Ballista questions. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ballista questions. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LassiterKeshell
01-18-06, 05:59 PM Quick question (referencing Heroes of Battle and PHB)

You need the Ballista Prof in order to avoid the -4 penalty for firing the ballista. I'm assuming this similar to having an exotic weapon prof, or other weapon prof.

Ballistas come in two sizes: Med and Large.

Does anyone think the -2 penalty for size difference applies?

I'm arguing against that b/c I thought -2 penalty was due to the wielding difficulty of a weapon, but you don't wield ballistas. If anything a couple of stools should suffice, I think.

I can see the argument of a collosal dragon trying to fire a med-sized ballista would probably have a penalty, but then I'd argue that it shouldn't take two full-round actions to load it for said dragon.

Any thoughts?
Rulebook
01-18-06, 06:45 PM well yes, the size penalty would be quite appropriate.

imagine what it looks like to see a dragon trying to turn that little winch with his claws to reload a ballista...

a ballista is not just a big crossbow. if you want your dragon to use something like it, give it an appropriately sized crossbow. otherwise trying to picture why a dragon would use a semistationary siege weapon is kinda funny too.
LassiterKeshell
01-19-06, 04:40 AM well yes, the size penalty would be quite appropriate.

imagine what it looks like to see a dragon trying to turn that little winch with his claws to reload a ballista...

a ballista is not just a big crossbow. if you want your dragon to use something like it, give it an appropriately sized crossbow. otherwise trying to picture why a dragon would use a semistationary siege weapon is kinda funny too.

The dragon was just an example for the opposite case; my party is made up of med and small humanoids.

I guess what I'm trying to understand is if the Heavy Ballista (Large size) is intended for human use? If so, then they would receive a -2 pentaly for size. However, there are only two sizes and I didn't see a sidebar anywhere about converting ballista size for other races. Is this to say that Gnomes and Halflings (gnomes especially) don't make ballistas?

Also, if you need a crew to man one, why would the crew chief be the only person to suffer for being small (it doesn't mention anything else about the crew being to small/large)?
Ged Coldplain
01-19-06, 04:58 AM Personally I feel the ballista rules are quite restrictive, if you make the ballista into a more gun-turret sort of device, with a sight and gunner position that would basically eliminate any penalties.
Now make it a repeating ballista (sized up repeating crossbow), powered with a captured elemental spirit or similar, and you truly have an effective gun-turret!
LassiterKeshell
01-19-06, 01:48 PM Here's a few arguments a friend of mine made concerning the ballista. He's a techie, so if you can make sense of this, by all means do.

GOAL

I am in a newly started sea going focused campaign where we are in control of our own ship and I would like to nudge the GM for us to outfit our ship with ballista in the near future.

The 14 excerpts (noted with lower case roman numerals) found at the end of this post are what I'm basing my questions and conclusions on. I am sticking to D&D books 3.5 books; I never even glance at d20 non-D&D books. If you know of other relevant information in said books, let me know.

Case: A Party Of Freaks And Misfits (POFAM) encounters a ballista and wants to carry it around and use it.

----------

Stage 1 - Factor excerpt i
The weapon is not listed under any proficiencies, so we'll just call it a ranged weapon that requires an exotic weapon proficiency. Given this, all characters in the party can choose to wield the ballista with a -4 attack penalty unless they take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Ballista).

----------
Stage 2 - Factor excerpt i-ii
Focusing in on the keywords in excerpt ii, "size of the intended wielder," we will revise our treatment of the party's newfound ballista. We assume that the ballista was intended for medium creatures. Thus the following party members of POFAM apply the appropriate size modifiers:

Attack Party Member Size
-8 Fine
-6 Diminuative
-4 Tiny
-2 Small
0 Medium
-2 Large
-4 Huge
-6 Gargantuan
-8 Colossal

Stack the potential -4 penalty if they do not have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Ballista)

----------

Stage 3 - Factor excerpt i-iii
It's hard to fit this new excerpt with what we've been working with. The ballista doesn't really fit as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for medium creatures, the supposed INTENDED size. For the moment, we're going to grimace and consider the thing a two-handed weapon. (It's ok, the pain stops after a while).

