Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spus Widgetwatcher 10-28-05, 12:23 AM	Well, for flavor purporses, I allowed Gnomes to just stumble upon the invention of fire arms. Now when I looked at the DMG entry for renaissance firearms, I found that that are horrendously underpowered. Now I still wanted the flavor aspect of it, but still wanted it balanced enough not to put bows out of commission or be laughed at as a consideration. Here's what I cooked up to begin with: -Exotic Ranged Weapon Revolver Price: 2,000gp Damage: 1d8(S) 1d10(M) Crit Range: x3 Range Increment: 50 feet. Weight: 5 lb Damage: Piercing A revolver can hold 6 rounds before reloading. Reloading a Revolver is a standard action. Revolvers can be used 1 handed alone. If trying to use two, normal two-weapon fighting penalties apply, treating the Revolver as a 1-handed weapon. It takes 2 hands to reload a revolver. Revolvers are always considered Masterwork and recieve +1 to attack rolls. -Revolver Bullets 3gp per pack of 6. It is stored in a small spindle that weighs 1 pound per set. A bullet pouch or belt comes with a purchase of bullets. -Exotic Ranged Weapon Rifle Price: 3,000gp Damage: 1d10(S) 1d12(M) Crit Range : x3 Range Increment: 80 feet Weight: 15 lb Damage: Piercing A Rifle can hold 4 rounds before reloading. Reloading a Rifle is a standard action. A Rifle is a 2-handed weapon. Attempted to use a Rifle one handed even with the correct profiency inflicts a -4 penalty. If you attempt to fire a rifle in each hand, two-weapon fighting penalties apply, treating the rifle as a 1-handed weapon when determining additional penalties than the -4 to each shot. It takes 2 hands to reload a rifle. Rifles are always considered masterwork and add +1 bonus to attack rolls. -Rifle Rounds 4gp per pack of 4. They are stored in a small cylinder that weighs 2 pounds per set. Rifle rounds can be stored on a bullet belt which comes with any bullet purchase. and a feat to go with it: Rapid Reload Prerequisite:Exotic Weapon Profiency: Revolver or Rifle Benefit: Reloading your Revolver or Rifle may be done during movement or as a move action. Normal: Reloading your Revolver or Rifle is a standard action. Rapid Reload may be taken as a Fighter Bonus Feat. As is, it seems to work with bows still not being outclassed since they don't need to be reloaded at all. Anyone else try balancing Firearms into thier Mideval Fantasy D&D?
Kendrick 10-28-05, 02:20 AM	Your gnomes happen upon speed-loaders at the same time or something?
Pliskit 10-28-05, 02:33 AM	Sounds quite balanced. I specially like the extra rounds weighing respectively 1 and 2 pounds each. This will at least slow low lvl characters down in overusing it. I've done the maths on the damage outputs for both weapons, and they are balanced amongst eachother and do not overpower bows, let alone the heavier composites. One question remaining: what about bullet-belts? I guess one of the reasons why reloading is a full round action is you have to get the new round out of whereever you stacked it. Won't bulletbelts reduce the loading time?
Kendrick 10-28-05, 02:44 AM	Before I expend a lot of effort trying to balance something to offer as a replacement for those rules, are you interested in trying to give your world even a tiny bit of versimilitude? Just looking at those proposed rules gives me a headache and makes my right eyelid twitch, but if you're determined to allow reloading as a move action, I don't think there's any point to me expressing my opinions on these proposed rules further. Edit to add: The above is regarding the revolver. What kind of action are you talking about for a rifle? If it has a 4 round magazine it sounds like maybe a bolt or lever. With a bolt or lever action rifle, there's no reason to make reloading require an action unless the bullets are in pockets or something that requires a move action to find them. With experience, reloading a rifle can usually be dome simultaneous with target aquisition. 4 rounds in 6 seconds while manually loading each round would be pushing it, but no more than 4 arrows in 6 seconds. It also rather stretches credulty for revolvers and some form of repeating rifle to show up without single-shot weapons as precursors. Is there a reason you want revolvers and repeaters rather than the single-shot versions?
