Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jhak 01-31-05, 03:07 PM	It bothers me that some types of armour are better than others, so I am looking to make all of the armours balanced. This is a task that I am finding that it is quite difficult as I don't want to increase the AC bonus above 8, but I have to distribute it among 12 armours, resulting in replications of AC bonus. Since I am using a system to determine AC increase, with Max Dex and Armour Check penalties respective of that, I end up with armours having the same characteristics. The armours so far are as follows. Armour:Armour Bonus:Max Dex Bonus:Armour Check:Arcance SF Padded: +1: +8: 0: 5% Leather: +2: +7: -1: 10% Studded Leather: +2: +7: -1: 10% Chain Shirt: +3: +6: -2: 15% Hide: +4: +5: -3: 20% Scale Mail: +4: +5: -3: 20% Chainmail: +5: +4: -4: 25% Breastplate: +5: +4: -4: 25% Splint mail: +6: +3: -5: 30% Banded mail: +7: +2: -6: 35% Half-Plate: +7: +2: -6: 35% Full Plate: +8: +1: -7: 40% I would consider these armours balanced and in some cases make more sense (I never understood why in Half-Plate, you would have less mobility than in Full Plate). I would like some thoughts on this, and possibly some advice on how to fix the problem with replication armours (Leather/Studded Leather, Hide/Scale Mail, Chainmail/Breastplate, Banded mail/Half-Plate).
Venom of the Yuan Ti 01-31-05, 03:31 PM	WOW a post where I will support the role of historical truth in fantasy *has lie down*. It bothers me that some types of armour are better than others, so I am looking to make all of the armours balanced. The armours are not balanced because, guess what, historically some armours where worse overall than others. Also cost is a factor you are ignoring here. For example this proposed change, Chainmail: +5: +4: -4: 25% Breastplate: +5: +4: -4: 25% means that no one in their right mind would buy a brest plate because chainmail is 50gp cheaper and is just as good, also a melat breats plate is much easyer to wear than a chainmail sute, but more on that later. Half-Plate: +7: +2: -6: 35% Full Plate: +8: +1: -7: 40% OH MY *"£$(* :banghead: :mymy: :blink: :shocked: :blink: :twitch: :twitch: :looloo: :headexplo Eh hem. sorry. lost it there. :blush: I would consider these armours balanced and in some cases make more sense (I never understood why in Half-Plate, you would have less mobility than in Full Plate). Half plate is made up of a mixture of plate and chanimail. It is very stif, the weight hangs on aquard places and is genrally hard to move in. Full Plate is made to fit, the weight hands over all of the body evenly. there is actually a case for INCREASING the full plate max dex, because there are historical acounts of knights in it vaulting fences, leaping onto moving hourses and DONING CARTWHEELS!! With a half plate (admitedly poorly done half plate) a man could end up un-able to get up after falling over. In short, dich the idea. Mass infantry wear chain shirts, studded leather, scale mail, splint mail, banded mail or chainmail because of cost, adventurers wear full plate, breast plate, hide, chain shirt and studded leather because they can afford to (for those on both lists or cheap ones on the second list, Dex monkey rouges and Druids)
Jhak 02-01-05, 01:18 PM	Venom of the Yuan Ti, I suppose you are right. It was simply a floating thought for which I spent about 3 minutes contemplating. Never mind.
PhaedrusXY 02-01-05, 01:31 PM	I agree with you Jhak. I don't like how some armors are mechanically superior to others, either. I don't give a rat's ass about historical accuracy. When it comes to the statistics within the game, all I care about is mechanical balance. You use the roleplaying and description part of the game to fill in the "historical accuracy" part. Mechanically, there is no reason to ever wear anything other than a chain shirt, a breastplate, or full plate. And the cost difference is insignifigant once you start buying magical armors. The cost of enchanting the armor is so high, that you'd be an idiot not to spend the extra 50 gold and get that breastplate instead of a suit of chainmail, since the breastplate is hands down mechanically superior. I've toyed with doing something similiar to what you're proposing myself, and your system looks fair at a first glance. I might use it. Another concern of mine is that the Celestial Armor in the DMG is far superior to any other armor mechanically, and it is also way underpriced. Really, once you can afford it there is no reason to use anything else, if you play in a game where the DM lets you upgrade existing magic items. I also never liked how low the max Dex was for armors in general, as at the higher levels many characters are better off wearing a monk's belt and bracers of armor rather than actual armor. So I've increased the max Dex for all armors by +1 and added another +1 max Dex for masterwork armors (which all magic armors are). This brings the other armors up to the point where they can compete with the Celestial Armor and a monk's belt + bracers of armor.
