Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Daelvil 09-01-04, 03:11 PM	During my campaign last night a person came up with the idea of having a Bandolier which has enchantment placed on pockets to enchant bolts like a flame arrow 1/day. If a item was created which would be able to all elements 1/day what would it cost? Keep in mind it will use the Flame Arrow spell with Spell affinity feat each element would be able to be used once per day. Ie Flame, Lighting, Acid and Cold.
tiercel 09-01-04, 06:05 PM	Well, let's start from the rules as written: Command word item: Spell level (3) x Caster level (5) x 1800 gp = 27000 gp No space limitation (bandolier): x2 4 uses per day (here we'll assume that 4 different energy types counts as four uses of essentially the same effect, with variations, rather than four separate effects. I think it is reasonable to say that 1 fire, 1 cold, 1 acid, 1 electricity is comparable to 4 fire -- if you could mix-and-match, getting 4 uses of any energy, determined at the time of use, then the price should increase): x0.8 So that comes out to 43 200gp. (Ouch.) If you say that the bandolier takes up the shirt/vest slot, then you can go from "no space limitation" (x2) to "uncustomary space limitation" (x1.5), and reduce the price to 32 400gp, or if your DM doesn't enforce the "uncustomary" rules (e.g., freely allows things like vests of resistance) eliminate the space limitation modifier altogether for a price of 21 600gp. So these are starting points: let's see if there are any similar items. A scabbard of keen edges will make any bladed sword/dagger shaped weapon keen, up to 3 times per day, and costs 16 000gp. Keen is a +1 effective bonus to an item, as are the various energy +1d6 enhancements. Scaling the scabbard from 3 uses per day to 4 gives 21 333gp. The scabbard works on all melee weapons of a type, and the bandolier would only work on all ammunition of a type (e.g., crossbow bolts). The scabbard, as far as I can tell, is unslotted, so maybe we can let that whole business slide. So, this gives us something like: Bandolier of Energetic Bolts This bandolier is sized to hold a single case of crossbow bolts. When a command word is used, all of the bolts within the case are energized with a specific form of energy (acid, fire, electricity, or cold, no more than one energy type at the same time, 1/day each) for 50 minutes and deal +1d6 damage of that energy type. The bolts, case, and bandolier take no damage from the imbued energy. Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, flame arrow, Energy Substitution feat; Price 21,600 gp. How does sound?
Daelvil 09-02-04, 10:36 AM	That was about what we were thinking. I just wanted to make sure. thanks for the input.
Bartleby_GoC 09-02-04, 12:58 PM	Bandolier of Energetic Bolts For the cursed version, energy is limited to flaming, and they instantly become animated objects that run around,franticly encouraging people to do low impact aerobics to old, out-of-style music. Bartleby
Harliquinn 09-02-04, 02:17 PM	Since I am the one in the campaign who is looking at making the item, thought I would comment. Thanks for the reply Tiercel. I believe some of the assumptions may be a bit off, though the final price is in the ballpark of what I was expecting. Here's my assumptions for the Bandolier: 1) Flame Arrow (Level 3 spell, Caster Level 5) 2) Command Word activated (Standard action) 3) Unslotted (Much like many Wondrous Items) 4) Bandoliers have 10 pockets (12 if Masterwork) each holding I think 1-2 lbs (It's in FRCS) 5) Each pocket of a bandolier could hold a cartridge of Bolts for a repeating crossbow 6) Need Elemental Affinity feat ===================== Discussion: I don't know where the x2 multiplier for unslotted comes from on Command or Use activated items. I think that only applies to Continuous items. The only example I found for items that were multiplied by 2 and were unslotted were Ioun stones and most of those duplicate the continuous abilities of other slots. Examples: Gem of Seeing(True Seeing) Level 6xCaster 11 = 66 * 2000 (Use activated) = 132,000 (30 minutes /day is about 3/day at 11 minutes each [Duration of spell based on 11th level caster]) = 132,00 / (5/3) = 79,200 GP (DMG lists 75,000). Considering 3/day for 10 minutes is a lot more restrictive than 30 minutes at any time, so if anything the price would be more. Eversmoking Bottle (Pyrotechnics) Level2xCaster 3 = 6*1800 (Command Word) = 10,800 (DMG lists 5,400, exactly half this, so not sure where that comes in) Horn of Fog (Obscuring Mist) Level 1xCaster 1 = 1*2000 (Use Activated) = 2,000 (DMG lists 2,000). These aren't comprehensive, but it appears the x2 multiplier might only appear to continuous effects that are non-slotted (Such as a +2 to Dexterity). With that in mind....here is my take on it. ================= Creation Costs: 1) Base Price: 27,000 GP - Unlimited use Command Word: Flame Arrow Level 3 * Caster 5 = 15 * 1800 (Command Word) = 27,000 GP - This would cast the Flame Arrow spell on 50 ammunition by Command Word any number of times per day. 2) Price for 1/Day: 5,400 GP - Base / (5 / Uses) = 27,000 / (5/1) = 5,400. 