FlameLover 10-28-05, 03:30 AM	-Exotic Ranged Weapon Revolver Price: 2,000gp Damage: 1d8(S) 1d10(M) Crit Range: x3 Range Increment: 80 feet. Weight: 5 lb Damage: Piercing A revolver can hold 6 rounds before reloading. Reloading a Revolver is a standard action. Revolvers can be used 1 handed alone. If trying to use two, normal two-weapon fighting penalties apply, treating the Revolver as a 1-handed weapon. It takes 2 hands to reload a revolver. Revolvers are always considered Masterwork and recieve +1 to attack rolls. -Revolver Bullets 3gp per pack of 6. It is stored in a small spindle that weighs 1 pound per set. So i'd compare this to the Heavy Repeater Crossbow. This gets reloading as Standard Action instead of Full Action, 6 bullets before reload compared to only 5 for the crossbow and x3 crit instead of 19-20 (which is balanced in itself btw). I'd remove the Repeater from the game if you allowed this (Since it's a kinda underpowered weapon anyway) and change normal reload to Full Action (and having the Rapid Reload feat would reduce to Move-Equivelant Action ofcourse). -Exotic Ranged Weapon Rifle Price: 3,000gp Damage: 1d10(S) 1d12(M) Crit Range : x3 Range Increment: 120 feet Weight: 15 lb Damage: Piercing A Rifle can hold 4 rounds before reloading. Reloading a Rifle is a standard action. A Rifle is a 2-handed weapon. Attempted to use a Rifle one handed even with the correct profiency inflicts a -4 penalty. If you attempt to fire a rifle in each hand, two-weapon fighting penalties apply, treating the rifle as a 1-handed weapon when determining additional penalties than the -4 to each shot. It takes 2 hands to reload a rifle. Rifles are always considered masterwork and add +1 bonus to attack rolls. -Rifle Rounds 4gp per pack of 4. They are stored in a small cylinder that weighs 2 pounds per set. This is balanced, maybe a little underpowered for an Exotic weapon, but the ability to TWF with it is a needless inconsistency. Just say it's a two-handed weapon and therefore no TWF with it (no need to state that btw). Anyway I would change the damage to 2d6. It's a minor adjustment but i feel it is generally desirable to have average damage than one that varies wildly. Also i'd lower the range increments and make them use a standard form of ammunition. Why? Well range because early firearms where very poor at aiming and the ammunition because that's just how D&D does things. I mean we don't have Short and Long arrows which you'd have in the real world (not by that name but there are different lengths). I mean i'd even have shotguns firing the same thing - it's not realistic but it's more fun and makes keeping track of stuff simpler. Having just "Bullets", "Shells", "Grenades" and "Rockets" could work also although both grenades and rockets wouldn't be found that early on. The other problem is sling ammo is called Bullets so i'd maybe change that in a world with firearms (or call firearm bullets something else like Shots or call 'em all Shells). So yeah i'm actually making a CS set in the 1800s and i'm attempting to do the same thing that you were/are. The DMG ones are just stupid and everyone always makes ones which are better than bows (Which is totally bunk, especially the earliest ones). Oh and you said you thought they were underpowered yet went onto say they out-classed crossbows (a typo but i thought i'd just point it out, sorry if I seem asinine).
Kendrick 10-28-05, 04:12 AM	So yeah i'm actually making a CS set in the 1800s and i'm attempting to do the same thing that you were/are. The DMG ones are just stupid and everyone always makes ones which are better than bows (Which is totally bunk, especially the earliest ones). Oh and you said you thought they were underpowered yet went onto say they out-classed crossbows (a typo but i thought i'd just point it out, sorry if I seem asinine). If they're using repeaters with shells, I think it's safe to say that we aren't exactly talking about early guns. Looks more like civil war era, approximately.
Rulebook 10-28-05, 07:57 AM	wtf kind of renaissance did you learn about!? during the early renaissance (about the farthest up D&D tech ever really goes) they were using matchlock and wheel lock firearms. with wheel locks being rare and expensive. (and fragile) there was no "3 shots a round" crap. by the civil war a very well trained soldier could snap off a shot every 10-15 seconds. but thats some DAMN masterful reloading, and fairly advanced ammuntion packing (for early rifles at least) the guns in the core books are horrendously OVERPOWERED because you can fire them 3 times as fast as a real gun. gnomes wouldnt just "stumble" on revolvers or cartridge ammunition. hell they wouldnt even stumble on percussion cap firearms. they'd do like they always do, start where history started, and make some very fast improvements, but increase how dangerous they are by just as much. (to you i mean) heh, if you want safe, reliable, easy to use equipment fast, let dwarves build it. or better yet... let the gnomes discover it, and the HUMANS work on it from there.