Attack Effort Party Member Size
N/A too small PC Fine
N/A too small PC Diminuative
N/A too small PC Tiny
N/A too small PC Small
0 two-handed Medium
-2 one-handed Large
-4 light Huge
N/A too large PC Gargantuan
N/A too large PC Colossal

Stack the potential -4 penalty if they do not have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Ballista)

----------

Stage 4 - Factor excerpt i-v, vii-ix
Ok, this throws a few previous assumptions out the window. Now we call it a huge, heavy crossbow? You no longer need some exotic weapon proficiency (yay)! Simple Weapon Proficiency suffices since a heavy crossbow is a simple weapon. Alas for the humans, it is no longer "intended" for medium creatures.

So if we treat it simply as a Huge Heavy Crossbow...

Attack Effort:Fire Effort:Load Party Member Size
N/A(N/A)too small PC too small PC Fine
N/A(N/A)too small PC too small PC Diminuative
N/A(N/A)too small PC too small PC Tiny
N/A(N/A)too small PC too small PC Small
N/A(N/A)too small PC too small PC Medium
N/A(-6) too small PC(two-handed)too small PC Large
0(-4) two-handed(one-handed) two-handed Huge
-2(-6) one-handed(light) one-handed Gargantuan
-4(N/A) light(too large PC) light Colossal
() indicate reduced effort

Stack the potential -4 penalty if they do not have Simple Weapon Proficiency

Heavy Crossbow Statistics (Huge Heavy Crossbow)
Proficiency Simple
Cost 50 gp
Ammo 1 gp
Damage (M) 3d8
Critical 19-20/x2
Range Increment 120 ft
Weight 32 lbs.
Ammo 1 lb.
Type Piercing

BUT, everything past the first sentence from excerpt viii blows this out the water...partially. Apparently, the level of effort is disregarded. They give examples of small and medium creatures being able to fire the thing. If my chart above is correct, they aren't allowed to use Huge Heavy Crossbows in any way due to level of effort problems. Don't think about this too hard, reading the last sentence of the excerpt also implies that a fly sized creature can actually reload a ballista in two turns. Crap...I thought about it *head explodes*.

Ok, so with this interpretation, here is the way we're going to go. For all statistical purposes, treat as a Huge Heavy Crossbow. Apply the standard penalty of -2 per size difference. Ignore normal level of effort rules to a degree; on the small creature end, always allow everything to be done as a at least a two-handed task.

Attack Effort:Fire Effort:Load Load Rounds Party Member Size
-12(-16)two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 2 Fine
-10(-14)two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 2 Diminuative
-8(-12) two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 2 Tiny
-6(-10) two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 2 Small
-4(-8) two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 2 Medium
-2(-6) two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 1 Large
0(-4) two-handed(one-handed) two-handed 1 Huge
-2(-6) one-handed(light) one-handed 1 Gargantuan
-4(-8) light(too large PC) light 1 Colossal
() indicate reduced effort

Stack the potential -4 penalty if they do not have Simple Weapon Proficiency

Heavy Crossbow Statistics (Huge Heavy Crossbow)
Proficiency Simple
Cost 50 gp
Ammo 1 gp
Damage (M) 3d8
Critical 19-20/x2
Range Increment 120 ft
Weight 32 lbs.
Ammo 1 lb.
Type Piercing

These stats match what can be found from excerpt iX, so yay for something working out correctly!

----------

Stage 5 - Factor excerpt i-v, vii, x-xiv

Read excerpt x...crap, we've been wasting time. Sort of. If you have no intention of using Heroes of Battle, read no further. I on the otherhand do, so I want the details that book provides.
Much info can be gleaned from excerpt xi. Apprently, a ballista is now NOT a huge heavy crossbw, it is just similar to a huge crossbow. It is now described more like a seige engine or a piece of machinery instead of an oversized weapon. It can now be manned by several people. Now there are at last two 'standard' sized ballistas...and now I will attempt to get muddled on a few things...