Tony Vargas 02-01-05, 01:50 PM	Balancing more of the armors would be nice. It's perfectly OK to have a couple of 'cheap starting armors' - like scale - that are basicly inferior, but inexpensive, as long as you have more choices at the higher end. The reverse is true, though. There's one or a few 'best' armors, depending on your DEX, a couple of 'cheap' armors, and everything inbetween makes, at best, a brief apearance at 2nd level. That just doesn't make much sense, from the PoV of game design. What might be better: Light armors: basicly OK, as-is. It's a little wierd that badded is +1/+8, while the others add to +8 (+6/+2,+4/+4) - but, that's hardly imbalancing since you can't have mithral padded armor (same could go for leather) Medium armors needs some work: Hide is OK being inferior, as the only non-light, non-metallic armor, in addition to be cheap. Scale is OK being inferior as a cheap starting armor. There needs to be something to choose between Breastplate & Chainmail, maybe one could be +5/+3 and the other +6/+2. Heavy armors are terrible - they're all to expensive for 1st level, and Full Plate is hands-down superior to all the rest... Splint might be a good candidate for 'cheap starting armor,' which would mean reducing the price to under 100gp (in 1E, IIRC, it was 75gp) but even then, should add to +7 - +7/+0 or +6/+1 - or better yet, +8 (+7/+1) Banded & Half-Plate need to be closer in effectiveness to Full Plate. For instance, Banded could be +7 AC/+2 DEX, and Half-Plate could at least be +8/+0... I also never liked how low the max Dex was for armors in general, as at the higher levels many characters are better off wearing a monk's belt and bracers of armor rather than actual armor. If you're determined to stay in the heavier styles of armor (knight-in-shining-armor concept or whatever), you can, even while optimizing. Starting with a 10 DEX, for instance (and pumping STR & CON or whatever - CHA if you're a pally) with the points you save, means topping out at 16 DEX with the best stat-boosters available, and you can take full advantage of that DEX in Mithral Full Plate. I'd actually consider going for a lower point-buy, if armor were being ignored due to the DEX restrictions. ;)
Jhak 02-01-05, 03:57 PM	From the ideas presented I have come up with the following; Padded: 5gp: +1: +8: 0: 5% Leather: 10gp: +2: +7: 0: 10% Studded Leather: 25gp: +3: +6: 15% Chain Shirt: 100gp: +4: +5: -2: 20% These are similar to the standard armours except that the Max Dex for them (except Padded) have been increase by one. This means that the gratest AC bonus you can get out of a standard piece of armour is +9. Hide: 15gp: +3: +5: -3: 20% Scale Mail: 50gp: +4: +4: -4: 25% Chainmail: 150gp: +6: +3: -5: 30% Breastplate: 200gp: +5: +4: -4: 25% I agree that scalemail makes a good starting armour, so the max AC for it is 8. Hide is fine as it is because it is inexpensive, and useful for Druids before Ironwood and this also has a max AC of 8. I'm not sure about Chainmail and Breastplate the way that have them here, but chain is the hevier of the two and appears to cover more of the body (albeit, not as efficiently). You are also paying less for a better AC, so I may swap these values. Splint mail: 75gp: +7: 0: -8: 45% Banded mail: 250gp: +7: +2: -6: 35% Half-plate: 600gp: +8: +1: -7: 40% Full Plate: 1,500gp: +9: +0: -8: 45% I have reduced the cost of Splint mail to 75gp to make it accessable as a starting armour. It can provide a max AC of 7, so it is effectivly the weakest avaliable. The variations between the other 3 heavys are obvious, all providing a max AC of 9 like many of the other armours. I have some reservation about giving Full-Plate an Armour bonus of +9, but it is essentially no better that banded of half (it depends on DEX). I was thinking about possibly increaseing the Max Dex of all the heavys by 1 (except Splint) to give them a slight AC dominance to compensate for Heavy armours disadvantges. Thoughts?