Spus Widgetwatcher 10-28-05, 07:59 AM	Dropping in before work- yeah it isn't historically accurate to have the first guns be multi shot, but as is, a medium musket is inferior to a small shortbow- you can multiattack with a the small shortbow, which is to a Level 6 Full BAB character who who full attacks, is 4d4(4-16 damage) Small Shortbow vs. 1d12(1-12) Medium Musket since you have to stop and reload the damn thing. Hardly fitting for an exotic weapon and not worth the feat. Besides, strange jumps in technology have happened before- I recall seeing something on the History Channel that some ancient doctor made a battery of some sort for shock therapy- only he had it, it was forgotten when he was gone and found 2,000 years later- Any kind of electrical device for that time is a huge jump- I'm only putting Civil War stuff that's been beat with a nerf stick(As in ignoring all the physics stuff of how it would pierce armor and all, and comparitively, would probably have a much higher damage die if you want to nitpick) in a 1300's game :P. The Price was kinda a flavor thing, the flavor aspect was they are "cutting edge technology" and only the gnomes have them. Like Automobiles were at first custom made to order, there's no standard for making firearms yet- they simply are all custom made, and are much more expensive than just grabbing a bow or crossbow at the local general store. Also, you are still at a disadvantage when away from the gnomish lands- Krusherrr the Orc isn't going to have bullets in his tribal store unless he sacked a gnome caravan recently. Out of time, address this later.
RaspK FOG 10-28-05, 09:42 AM	Which only means one thing: use firearms either from very far away, deal their damage, then proceed with other weapons, or the likes! During the Greek Revolution in 1821, people used muskets only sparingly; a favourite tactic was wearing several loaded pistols on one's belts and baldrics, firing a shot when needed, and then going for the melee! :D
jaelis 10-28-05, 10:23 AM	If you want to increase the power of firearms but maintain a semblance of "renaissance" flavor, I would try upping the damage instead. If you don't care about the flavor, why not just use modern firearms?
Watchman 10-28-05, 12:11 PM	Balance, schmalance. Just give the things a nastily large base damage die, a lousy Range Increment (smoothbores + uneven quality of powder + unsophisticated action + irregularly shaped balls = lousy accuracy = short effective range), and a half-minute plus (5-6 Full-Round Actions in game terms) reload time. Oh yeah, and Martial Prof requirements max; the things are eve more "point and shoot" than crossbows. Ought to give you weapons that perform essentially like their real equivalents - great for nasty "opening shots" at a relatively short range, fairly useless at long ranges (a decent archer with a semi-decent bow easily outshoots any musketeer), cheap, easy to use, and pretty much useless for quite a while after the discharge. In war muskets were used in large masses and with coordinated volley fire, and nevertheless needed to be protected by pikemen. Pistols were essentially hand-to-hand shock weapons, not really effective past 5-10 meters; the normal practice was to shoot one or two at the foe before going in with a sword or something similar. Note that a pair of wheellock pistols eventually replaced the lance as the main weapon of close-combat cavalry - about the same reach and killing power, but far easier and more convenient to carry around and use... Mind you, bandits and assasins liked them too. Odds are your average D&D adventurer band will only be interested in the pistols, as a sort of convenient "alpha strike" weapon to weaken nemies with at the start of the battle. For serious long-range firepower the sorts of folks that make up D&D parties are way better off with decent bows.
Kendrick 10-28-05, 04:00 PM	And for "f's" sake, whatever you decide to do, reduce the range increment on a pistol. Pistols are usable at long range if you take your time and aim, but that's not exactly what the combat rules represent. Taking your time to aim a shot is, for example, a class ability for the OotBI. For rapid fire, like iterative attacks, range increment should be 30 feet maximum. Another suggestion: It would complicate balancing everything out, but it might be interesting to permit SA on rifle damage from full range, rather than just 30 feet. I'd say just once per turn, and maybe even say that it would be a full attack action to limit it.
Spus Widgetwatcher 10-28-05, 06:09 PM	I probably should rename the topic, to a more accurate "Balancing Guns into a Normal Medieval Fantasy Setting". I'm not trying to be true to historics, I want some flavor of guns in a setting without throwing balance out the window or punishing those who choose to retain bows, or go with guns. Range: Yeah, I should of did more research on that. The Revolver should be dropped to 50 feet(since 30 feet is "Point Blank", and it should be farther than that.) The Musket will probably be made to 80 feet. I originally just copied the Repeating Crossbow ranges, using them as my base weapon. Full Round vs. Standard Action: I don't think the guy should be standing perfectly still to reload his weapon, it isn't such a complicated action that you can't do it while moving. Conflict that comes up that I could understand are them picking something up or doing another MEA. Is there a term for something such as this- allowing movement, but not other MEAs? Move Action reloading a feat, so I don't see anything wrong with it- the person has taken 2 feats onto making this weapon work, and he still can't endlessly full attack like his archer buddy. Bullet Containers- I forgot about that, it shouldn't take another move action to fish it out of your bags. Bullet Belts would work. Why Single Shots suck- Unless it has insane Damage Die, it's worthless to all classes with the exception of poor BAB. And even then, once they get 13 and that extra hit, the gun usefulness goes out the window. Unless you want to do that one shot then jump into melee thing, which is still quite stupid, considering your taking a feat for something you use once a battle given they don't start all up in your face. If that was the case, I'd still take my Longbow and make my full attack as they came to me, requiring a more abundant Martial Profiency or something like being an elf- and use that feat more wisely. Exoticism- yeah, Guns are simpler to use, but they're still strange and well...exotic to the setting. Take the Blow dart- it's an exotic weapon as well,(except to say Tribal Societys) and all it requires is pointing and blowing really hard.