I'll focus on the Light Ballista first. As per excerpt xiii, it's stats are such:

Light Ballista Statistics
Cost 500 gp
Ammo 1 gp
Damage 3d8
Critical 19-20/x2
Range Increment 100 ft.
Minimum Range -
Maximum Range 1000 ft.
Crew 2
Hardness 5
HP 25
Weight 400 lbs.
Ammo 6 lb.
Size Medium

Yay for something noticed in stage 2 - this thing is intended for medium people again! From this I would infer the following:

Attack Party Member Size
-8 Fine
-6 Diminuative
-4 Tiny
-2 Small
0 Medium
-2 Large
-4 Huge
-6 Gargantuan
-8 Colossal

Stack the potential -4 penalty if they do not have Ballista Proficiency

Crew = 2...is this a limit? Could I have more? Is there any penalty for less?
I'd say this is a suggestion or maybe a 'standard' in armies, but 2 is not a limit. You could have more, but their usefulness would wane depending on their size. I'd say that in a given turn, one of two things is happening: people are reloading or the chief is firing.
If people are reloading, well, as per the latter part of excerpt xi, 2 medium creatures could each each take a full-round Load Ballista action, or 1 large (or larger), or 4 small, or some appropriate combination. As far as different sized teams are concerned, consider that a small guy does .5 load work, a medium guy does 1 load work, and a large (or larger) guy does 2 load work. When at least 2 load work is done, the thing can be fired by the chief next round.
If the crew chief is firing, there is mention that the other members of the crew can assist him. How exactly they are doing this, I am unsure. But I think this is where the crew number from excerpt xiii comes in. The chief + assisting people can at most be that crew number. So, for a light ballista, only one guy can assist the chief in firing the thing.
We finally get to use an excerpt I sort of skipped over: excerpt vi. As a rule, you use your dex modifier to fire ranged weapons...does that kick in here? I am not sure what to make of this. The wording in excerpt xi makes no mention of dex modifier. BEFORE you decide on that part, there is the other part from excerpt vi, size. I'm not talking about the previously mentioned size penalty for using something not intended for you, I'm talking about the size modifier bonus to attacks and AC that small guys get (and penalties for large guys). Should that kick in? If the dex bonus should, then I think the size should. Honestly, I don't think either should for stationary seige engines like this. IF YOU LET THEM KICK IN, then the following are what the bonuses and penalties would look like for a Dex 10-11 creature:

Attack Party Member Size
0 Fine
-2 Diminuative
-2 Tiny
-1 Small
0 Medium
-3 Large
-6 Huge
-10 Gargantuan
-16 Colossal

Ok, that hurts to look at.
I'll throw more food for thought out there. Infer something from excerpt xii. Tiny or smaller creatures cannot even fire the damn thing. I don't actually think this should be the case...

------------
The following excerpts are ordered by book (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Heroes Of Battle) and then page number.
------------
Excerpt i
"A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls."
Player's Handbook, p.112, column 2, Weapon Categories: Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons

Excerpt ii
"A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of the intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder."
Player's Handbook, p. 113, column 2, Weapon Categories: Weapon Size (Inappropriately Sized Weapons)

Excerpt iii
"The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designed as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed...If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all."
Player's Handbook, p. 113, column 2, Weapon Categories: Weapon Size (Inappropriately Sized Weapons)

Excerpt iv
"Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a -4 penalty on attack rolls."
Player's Handbook, p. 115, column 2, Weapon Descriptions: Crossbow, Heavy

Excerpt v
Heavy Crossbow Statistics (Medium Heavy Crossbow)
Proficiency Simple
Cost 50 gp
Ammo 1 gp
Damage (M) 1d10
Critical 19-20/x2
Range Increment 120 ft
Weight 8 lbs.
Ammo 1 lb.
Type Piercing
Player's Handbook, p. 116, Table 7-5: Weapons

Excerpt vi
"With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is: Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty"
Player's Handbook, p. 135, column 1, Attack Bonus

Excerpt vii
Weapon Size
Medium Large Huge Gargntn Colassal
Damage
1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8
1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6
1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 3d6
1d6 1d8 2d6 3d6 4d6
1d8 2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6
1d10 2d8 3d8 4d8 6d8
1d12 3d6 4d6 6d6 8d6
2d4 2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6
2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6 8d6
2d8 3d8 4d8 6d8 8d8
2d10 4d8 6d8 8d8 12d8
Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 28, Table 2-2: Increasing Weapon Damage By Size

Excerpt viii
"A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. Its size makes it hard for most creatures to aim it, as described under Weapon Size on page 113 of the Player's Handbook. Thus, a Medium creature takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls when using a ballista, and a Small creature takes a -6 penalty. It takes a creature smaller than Large two full-round actions to reload the ballista after firing."
Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 100, column 1, Seiege Engines: Ballista