Rulebook 02-01-05, 04:25 PM	lol if you want historical accuracy, chain was superior to most forms of armor. heck, two layers of well made chain was usually superior to most forms of plate armor, as it cushioned blows a lot easier. i miss the old 2e optional rules on attack types vs type of armor, where piercing got a bonus against chain, slashing vs leather etc...
Jhak 02-01-05, 05:10 PM	Maybe increase the cost of chainmail to 300gp then, and make it double layered. That seems fair.
Edymnion 02-01-05, 05:43 PM	i miss the old 2e optional rules on attack types vs type of armor, where piercing got a bonus against chain, slashing vs leather etc...Ugh, not me. That was way more trouble than it was worth. You needed three sets of stats for the same suit of armor, combat slowed down as you tried to figure out what kind of damage they were doing versus what your armor was... And especially in 3e, what do you do when something does two types of damage? If something is strong against bludgeoning (its cushy), but weak against piercing, what do you do when you're hit with a morningstar? Way too much work, nowhere near enough payoff.
WunderGoat 02-01-05, 05:46 PM	You may want to look into the damage reduction variant in UA. Basicly the heavier the armor, the better the damage reduction from that armor, while the AC bonus shrinks rapidly. It does not solve the chain shirt/breastplate/full plate issue, but it does balance heavy armor vs lighter armor. Also look into using the various other armors published, like lamellor, great armor, leather scale, etc. They tend to be balanced along the high end armors, but are cheaper and offer more variety. A DM can also solve this issue by making the cost between chainmail and breastplate a big issue (low treasure) or by making it a pain to get the high end armors (low avaliability). As for the character, it all comes down to personal preference and the relative power level of the campaign. If you really wanr to make a big difference, multiply the cost of armors by like 5 or 10. The cost difference now becomes more of a concern.
Mirtek 02-01-05, 06:28 PM	I agree with you Jhak. I don't like how some armors are mechanically superior to others, either. I don't give a rat's ass about historical accuracy. When it comes to the statistics within the game, all I care about is mechanical balance. You use the roleplaying and description part of the game to fill in the "historical accuracy" part. So why stop with armor? How about reducing all weapons to 9 set of stats: one-handed, light, two-handed and each once for martial, once for simple, and once for exotic.? :rolleyes:
PhaedrusXY 02-01-05, 07:26 PM	So why stop with armor? How about reducing all weapons to 9 set of stats: one-handed, light, two-handed and each once for martial, once for simple, and once for exotic.? :rolleyes:It's not even the same thing, and you know it. Don't patronize me. The only function armor has is to make you more difficult to hit (exempting special magical abilities added to it, which can be added to any armor equally well). It is a very simple system, mechanically. Weapons have alot more variability in their functions, with different damage types, different critical threat ranges, reach, how many hands it takes to wield them, strength bonuses, etc. If the only thing weapons did was flat damage, without critical hits, the ability to trip, disarm, have reach, etc, then yes, I'd argue you should do exactly what you're saying. But there are many more options available with weapons that make them respectable choices depending on the situation, even if they don't do the same damage. I don't even know why I bothered answering such a ridiculous, sarcastic reply. But there you go...
Venom of the Yuan Ti 02-02-05, 10:31 AM	Ok I have read these posts, and I actually like what I am hearing, so I am going to throw my own suggestion(s) into the ring. Make the max Dex of padded clothes -, meanin gany dex bonus. (that has allways bugged me) A small penalty on AC (-1 is easyily enough) against certain attacks by certain armours, this would need to be worked out on a case by case basis but, in general, Sheet metal=penalty vs piercing, chain mail pernalty vs Piercing, organic material, panalty vs bludgeoning, this also helps counter the fact almost ALL wepons I see used seem to be slashing. Masterworking increases mex dex by +1, but for the same cost as weapon masterworking. Grant a percentige of Dex bonus based on armour, rounded down, makes heavy armour worse as a char with High dex can get a much better score in lighter armour.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 02-02-05, 10:37 AM	Splint mail: 75gp: +7: 0: -8: 45% Banded mail: 250gp: +7: +2: -6: 35% Half-plate: 600gp: +8: +1: -7: 40% Full Plate: 1,500gp: +9: +0: -8: 45% Thoughts? Just one here, you are aware that MSW full plate is but a tiny amount less expencive than +1 half plate, which is silly. Full plate is better BECAUSE it is almost a +1 mod more expencive.