Jaid 10-28-05, 06:46 PM	have your guns ignore armor, and be single shot. now, no one has to buy the EWP to use them, 'cause it's so much easier to hit with anyways. they have a valid use, and i personally would probably carry around 1 or 2 specifically for the purpose of shooting once and then entering melee. alternatively, allow people to buy a brace of pistols; they can have like 6 or 7 pistols and use them one after another (via quickdraw). this still amounts to 1-2 rounds of attacks, but at 30 foot range increment, and based on the fact that you're not going to be able to hide very well, i'm thinking by the time two rounds is up you will have either killed everything, or be in melee anyways.
FlameLover 10-28-05, 07:30 PM	Spus I know what you're saying - you want the feel of firearms but don't care too much about historical accuracy (same here). Range: Yeah, I should of did more research on that. The Revolver should be dropped to 50 feet(since 30 feet is "Point Blank", and it should be farther than that.) The Musket will probably be made to 80 feet. I originally just copied the Repeating Crossbow ranges, using them as my base weapon. I'd drop Revolver to 20ft my self. They were incredibly unwielding and all that. But just making it 30ft would work too. Full Round vs. Standard Action: I don't think the guy should be standing perfectly still to reload his weapon, it isn't such a complicated action that you can't do it while moving. Conflict that comes up that I could understand are them picking something up or doing another MEA. Is there a term for something such as this- allowing movement, but not other MEAs? Move Action reloading a feat, so I don't see anything wrong with it- the person has taken 2 feats onto making this weapon work, and he still can't endlessly full attack like his archer buddy. If you wanted to be able to move and reload i'd make it a Full-Round action but you can move your speed during the reloading. That stops MEAs and stuff like Shot on the Run. Bullet Containers- I forgot about that, it shouldn't take another move action to fish it out of your bags. Bullet Belts would work. It's assumed getting aummunition is a free action so i'd just leave it that it's assumed you can get it with negligible time. Why Single Shots suck- Unless it has insane Damage Die, it's worthless to all classes with the exception of poor BAB. And even then, once they get 13 and that extra hit, the gun usefulness goes out the window. Unless you want to do that one shot then jump into melee thing, which is still quite stupid, considering your taking a feat for something you use once a battle given they don't start all up in your face. If that was the case, I'd still take my Longbow and make my full attack as they came to me, requiring a more abundant Martial Profiency or something like being an elf- and use that feat more wisely. If a single-shot takes a Move-Action to reload (such as a flintlock i'd say) you could take 2 feats and be whippin' out 1d10 damage per attack at range! If you're making them exotic i'd keep them as multi-shot though but i still think making them simple would be better. Then you'd just balance them against the crossbows and they'd be mechanically quite similar (less range increment so i could possibly a size up of damage die). But yeah as-is they seem balanced enough. Exoticism- yeah, Guns are simpler to use, but they're still strange and well...exotic to the setting. Take the Blow dart- it's an exotic weapon as well,(except to say Tribal Societys) and all it requires is pointing and blowing really hard. True - but then i made that a Simple weapon myself. I think a good rule of thumb is that weapons should only be exoitc if they are very trivky to use or are just more powerful then Simple and Martial ones. The Monk weapons are stupidly made Exotic and therefore makes them super-underpowered. But that's not for here ;) Anyway i see the following weapons: Flintlock: 1d10 one-handed exotic weapon 20/x3 reload as move action (30ft range inc.) Revolver: 1d10 one-handed exotic weapon 20/x3 reload as move action per bullet (40ft range inc.) Rifle: 2d6 two-handed-handed exotic weapon 20/x3 reload as move action (80ft range inc.) Shotgun: 2d8 two-handed exotic weapon 20/x3 reload as full-round action (two shots per reload) (10ft range inc. with -2 penalty to damage per increment) You could also have Sawnoffs (one-handed but with a -2 penalty per 5ft), Crosshairs (halves penalties from range) and the ability to over-load them (read in another thread - you put in extra gunpowder and every + bonus to damage would increase chance the gun explodes)