Excerpt ix
Ballista Statistics
Cost 500 gp
Damage 3d8
Critical 19-20
Range Increment 120 ft.
Typical Crew 1
Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 100, Table 3-26: Seige Engines

Excerpt x
"The Dungeon Master's Guide provides rudimentary information on seige engines (see pages 99-100). While that material is sufficient for an occasional encounter featuring a ballista or a battering ram, a campaign that prominently features seige engines requires more detail. For that reason, the information in this chapter augments and supercedes the information in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
All statistics for the seige engines in this chapter assume they are designed for Medium creatures. Adjust as appropriate for seige engines designed for smaller or larger creatures."
Heroes Of Battle, p. 63, column 2, Seige Engines

Excerpt xi
"Ballista: This torsion-powered catapult looks rather like a huge crossbow that launches large harpoonlike bolts through the air.
Firing a ballista requires an attack roll by the crew chief, using the crew chief's base attack bonus and any range increment penalties (since this is a direct attack, no Intelligence modifier applies, unlike with those catapults that make indirect attacks). Unless the crew chief has the Ballista proficiency feat (See p. 96), he takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Additional members of the crew can use the aid another action to grant the crew chief a +2 bonus on the attack roll by succeeding on a DC Profession (seige engineer) check. Unlike most other catapults, a ballista aims at either a creature or an object (such as a section of wall) rather than a square.
Loading a light ballista requires two full-round actions (that is, two crew members can load it in a single full round). Loading a heavy ballista requires four full-round actions. A ballista need not be reaimed; each attack succeeds or fails independent of previous attack rolls."
Heroes Of Battle, p. 65-66

Excerpt xii
"Large or larger creatures load a catapult in half the given time, while Small creatures require twice the time. Tiny creatures can't load a catapult."
Heroes Of Battle, p. 65, Sidebar, column 1

Excerpt xiii
Light Ballista Statistics
Cost 500 gp
Ammo 1 gp
Damage 3d8
Critical 19-20/x2
Range Increment 100 ft.
Minimum Range -
Maximum Range 1000 ft.
Crew 2
Hardness 5
HP 25
Weight 400 lbs.
Ammo 6 lb.
Size Medium
Heavy Ballista Statistics
Cost 1000 gp
Ammo 1 gp
Damage 5d8
Critical 19-20/x2
Range Increment 120 ft.
Minimum Range -
Maximum Range 1200 ft.
Crew 4
Hardness 5
HP 675
Weight 2000 lbs.
Ammo 6 lb.
Size Huge
Heroes Of Battle, p. 67, Table 4-1: Seige Engines

Excerpt xiv
Ballista Proficiency
You are trained in ballista operation.
Benefit: You do not take the normal -4 nonproficiency penalty when making an attack roll with a ballista (see page 65).
Special: A fighter can select Ballista Proficiency as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38 of the Player's Handbook).
Heroes Of Battle, p. 96, column 2, Ballista Proficiency
LassiterKeshell
01-21-06, 01:10 AM Yeah, I thought is was a little too much too.
LazarusDarkeyes
01-26-06, 01:28 AM No one dared comment on the insanity I just threw out there? (I'm the guy who wrote that stuff).

Darn.
crossbow
01-26-06, 02:08 PM Ok, slow down a moment. First things first, you are way over thinking this and you are making several false assumptions. First, a ballista is a siege weapon, not a hand carried weapon, and therefore you can pretty safely ignore the size penalties. It�s run by a crew and firing one has nothing to do with personal size, just as firing a howitzer has nothing to do with how big you are. This is not a weapon that you can pick up and carry around with you (well, maybe if you are Huge size, but then I�d uses the rules for a Huge sized crossbow and be done with it). These things are mounted to a platform of some kind (ship deck, castle, cart, built on wheels etc.) and are ranged by a spotter (the person in D&D that is making the attack roll). Without a clear knowledge of how the weapon works and what its potential is (AKA, a feat) than the spotter should take a -4 to his attack. With the feat you could remove the penalty and use the weapon, providing you had a crew. It doesn�t need to be any more complex than that. Read your Excerpt�s xi, xii, xiii and xiv, they spell things out pretty clearly.

crossbow
tarkin
01-26-06, 03:25 PM It should also be noted that there is one more excerpt, that directly contradicts Exceprt XI.