Andu 02-02-05, 11:52 AM	The movement penalty is also a very penalizing factor for heavy armor. I'm personnaly considering switching from a +1 full plate to a chain shirt (with my 12 dex, that's a flat 4 AC loss) just because I'm being the tin can guy that slows everyone, and not enjoying a mechanical advantage from my armor anyway. And medium is still poor. I'd suggest a simple change : armour receive the DR as if they were made of adamantine (1/- for light, 3/- for heavy). That would help justify using medium and heavy. Even a heavy warrior in full plate and 12 Dex is going, sooner or later, to end with some +4 bonus to Dex, either from item or buff, then the 1 or 2 point difference is rather low compared to the 2/3 movement factor.
Maraxus 02-02-05, 01:24 PM	Great, just yesterday I made a tably for exactly the same thing. And I read about it, so: Half plate is made up of a mixture of plate and chanimail. It is very stif, the weight hangs on aquard places and is genrally hard to move in. Wrong, half plate and three-quarter plate were desinged after full plate, because it offered more flexibility (basicly only the legs were less heavily armored). Another concern of mine is that the Celestial Armor in the DMG is far superior to any other armor mechanically If you set the total enchantement bonus to +4, it is not much better than mithral breastplate +4 (AC 14 vs. 16). If you set it to a +5 enchanted armor (maybe but not necisaryly increasing the price) there in no more problem. Something about the table: You should not forget, that you can easilyget a Dex of about 14 with magical enchantments or from the start. This makes a +7AC/+2max dex armor more attractive, since dexterity increases your touch AC, what is usually better than increasing the flat-fooded AC. And now my table (why is html off?) Armor Cost AC. Max Dex ACP. ASF. (30 ft) (20 ft) Weight Light armor Padded 5 gp +1 Inf 0 5% 30 ft. 20 ft. 10 lb. Leather 10 gp +2 +7 0 10% 30 ft. 20 ft. 15 lb. Studded leather 25 gp +3 +5 –1 15% 30 ft. 20 ft. 20 lb. Chain shirt * 100 gp +4 +4 –2 20% 30 ft. 20 ft. 25 lb. Medium armor Hide 25 gp +3 +6 –3 20% 20 ft. 15 ft. 25 lb. Scale mail 70 gp +4 +4 –3 20% 20 ft. 15 ft. 30 lb. Breastplate 200 gp +5 +3 –4 25% 20 ft. 15 ft. 30 lb. Chainmail * 180 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 40 lb. Heavy armor Banded mail 300 gp +6 +2 –6 35% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 35 lb. Splint mail 100 gp +7 +0 –8 50% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 45 lb. Half-plate 600 gp +7 +1 –7 40% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 50 lb. Full plate 1,500 +8 +1 –7 40% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 50 lb. *: Chain shirt has only armor bonus 3, Chainmail only 4 against piercing weapons. The changes: - Padded Armor allows infinite dex bonus. - Leather can have a total +9 AC. He who gets 34 Points in Dex can be harder to hit. Second, it is only leather, no mithral-able armor. - Hide armor allows much more dex bonus. However, leather allows 1 more dex for 1 AC. Studded leather allows one dex less with same AC but is light and has no armor check penalty when masterworked. Scale Mail and Chain Mail got better to be compareable with breastplate, however, I would say breastplate is still best, because it needs less dex than Scale Mail and... - Chain shirt and Chainmail get a reduced AC against piercing weapons. - The really bad armors were improved, so they can stand the comparison to medium armor (they need a level armor proficency more and reduce the run factor. This is not as much as reduced tactical speed but bad enough). Splint Mail is still the worsed armor out there but this is my tribute to reality.
Tony Vargas 02-02-05, 02:33 PM	Thoughts? Well, you've made the best armors of each categor add to +9. The only problem I have with that is the movement restrictions of heavy armor. Most medium and light armors adding to +8 (as they currently do - mostly), and heavy adding to +9 would be fine. Padded and Leather, as Maraxus pointed out, can't be mithral, so could tollerate a +9 bonus (and require insanely high DEX, anyway). A +9 total armor accessible to a starting character (as 20 DEX elf, for instance), would be pushing it - even a +8 is pretty impressive. 'cheap starting armors' should probably add to +7, or require a DEX higher than possible at 1st to reach full potential (like leather and padded).
