You can't use a jump check when you fall, only when you intentionally jump down from somewhere. From the SRD Jumping Down: If you intentionally jump from a height, you take less damage than you would if you just fell. The DC to jump down from a height is 15. You do not have to get a running start to jump down, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start. If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did. In the situation where you intentionally jump down however... I thought I read somewhere once that you can't use both jump and tumble to reduce falling distance. Since I can't actually find that anywhere, you can probably use both in the situations that would allow them to be used.
a_psh 12-05-05, 01:49 AM	You've got it covered pretty well, Inigo. I'd also like to throw in this: Manyshot. Manyshot is a standard action. This lets you attack and move in the same round. Not a bad way to get loads of damage in while still keeping one step ahead of melee types or just plain moving around to get a clear shot at people. Even more importantly, though, this feat lets you pincushion an enemy caster with arrows as a readied action. Kind of hard to make those Concentration checks for spellcasting if you're getting hit with three-four arrows at a time. The one big problem for archers, really, is that they can't really benefit from short-term Str boosts as much as melee characters can, since they usually have to have composite bows with fixed draw strengths. And that's really not that much of a big deal. As suggested, having lots of different-use arrows really helps. They're awesome, particularly when baned. Especially if you poison them (which you can't really pull off with a melee weapon, since the first whack will clear the poison).
mvincent 12-05-05, 01:36 PM	against something with damage reduction 3/cold iron or 5/magic or something similar, without proper ammunition they can't really do damage.Archers are very likely to have magical bows, which make their arrows magical in regard to penetrating DR. Plus, smart archers should be investing in arrows made of special material (cold iron arrows are cheap)... which allows them to choose the best of combinations of magic (from their bow) and special materials (from their arrows). Also, since archers can make full attacks more easily than melee types, they can actually be pretty effective.
TheNoblefool 12-05-05, 09:31 PM	Thanks for the replies all. The player in my group who was hesitant about making an archer is no longer pessimistic. . . though he still has his doubts about ammunition. Can anyone clear that up? It still seems a bit underpowered if you run out of ammo before you can kill the enemy. . .
Inigo Carmine 12-05-05, 10:32 PM	though he still has his doubts about ammunition. Can anyone clear that up? It still seems a bit underpowered if you run out of ammo before you can kill the enemy. . . So you carry enough ammunition so that you don't run out. Your average D&D encounter runs about 2-3 rounds; you actually don't loose too many arrows. The only time you'd ever need to worry is if you're making an extended trip away from civilization. In those cases, my archer usually brings about 2 extra quivers with him. Keep in mind that arrows that miss have a 50% chance of being recovered as well.
epifreak 12-05-05, 11:01 PM	Yah, I find that most DMs don't even bother with counting mundane arrows. DM: "You need to keep up with mundane arrows" Me: "Let me see, I need very little equipment, have a 16 str for extra bow damage, have a small bag of holding, and have to keep up with my arrows...." time passes DM: "You've been shooting all day; how many arrows do you have left?" Me: "Hmm....I've shot 137 so far, recovered 25 of those.....carry the three.......457." Normal arrows cost next to nothing (in adventurer terms), weigh very little (for a decent Str fighter), and are rather necessary to gain benefit from your nifty bow. The only issue is space, but a bag of holding solves that pretty well.
TheNoblefool 12-06-05, 01:19 AM	You make it sound like arrows are little darts instead of shafts around the size of your arm. . . His character uses a Greatbow (Complete warrior), so can anyone think of a way to carry that many arrows? (even 50 arrows to the quiver, 150 arrows is 3 cases longer and thicker than your arm)
Inigo Carmine 12-06-05, 01:28 AM	A quiver is 20 arrows, and it weighs 3 pounds total. Only at higher levels, or on extended wilderness stays are you going to need to worry about more than 1. Even then, it's not hard to carry them around. You only need 1 at a time that's actually accessible. You can use the others to replenish your main one between battles. Also, there are plenty of items to take the burden of carrying off of you after about 4th level: The Quiver of Elohna carries 60 arrows in it (extradimensinal space). Heward's Handy Haversack is another great extradimensional space in which to carry. Bags of Holding are always great favorites as well.
Allusionist 12-06-05, 01:48 AM	This is how I've always done it: Primarily ranged characters like bow rangers start with 3 quivers. If they go below 2, buy another. Characters who use ranged combat often but not as their primary attack like some bards and rogues start with 2, but a new one when hey have less than one left. People who rarely make ranged attacks buy one quiver. When it's less than half full, they buy more. Doing it this way I've yet to run out of ammo, even on extended adventures - and don't bog the characters with too much stuff. Granted, we also don't bother with the ability to recover ammunition - if it didn't stab our target in a fleshy spot then it either hit armor (and would be useless) or flew past it into a wall or tree or 100 yards away depending on where we're fighting (and would be lost or useless). Non-mundane arrows, of course, are treated differently - if we miss, our DM describes why we missed (based on the difference from AC - he likes being descriptive while staying within the rules) and if it's feasible to recover it then we can, elsewise we don't.