The DMG says that you get NO BAB when firing seige weapons, like a ballista. This contradicts the Heroes of Battle information, which says use the Crew Chief's BAB.

If asked, I would instead House Rule that to use your BAB, you need a feat called 'Siege Weapon Crew Chief'. This would be in addition to Ballista Proficiency.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LassiterKeshell 01-18-06, 05:59 PM	Quick question (referencing Heroes of Battle and PHB) You need the Ballista Prof in order to avoid the -4 penalty for firing the ballista. I'm assuming this similar to having an exotic weapon prof, or other weapon prof. Ballistas come in two sizes: Med and Large. Does anyone think the -2 penalty for size difference applies? I'm arguing against that b/c I thought -2 penalty was due to the wielding difficulty of a weapon, but you don't wield ballistas. If anything a couple of stools should suffice, I think. I can see the argument of a collosal dragon trying to fire a med-sized ballista would probably have a penalty, but then I'd argue that it shouldn't take two full-round actions to load it for said dragon. Any thoughts?
Rulebook 01-18-06, 06:45 PM	well yes, the size penalty would be quite appropriate. imagine what it looks like to see a dragon trying to turn that little winch with his claws to reload a ballista... a ballista is not just a big crossbow. if you want your dragon to use something like it, give it an appropriately sized crossbow. otherwise trying to picture why a dragon would use a semistationary siege weapon is kinda funny too.
LassiterKeshell 01-19-06, 04:40 AM	well yes, the size penalty would be quite appropriate. imagine what it looks like to see a dragon trying to turn that little winch with his claws to reload a ballista... a ballista is not just a big crossbow. if you want your dragon to use something like it, give it an appropriately sized crossbow. otherwise trying to picture why a dragon would use a semistationary siege weapon is kinda funny too. The dragon was just an example for the opposite case; my party is made up of med and small humanoids. I guess what I'm trying to understand is if the Heavy Ballista (Large size) is intended for human use? If so, then they would receive a -2 pentaly for size. However, there are only two sizes and I didn't see a sidebar anywhere about converting ballista size for other races. Is this to say that Gnomes and Halflings (gnomes especially) don't make ballistas? Also, if you need a crew to man one, why would the crew chief be the only person to suffer for being small (it doesn't mention anything else about the crew being to small/large)?
Ged Coldplain 01-19-06, 04:58 AM	Personally I feel the ballista rules are quite restrictive, if you make the ballista into a more gun-turret sort of device, with a sight and gunner position that would basically eliminate any penalties. Now make it a repeating ballista (sized up repeating crossbow), powered with a captured elemental spirit or similar, and you truly have an effective gun-turret!
LassiterKeshell 01-19-06, 01:48 PM	Here's a few arguments a friend of mine made concerning the ballista. He's a techie, so if you can make sense of this, by all means do. GOAL I am in a newly started sea going focused campaign where we are in control of our own ship and I would like to nudge the GM for us to outfit our ship with ballista in the near future. The 14 excerpts (noted with lower case roman numerals) found at the end of this post are what I'm basing my questions and conclusions on. I am sticking to D&D books 3.5 books; I never even glance at d20 non-D&D books. If you know of other relevant information in said books, let me know. Case: A Party Of Freaks And Misfits (POFAM) encounters a ballista and wants to carry it around and use it. ---------- Stage 1 - Factor excerpt i The weapon is not listed under any proficiencies, so we'll just call it a ranged weapon that requires an exotic weapon proficiency. Given this, all characters in the party can choose to wield the ballista with a -4 attack penalty unless they take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Ballista). ---------- Stage 2 - Factor excerpt i-ii Focusing in on the keywords in excerpt ii, "size of the intended wielder," we will revise our treatment of the party's newfound ballista. We assume that the ballista was intended for medium creatures. Thus the following party members of POFAM apply the appropriate size modifiers: Attack Party Member Size -8 Fine -6 Diminuative -4 Tiny -2 Small 0 Medium -2 Large -4 Huge -6 Gargantuan -8 Colossal Stack the potential -4 penalty if they do not have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Ballista) ---------- Stage 3 - Factor excerpt i-iii It's hard to fit this new excerpt with what we've been working with. The ballista doesn't