Johannixx 02-02-05, 02:59 PM	Wrong, half plate and three-quarter plate were desinged after full plate, because it offered more flexibility (basicly only the legs were less heavily armored). You are correct. However, WotC's "Half-Plate" isn't historical half-plate. It's actually a transitional plate-and-chain armor, circa mid-1200's or so. The fine art of articulating the plates for easy movement hadn't quite reached the level of true full plate, so WotC "Half Plate" is more restrictive than later full-plate armor. I have no problems with statting out real half-plate or three-quarter-plate (and have done so myself), and renaming WotC's "Half-Plate" as "Transitional Armor" or "Maille-and-Plate". Thus, it makes sense for WotC's misnamed "Half-Plate" to be inferior to real plate. And whoever said maille was better than plate has never worn either and been hit by a mace. I have. Believe me, plate is superior by far, both in terms of weight and protection. Chain is more mobile, at least in the torso area, but you do sacrifice a good deal of protection against thrusting, chopping and bludgeoning weapons.
Schmendrick 02-02-05, 08:15 PM	Why not mix the "armor as DR" and "types of armor" and say that, instead of certain types of armor having different ACs vs. different types of damage, providing minor DR? DR 1/piercing, for example. Also, you could provide things like "eentsy-skeensy fortification" as an extraordinary ability (something like a 5% chance, or even less, to avoid critical/sneak). For extra armor-type distinction and flavor, you could allow magical bonuses (+1 .. +5) to increase these properties (in addition to the normal AC bonus). In that case, you might want to consider repricing armor enhancements to bonus^2 * 1100 or some such (instead of b^2 * 1000).
jaelis 02-02-05, 09:52 PM	It doesn't seem that hard. If you assume that full plate, breast plate and chain shirt are balanced as is but want to add some further options, then you want: (name): (cost) (AC bonus) (Max Dex) Padded: 5gp +1 +7 Leather: 10gp +2 +6 Studded Leather: 25gp +3 +5 Chain Shirt: 100gp +4 +4 Hide: 15gp +3 +4 Scale: 50gp +4 +3 Chainmail: 200gp +5 +3 Breastplate: 500gp +6 +2 Splint: 100gp +5 +1 Banded: 700gp +7 +2 Halfplate: 1500gp +8 +1 Fullplate: 3000gp +9 +0 (ACP, ASF etc follow the max dex as normal.) Of course, some of the names have changed. Also, I did cheat a bit with splint, but I think it would be nice if fighters could get into heavy armor early on. jaelis
Johannixx 02-02-05, 11:58 PM	Thing is, full plate is quite easy to move while wearing. It was designed that way. It's an articulated, flexible, protective metal skin.
jaelis 02-03-05, 01:09 AM	The theory, as articulated by PhaedrusXY, is to forget about historical accuracy and come up with a balanced system for the game. Anyway, that's the theory behind my effort. Actually, Phaedrus also thought that the max dex was generally too low. I'm surprised about that. The cost and benefit of bracers is exactly the same as that of armor enchantment, so I would say they cancel. So the base armor you're suggesting is the monk's belt, which gives an AC bonus equal to your wisdom bonus +1. If you had a really high wisdom and dex, that would be beneficial, but is that so common? (Other than a monk, of course.) For instance, with a dex of 22 (+6) and a wis of 16 (+3), the monk's belt would give you a bonus of +10 for 13,000 gp. A mithral chain shirt gives you +10 for only 1100 gp. Of course, if you have a really high dex build, then you don't want armor, but I would have said that just came with the territory. jaelis