Watchman 10-28-05, 07:33 PM	Ignoring armour is a bit excessive. Thirty Years' War standard military specs for cavalry breastplates required them to stop a musket ball from about ten meters, after all - getting a subsonic lead ball through a tempered steel plate isn't all that easy. Although guns did have a comparatively good penetrating power - perhaps you could just rule guns ignore a certain set amount of Armor and Natural Armor AC points dependent on their size ? Anyway, I would personally recommend a high-damage, single-shot, short-range, Simple Weapon, long-reload low cost approach - essentially a sort of crossbow squared with much the same pros and cons, save that a version (ie. pistols) can easily be carried ready to fire when needed. Granted, that'll make muskets in particular fairly useless to any decent-level combatant, but then again them's the breaks with crossbows too. Besides the things are heavy and clunky; an adventurer is unlikely to carry one around anyway, largely leaving them in the hands of assorted NPCs - particularly "city guard" types... Pistols ought to still be useful much in the same role as they were used - carry a bunch, empty them at your foes at an arm's lenght, forget about them for the rest of the fight, and reload afterwards. Kind of like a noisy, high-damage, short-range throwing weapon really. Think "swashbuckler". It's not really in the spirit of things for Our Mighty Heroes(tm) and their Dastardly Foes(tm) to blast at each other with muskets, now is it ? But trading a few pistol shots before getting up close and personal with suitable implements of corporeal destruction sounds perfectly appropriate, and all the more so if we assume firearms to be a relatively new idea still far from its full potential (which AFAIK would be the assault rifle, as far as small arms go...). Or at least I would consider "Normal Medieval Fantasy Setting" to all but require such an assumption - otherwise what you're dealing with will rapidly end up as "Dungeons & Cowboys", "Napoleon & Dragons" or something thereabouts. Or, in other words, make the guns too good and pretty soon they'll be damn near the only weapons getting used...
Kendrick 10-28-05, 10:16 PM	Full Round vs. Standard Action: I don't think the guy should be standing perfectly still to reload his weapon, it isn't such a complicated action that you can't do it while moving. Conflict that comes up that I could understand are them picking something up or doing another MEA. Is there a term for something such as this- allowing movement, but not other MEAs? Move Action reloading a feat, so I don't see anything wrong with it- the person has taken 2 feats onto making this weapon work, and he still can't endlessly full attack like his archer buddy. Have you ever actually used a revolver? Full round action to reload would be reasonable, with the EWP feat and the Rapid Reload feat. That's also assuming that the bullets were ready to hand, on a bandolier or something. Allow 2 Standard actions instead if the character wanted to move while loading. Anything less is ridiculous on the same level that human characters wielding 30 ft. long anime style swords is ridiculous. And yeah, 30 ft. is "point blank range" - i. e. the range at which revolvers are comparable in accuracy compared to long guns. The only reason that handguns are used at ranges outside of 30 ft. is that it's too inconvenient to carry a rifle all the time. 30 ft. should be the maximum range increment you consider with a revolver.
Kendrick 10-28-05, 10:39 PM	Here's what I would suggest, first iteration of changes: Revolver Ranged Weapon Price: 2,000gp Damage: 2d4(S) 2d6(M) Crit Range: x3 Range Increment: 30 feet. Weight: 5 lb Damage: Piercing A revolver can be fired with one hand. A revolver can fire 6 shots before it must be reloaded. Two free hands are necessary to reload a revolver. Reloading requires 2 full round actions, plus any actions necessary to locate and draw ammunition. A character with the Rapid Reload (Revolver) feat can reload a revolver as a full round action. A player may substitute two standard actions for a full round action in order to move during the reloading process. Quick Draw is required to extract revolver ammunition from a bandolier or ammunition belt as a free action. Rifle Two Handed Weapon Price: 3,000gp Damage: 1d12(S) 2d8(M) Crit Range : x3 Range Increment: 150 feet Weight: 15 lb Damage: Piercing A move action is necessary to reload a rifle. Quick Draw is necessary to extract rifle ammunition from a bandolier or amunition belt as a free action. A character with the Rapid Reload (Rifle) feat may reload a rifle as a free action, allowing a character with itterative or extra attacks to make a full attack with a rifle.