really fit as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for medium creatures, the supposed INTENDED size. For the moment, we're going to grimace and consider the thing a two-handed weapon. (It's ok, the pain stops after a while). Attack Effort Party Member Size N/A too small PC Fine N/A too small PC Diminuative N/A too small PC Tiny N/A too small PC Small 0 two-handed Medium -2 one-handed Large -4 light Huge N/A too large PC Gargantuan N/A too large PC Colossal Stack the potential -4 penalty if they do not have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Ballista) ---------- Stage 4 - Factor excerpt i-v, vii-ix Ok, this throws a few previous assumptions out the window. Now we call it a huge, heavy crossbow? You no longer need some exotic weapon proficiency (yay)! Simple Weapon Proficiency suffices since a heavy crossbow is a simple weapon. Alas for the humans, it is no longer "intended" for medium creatures. So if we treat it simply as a Huge Heavy Crossbow... Attack Effort:Fire Effort:Load Party Member Size N/A(N/A)too small PC too small PC Fine N/A(N/A)too small PC too small PC Diminuative N/A(N/A)too small PC too small PC Tiny N/A(N/A)too small PC too small PC Small N/A(N/A)too small PC too small PC Medium N/A(-6) too small PC(two-handed)too small PC Large 0(-4) two-handed(one-handed) two-handed Huge -2(-6) one-handed(light) one-handed Gargantuan -4(N/A) light(too large PC) light Colossal () indicate reduced effort Stack the potential -4 penalty if they do not have Simple Weapon Proficiency Heavy Crossbow Statistics (Huge Heavy Crossbow) Proficiency Simple Cost 50 gp Ammo 1 gp Damage (M) 3d8 Critical 19-20/x2 Range Increment 120 ft Weight 32 lbs. Ammo 1 lb. Type Piercing BUT, everything past the first sentence from excerpt viii blows this out the water...partially. Apparently, the level of effort is disregarded. They give examples of small and medium creatures being able to fire the thing. If my chart above is correct, they aren't allowed to use Huge Heavy Crossbows in any way due to level of effort problems. Don't think about this too hard, reading the last sentence of the excerpt also implies that a fly sized creature can actually reload a ballista in two turns. Crap...I thought about it head explodes. Ok, so with this interpretation, here is the way we're going to go. For all statistical purposes, treat as a Huge Heavy Crossbow. Apply the standard penalty of -2 per size difference. Ignore normal level of effort rules to a degree; on the small creature end, always allow everything to be done as a at least a two-handed task. Attack Effort:Fire Effort:Load Load Rounds Party Member Size -12(-16)two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 2 Fine -10(-14)two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 2 Diminuative -8(-12) two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 2 Tiny -6(-10) two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 2 Small -4(-8) two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 2 Medium -2(-6) two-handed(two-handed) two-handed 1 Large 0(-4) two-handed(one-handed) two-handed 1 Huge -2(-6) one-handed(light) one-handed 1 Gargantuan -4(-8) light(too large PC) light 1 Colossal () indicate reduced effort Stack the potential -4 penalty if they do not have Simple Weapon Proficiency Heavy Crossbow Statistics (Huge Heavy Crossbow) Proficiency Simple Cost 50 gp Ammo 1 gp Damage (M) 3d8 Critical 19-20/x2 Range Increment 120 ft Weight 32 lbs. Ammo 1 lb. Type Piercing These stats match what can be found from excerpt iX, so yay for something working out correctly! ---------- Stage 5 - Factor excerpt i-v, vii, x-xiv Read excerpt x...crap, we've been wasting time. Sort of. If you have no intention of using Heroes of Battle, read no further. I on the otherhand do, so I want the details that book provides. Much info can be gleaned from excerpt xi. Apprently, a ballista is now NOT a huge heavy crossbw, it is just similar to a huge crossbow. It is now described more like a seige engine or a piece of machinery instead of an oversized weapon. It can now be manned by several people. Now there are at last two 'standard' sized ballistas...and now I will attempt to get muddled on a few things... I'll focus on the Light Ballista first. As per excerpt xiii, it's stats are such: Light Ballista Statistics Cost 500 gp Ammo 1 gp Damage 3d8 Critical 19-20/x2 Range Increment 100 ft. Minimum Range - Maximum Range 1000 ft. Crew 2 Hardness 5 HP 25 Weight 400 lbs. Ammo 6 lb. Size Medium Yay for something noticed in stage 2 - this thing is intended for medium people again! From this I would infer the following: Attack Party Member Size -8 Fine -6 Diminuative -4 Tiny -2 Small 0 Medium -2 Large -4 Huge -6 Gargantuan -8 Colossal Stack the potential -4 penalty if they do not have Ballista Proficiency