Jhak 02-05-05, 11:24 AM	ARMOURS Okay, I am now looking to modify each armour individually. The total AC attainable increases with the armours weight (+8light/ +9medium/ +10heavy) and upgrading an armour into masterwork has different effects, depending on the armour, provided that you have the right feat. Padded Type: Light Cost: 5gp AB: +1 MDB: Unlimited ACP: 0 ASF: 5% Masterwork Cost: 155gp ASF: 0% Leather Type: Light Cost: 10gp AB: +2 MDB: +6 ACP: 0 ASF: 10% Masterwork Cost: 160gp ASF: 5% MDB: +8 (with Armoured Mobility) Studded Leather Type: Light Cost: 25gp AB: +3 MDB: +5 ACP: -1 ASF: 15% Masterwork Cost: 175gp ACP: 0 MDB: +7 (with Armoured Mobility) Chain Shirt Type: Light Cost: 100gp AB: +4 MDB: +4 ACP: -2 ASF: 20% Masterwork Cost: 250gp ACP: -1 MDB: +6 (with Armoured Mobility) Hide Type: Medium Cost: 15gp AB: +3 MDB: +5 ACP: -3 ASF: 20% Masterwork Cost: 315gp ACP: -2 MDB: +6 (with Armoured Mobility) DR: 1/- (with Armoured Endurance) Scale mail Type: Medium Cost: 50gp AB: +4 MDB: +4 ACP: -4 ASF: 25% Masterwork Cost: 350gp ACP: -3 MDB: +5 (with Armoured Mobility) DR: 1/- (with Armoured Endurance) Breastplate Type: Medium Cost: 200gp AB: +5 MDB: +4 ACP: -4 ASF: 25% Masterwork Cost: 500gp ACP: -3 MDB: +5 (with Armoured Mobility) DR: 1/- (with Armoured Endurance) Chainmail Type: Medium Cost: 300gp AB: +6 MDB: +3 ACP: -5 ASF: 30% Masterwork Cost: 600gp ACP: -4 MDB: +4 (with Armoured Mobility) DR: 1/- (with Armoured Endurance) Splint mail Type: Heavy Cost: 75gp AB: +7 MDB: +0 ACP: -8 ASF: 45% Masterwork Cost: 675gp ACP: -7 DR: 2/- (with Armoured Endurance) Banded Mail Type: Heavy Cost: 250gp AB: +7 MDB: +3 ACP: -6 ASF: 30% Masterwork Cost: 850gp ACP: -5 DR: 2/- (with Armoured Endurance) Half-plate Type: Heavy Cost: 600gp AB: +8 MDB: +2 ACP: -7 ASF: 35% Masterwork Cost: 1,200gp ACP: -6 DR: 2/- (with Armoured Endurance) Full plate Type: Heavy Cost: 1,500gp AB: +9 MDB: +1 ACP: -8 ASF: 40% Masterwork Cost: 2,100gp ACP: -7 DR: 2/- (with Armoured Endurance) Feats Armoured Mobility You gain the benefits of high dexterity while wearing armour. Prerequisites: Dex 15, Dodge, Mobility Benefit: You Maximum Dex bonus while wearing armour increase by 2 for light armours and 1 for medium armours. This is applied only to armour of masterwork quality and that you are proficient with. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects stack. Armoured Endurance Prerequisites: Con 15, Great Fortitude, Endurance, Toughness Benefit: You gain damage reduction of 1/- while wearing medium armour and DR 2/- while wearing heavy. This is applied only to armour of masterwork quality and that you are proficient with. Special: This DR stacks with DR of the same type (#/-), such as that of a Barbarian of Dwarven Defender. It does not stack with damage reduction of other types such as 10/magic or 5/silver etc. Your thoughts?
jaelis 02-05-05, 02:50 PM	Well, you generally made armor better that it used to be. You'd have to be careful to check how it affects balance. I'd be afraid to do it in my campaign. Also, there's not much need to make med armors better... with mithral, they don't give any movement penalties anyway. I think the total of +8 for med armors is good. I like the armored mobility feat. The armored endurance might be a bit strong, especially when combined with adamantine. Also, the overlapping prereqs make it a big winner for a dwarven defender. DR 12/- starts to look pretty good. jaelis
Jhak 02-05-05, 03:27 PM	Perhaps a few changes then. Decrease the max dex bonus of Breastplate and chainmail by 1. Decrease the Armour bonuses of all the heavys by 1. This give a light/med/hvy max AC of +8/+8/+9, with the exceptions of padded and splint. I like the idea of Armoured Endurance, but I can't to much in the way of reducing its effectivness. I could make it so that its effects do not stack, but that makes it useless to barbarians, dwarf defenders and anyone wearing adamantine. I though maybe that I could give it greater prerequisites, but i'm having trouble thinking of any off the top of my head. Higher con maybe, or combat expertise. Thoughts?
Venom of the Yuan Ti 02-05-05, 04:43 PM	I have been using this feat for a while, it might make a good pre req for your two, (still don't agree with full plate having a lower max dex than half, but there we go) Armour focus You gain the benefits of higher dexterity while wearing armour. Prerequisites: Dex 13, Proficient with armour/shield to be chosen, BAB+1 Benefit: You Maximum Dex bonus while wearing armour increase by 1 for one armour/shield chosen by you when you take the feat. Armours/shield made of different materials count as the same for the porposes of this feat. Special: This feat does not stack with other simmilar feats, such as armour mobility. A fighter may take this feat as one of his bonus feats.
jaelis 02-05-05, 09:12 PM	Make Armor Endurance not stack with DR from adamantine. It would still be very worthwhile... it saves a bunch of money and works with any armor you find. Actually, its not clear to me if adamantine stacks with the DR/- class feature anyway. jaelis
Relic 02-06-05, 01:02 AM	One thing I did to help armor is make it so medium armor does not reduce speed (thus a human retains a speed of 30 in medium armor) but does restrict so that your run speed is one less (thus a human's run speed in medium armor is x3 not x4). Heavy armor retains the speed reduction and the run speed reduction.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 02-07-05, 06:35 AM	Actually, its not clear to me if adamantine stacks with the DR/- class feature anyway. jaelis No it doesn't. DR only VERY rarley stacks (I think there are some feats that can boost the DR */- of some classes) EG a barbarian with DR 1/- wherewolf 10/silver and an adamantine breats plate DR 2/- is hit by a steel weapon, deduct 10 from the damadge. He is hit by a silver weapon, deduct 2 from the damadge. He is hit by a silver weapon after being supprised in his sleep and so is not in armour, deduct 1 from the damadge.
Krynus Ogrebane 02-07-05, 09:44 AM	Ditch max dex and reduced speed entirely, and instead rely on the encumbrance rules for them.
Tony Vargas 02-10-05, 02:37 PM	Here's yet another take. Trying to keep changes to a minimum, here, while putting armor into either a 'worthwhile' (powergame wise, meaning an Armor + DEX bonus that equals other armors of the same class), or a 'cheap' starting alternative. Light armor Padded 5 gp +1 +8 0 5% 30 ft. 20 ft. 10 lb. Leather 10 gp +2 +7 0 10% 30 ft. 20 ft. 15 lb. Studded leather 25 gp +3 +5 –1 15% 30 ft. 20 ft. 20 lb. Chain shirt 100 gp +4 +4 –2 20% 30 ft. 20 ft. 25 lb. Medium armor Hide 15 gp +3 +4 –3 20% 20 ft. 15 ft. 25 lb. Scale mail 50 gp +4 +3 –4 25% 20 ft. 15 ft. 30 lb. Breastplate 200 gp +5 +3 –4 25% 20 ft. 15 ft. 30 lb. Chainmail 300 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 40 lb. Heavy armor Splint mail 75 gp +7 +1 –7 40% 20 ft 15 ft 45 lb. Banded mail 250 gp +7 +2 –6 35% 20 ft 15 ft 35 lb. Half-plate 500 gp +8 +0 –7 40% 20 ft 15 ft 50 lb. Full plate 1,500 gp +8 +1 –6 35% 20 ft 15 ft 50 lb. Note that both light metal and non-cheap medium armors add to +8. This is because they can be made of mithral, and mithral medium armor /is/ light for movement purposes. Mithral light armors (including breastplate and chainmail) add to +10. The better heavier armors - Banded & Full Plate add to +9 (11 if mithral. Note that while leather and padded add to +9, they can't be made of mithral. The biggest changes are to chain and splint. Chain is made much more expensive and given a higher AC - I think this makes sense compared to the Chain shirt, which is so much lighter and less encumbering - taking it completely out of the 'cheap starting armor' category. Splint is made into a 'cheap starting armor' but still gives enough AC to make it worth the badly reduced movement. Additional Armors, just for fun and added variety: Light armor Ringmail Hauberk 70 gp +4 +3 –3 25% 30 ft. 20 ft. 25 lb. Medium armor Lorica 90 gp +4 +4 –3 25% 20 ft. 15 ft. 30 lb. Ringmail 100 gp +6 +1 –6 35% 20 ft. 15 ft. 40 lb. Heavy armor Partial Plate 400 gp +6 +3 –5 30% 20 ft 15 ft 40 lb. Field Plate 2000 gp +9 +0 –7 50% 20 ft 15 ft 60 lb. Ringmail is a less expensive alternative to chainmail, with the links sewn or rivitted to a leather backing, instead of being finely interlaced. 'Lorica' is the classic roman legionary armor, lorica segmentata. It's much like a banded mail version of a breastplate. 'Partial Plate' is what's called half or three-quarter plate by antiquarians (but, I can't call it that, because they decided to call 1E Plate Mail 'Half Plate' :rolleyes: ). Something between a breastplate and full plate in coverage. 'Field Plate' represents the kind of heavy jousting and dueling armor of the late medieval period that might debateably be impractical for real battle, but what the heck... yeah, there's probably an antiquities-precise meaning for 'field plate,' too, but I don't know what it might be...