Crew = 2...is this a limit? Could I have more? Is there any penalty for less? I'd say this is a suggestion or maybe a 'standard' in armies, but 2 is not a limit. You could have more, but their usefulness would wane depending on their size. I'd say that in a given turn, one of two things is happening: people are reloading or the chief is firing. If people are reloading, well, as per the latter part of excerpt xi, 2 medium creatures could each each take a full-round Load Ballista action, or 1 large (or larger), or 4 small, or some appropriate combination. As far as different sized teams are concerned, consider that a small guy does .5 load work, a medium guy does 1 load work, and a large (or larger) guy does 2 load work. When at least 2 load work is done, the thing can be fired by the chief next round. If the crew chief is firing, there is mention that the other members of the crew can assist him. How exactly they are doing this, I am unsure. But I think this is where the crew number from excerpt xiii comes in. The chief + assisting people can at most be that crew number. So, for a light ballista, only one guy can assist the chief in firing the thing. We finally get to use an excerpt I sort of skipped over: excerpt vi. As a rule, you use your dex modifier to fire ranged weapons...does that kick in here? I am not sure what to make of this. The wording in excerpt xi makes no mention of dex modifier. BEFORE you decide on that part, there is the other part from excerpt vi, size. I'm not talking about the previously mentioned size penalty for using something not intended for you, I'm talking about the size modifier bonus to attacks and AC that small guys get (and penalties for large guys). Should that kick in? If the dex bonus should, then I think the size should. Honestly, I don't think either should for stationary seige engines like this. IF YOU LET THEM KICK IN, then the following are what the bonuses and penalties would look like for a Dex 10-11 creature: Attack Party Member Size 0 Fine -2 Diminuative -2 Tiny -1 Small 0 Medium -3 Large -6 Huge -10 Gargantuan -16 Colossal Ok, that hurts to look at. I'll throw more food for thought out there. Infer something from excerpt xii. Tiny or smaller creatures cannot even fire the damn thing. I don't actually think this should be the case... ------------ The following excerpts are ordered by book (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Heroes Of Battle) and then page number. ------------ Excerpt i "A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls." Player's Handbook, p.112, column 2, Weapon Categories: Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons Excerpt ii "A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of the intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder." Player's Handbook, p. 113, column 2, Weapon Categories: Weapon Size (Inappropriately Sized Weapons) Excerpt iii "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designed as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed...If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all." Player's Handbook, p. 113, column 2, Weapon Categories: Weapon Size (Inappropriately Sized Weapons) Excerpt iv "Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a -4 penalty on attack rolls." Player's Handbook, p. 115, column 2, Weapon Descriptions: Crossbow, Heavy Excerpt v Heavy Crossbow Statistics (Medium Heavy Crossbow) Proficiency Simple Cost 50 gp Ammo 1 gp Damage (M) 1d10 Critical 19-20/x2 Range Increment 120 ft Weight 8 lbs. Ammo 1 lb. Type Piercing Player's Handbook, p. 116, Table 7-5: Weapons Excerpt vi "With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is: Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty" Player's Handbook, p. 135, column 1, Attack Bonus Excerpt vii Weapon Size Medium Large Huge Gargntn Colassal Damage 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 3d6 1d6 1d8 2d6 3d6 4d6 1d8 2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6 1d10 2d8 3d8 4d8 6d8 1d12 3d6 4d6 6d6 8d6 2d4 2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6 2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6 8d6 2d8 3d8 4d8 6d8 8d8 2d10 4d8 6d8 8d8 12d8 Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 28, Table 2-2: Increasing Weapon Damage By Size Excerpt viii "A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. Its size makes it hard for most creatures to aim it, as described under Weapon Size on page 113 of the Player's Handbook. Thus, a Medium creature takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls when using a ballista, and a Small creature takes a -6 penalty. It takes a creature smaller than Large two full-round actions to reload the ballista after firing." Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 100, column 1, Seiege Engines: Ballista Excerpt ix Ballista Statistics Cost 500 gp Damage 3d8 Critical 19-20 Range Increment 120 ft. Typical Crew 1 Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 100, Table 3-26: Seige Engines Excerpt x "The Dungeon Master's Guide provides rudimentary information on seige engines (see pages 99-100). While that material is sufficient for an occasional encounter featuring a ballista or a battering ram, a campaign that prominently features seige engines requires more detail. For that reason, the information in this chapter augments and supercedes the information in the Dungeon Master's Guide. All statistics for the seige engines in this chapter assume they are designed for Medium creatures. Adjust as appropriate for seige engines designed for smaller or larger creatures." Heroes Of Battle, p. 63, column 2, Seige Engines Excerpt xi "Ballista: This torsion-powered catapult looks rather like a huge crossbow that launches large harpoonlike bolts through the air. Firing a ballista requires an attack roll by the crew chief, using the crew chief's base attack bonus and any range increment penalties (since this is a direct attack, no Intelligence modifier applies, unlike with those catapults that make indirect attacks). Unless the crew chief has the Ballista proficiency feat (See p. 96), he takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Additional members of the crew can use the aid another action to grant the crew chief a +2 bonus on the attack roll by succeeding on a DC Profession (seige engineer) check. Unlike most other catapults, a ballista aims at either a creature or an object (such as a section of wall) rather than a square. Loading a light ballista requires two full-round actions (that is, two crew members can load it in a single full round). Loading a heavy ballista requires four full-round actions. A ballista need not be reaimed; each attack succeeds or fails independent of previous attack rolls." Heroes Of Battle, p. 65-66 Excerpt xii "Large or larger creatures load a catapult in half the given time, while Small creatures require twice the time. Tiny creatures can't load a catapult." Heroes Of Battle, p. 65, Sidebar, column 1 Excerpt xiii Light Ballista Statistics Cost 500 gp Ammo 1 gp Damage 3d8 Critical 19-20/x2 Range Increment 100 ft. Minimum Range - Maximum Range 1000 ft. Crew 2 Hardness 5 HP 25 Weight 400 lbs. Ammo 6 lb. Size Medium Heavy Ballista Statistics Cost 1000 gp Ammo 1 gp Damage 5d8 Critical 19-20/x2 Range Increment 120 ft. Minimum Range - Maximum Range 1200 ft. Crew 4 Hardness 5 HP 675 Weight 2000 lbs. Ammo 6 lb. Size Huge Heroes Of Battle, p. 67, Table 4-1: Seige Engines Excerpt xiv Ballista Proficiency You are trained in ballista operation. Benefit: You do not take the normal -4 nonproficiency penalty when making an attack roll with a ballista (see page 65). Special: A fighter can select Ballista Proficiency as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38 of the Player's Handbook). Heroes Of Battle, p. 96, column 2, Ballista Proficiency
LassiterKeshell 01-21-06, 01:10 AM	Yeah, I thought is was a little too much too.
LazarusDarkeyes 01-26-06, 01:28 AM	No one dared comment on the insanity I just threw out there? (I'm the guy who wrote that stuff). Darn.
crossbow 01-26-06, 02:08 PM	Ok, slow down a moment. First things first, you are way over thinking this and you are making several false assumptions. First, a ballista is a siege weapon, not a hand carried weapon, and therefore you can pretty safely ignore the size penalties. It�s run by a crew and firing one has nothing to do with personal size, just as firing a howitzer has nothing to do with how big you are. This is not a weapon that you can pick up and carry around with you (well, maybe if you are Huge size, but then I�d uses the rules for a Huge sized crossbow and be done with it). These things are mounted to a platform of some kind (ship deck, castle, cart, built on wheels etc.) and are ranged by a spotter (the person in D&D that is making the attack roll). Without a clear knowledge of how the weapon works and what its potential is (AKA, a feat) than the spotter should take a -4 to his attack. With the feat you could remove the penalty and use the weapon, providing you had a crew. It doesn�t need to be any more complex than that. Read your Excerpt�s xi, xii, xiii and xiv, they spell things out pretty clearly. crossbow
tarkin 01-26-06, 03:25 PM	It should also be noted that there is one more excerpt, that directly contradicts Exceprt XI. The DMG says that you get NO BAB when firing seige weapons, like a ballista. This contradicts the Heroes of Battle information, which says use the Crew Chief's BAB. If asked, I would instead House Rule that to use your BAB, you need a feat called 'Siege Weapon Crew Chief'. This would be in addition to Ballista Proficiency.