Tony Vargas 02-14-05, 07:31 PM	Ditch max dex and reduced speed entirely, and instead rely on the encumbrance rules for them.Problem with that is it makes heavy armor desireable for very high-DEX characters - if they can cheese up enough STR to 'carry' it (which isn't that hard, even full plate is only 50lbs). It'd be about the same effect as throwing out max dex entirely (just with a little more bookkeeping), and I don't really want to go back to the 1E everyone-in-platemail thing /that/ would lead to.
Krynus Ogrebane 02-20-05, 11:00 AM	Problem with that is it makes heavy armor desireable for very high-DEX characters - if they can cheese up enough STR to 'carry' it (which isn't that hard, even full plate is only 50lbs). It'd be about the same effect as throwing out max dex entirely (just with a little more bookkeeping), and I don't really want to go back to the 1E everyone-in-platemail thing /that/ would lead to. Would a suitable middle-ground then be to keep a max dex mechanic, but have any speed reduction be governed by encumbrance? ... from a "realistic" perspective (I know, a bad idea to bring up realism in a fantasy game, but bear with me), the typical knight in full plate did not have super-human strength (i.e.- Belt of Giant Strength, et al), which explains why they'd generally be slow while encased in a 50# suit of metal. Although the armors can definitely use some tweaking, my gut instinct finds this to be just the thing. The speed reduction, after all, is a large reason why players shun heavy armor.
Tony111 02-20-05, 04:57 PM	*Tosses 2 cents into the fountain* Armor Cost Bonus Max Dex Total ArmorChk SpellFail Padded 5gp +1 +8 +9 -0 5% Leather 10gp +2 +6 +8 -0 10% StudLeather 25gp +3 +5 +8 -1 15% Wild Shell 300gp +4 +2 +6 -3 20% Hide 15gp +3 +4 +7 -3 20% Scale 50gp +4 +3 +7 -4 25% Breast 200gp +5 +4 +9 -4 30% Chain 250gp +6 +3 +9 -5 35% Splint 150gp +6 +0 +6 -7 40% Banded 200gp +6 +1 +7 -6 35% Halfplate 800gp +8 +0 +8 -7 40% Plate 1500gp +9 +1 +10 -6 35% HeavyPlate 2500gp +10 +0 +10 -7 40% First of all, as some of you have mentioned, screw history; make it mechanically balanced foremost. Wild Shell is produced from exoskeletons and shells of animals. It is too light but hard to move in, and too expensive to start with. It will end up being used in the mid game but then scrapped when dex bonuses increase. Tony
Tony Vargas 02-22-05, 04:08 PM	Would a suitable middle-ground then be to keep a max dex mechanic, but have any speed reduction be governed by encumbrance? I'd never thought of it, but it might be a possibility. You also have to consider restrictions on the use of abilities like barbarian fast movement, Ranger combat styles, and the like - whether they'd best be done as a function of encumbrance, or armor type... The speed reduction, after all, is a large reason why players shun heavy armor. Really depends on the player. The max dex is a more direct balance consideration (ie changing it just plain breaks the game by making both DEX and heavy armor too powerful). Another possibility might be to make the movement restrictions on armor less substantial than those from a comparable amount of encumbrance. Since you use the worse of the two, it'd make being able to be 'lightly encumbered' in your heavier-than 'light' armor an actual benefit.