3) Acid Price (1/Day): 4,050 GP - 75% of Cost - Adding Additional Similar Abilities (DMG): Full Price of most costly + 75% of next most costly + 50% of all other abilities. 4) Cold Price (1/Day): 2,700 GP - 50% of Cost 5) Electricity Price (1/Day): 2,700 GP - 50% of Cost 6) Partial Total Cost: 14,850 GP - Bandolier which can enchant 50 arrows with Flame Arrow, Acid Arrow, Cold Arrow or Electricty Arrow each 1/day for 50 minutes. 7) Handy Haversack Price: 3,000 GP - 50% Increase in Cost for different ability - Each of the 12 pockets can hold 10 pounds (1 cubic foot) each and items are drawn as a move action by naming what you wish to draw forth. 8) Total Cost: 17,850 GP - Bandolier which can enchant a 'pocket' full of up to 50 ammunition with Flame Arrow, Cold Arrow, Electricity Arrow, Acid Arrow for 50 minutes. Each of the abilityes may be used 1/Day. Conclusions: The price seems about right for such an item, maybe a little on the low side. If you consider purchasing 4 bows of +1 Flaming, +1 Frost, +1 Shock, and +1 Acid at 8,000 GP each, that's 32,000 (This establishes the absolute upper level cap that a Bandolier of this type should cost). However, those bows are permanently enchanted and any arrow fired receives that property, so you could get more uses from them over a day. You might also get a single bow of +1 Flaming, Frost, Acid, Shock at a cost of 50,000 gp (This is more useful since you only need one bow but costs substantially more). That being said, the price Brent came up with of 21,600 gp is also reasonable as it is 5,400 * 4 (For each element). This is a viable choice as well, considering each ability as completely separate. For that price, however, I would imagine that you could stack the energies if you wanted (It would take 1 standard action for each though). So the choices in my mind would be: 1) Bandolier of Energetic Bolts I: 14,850 gp (Makes up to 50 bolts Fire, Acid, Cold, or Electricity 1/Day each, with no stacking of effects, for 50 minutes) 2) Bandolier of Energetic Bolts II: 21,600 gp (Makes up to 50 bolts Fire, Acid, Cold, or Electricity 1/Day each, with stacking, for 50 minutes) 3) Bountiful Bandolier: +3,000 gp (Each of 12 pockets holds 10 pounds, 1 cubic foot, of ammunition and may be drawn as a move action). I would make requirements: Moderate transmutation (For the 4 different effects) CL 7th (Same as flaming property), Craft Wondrous Item, Flame Arrow, Elemental Affinity (What it's called in 3.5). Therefore, taking the conservative approach (including the Haversack ability) would leave: [B]Bountiful Bandolier of Energetic Bolts A bandolier of this type appears to be well made and maintained, but quite ordinary. It is crafted of finely tanned leather and decorative stitching along the edges. An array of 12 pockets stretches along the front, complete with brass hardware and buckles. Each of the pockets appears to hold about an object weighing 1 pound. In fact, each pocket is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 1 cubic feet in volume or 10 pounds in weight. Even when so filled, the bandolier always weighs only 5 pounds. Each pocket may hold up to 60 arrows, 100 bolts or 20 sling stones (half this number if additional containers are used such as repeating crossbow cartridges). While such storage is useful enough, the bandolier has an even greater power in addition. When the wearer reaches into a pocket for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a pocket contains. Retrieving any specific item from a bandolier's pocket is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does. With a command word, the wearer of the bandolier may cause up to 50 pieces of ammunition of the same type in one of the pockets to be energized by either acid, cold, fire, or electricity. Each energy type may be used once per day, each requiring a standard action and a different command word to activate. The effect lasts for 1 hour and during this time, any ammunition affected does an additional +1d6 damage of the appropriate type. Energy effects may be combined, so that one pocket may be affected by fire and acid at the same time. The ammunition, case and bandolier suffer no detrimental effects from the imbued energy. The effect ends after 1 hour, whether the ammunition is used or not. This bandolier has 12 pockets across the length. When a command word is used, all of the bolts within the case are energized with a specific form of energy (acid, fire, electricity, or cold, no more than one energy type at the same time, 1/day each) for 50 minutes and deal +1d6 damage of that energy type. The bolts, case, and bandolier take no damage from the imbued energy. Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, flame arrow, Energy Substitution feat; Price 24,600 gp. The stacking of effects isn't critical to the functionality of the item, but I would think that if you can't stack, the price might be the 17,845 gp instead of 24,600 gp price. Thanks again!
tiercel 09-02-04, 06:30 PM	Yeah -- I wound up dropping the "unslotted" modifier myself, after I compared to the scabbard of keen edges (which doesn't seem use that modifier). I'm not sure what the Elemental Affinity feat is or where it is from, so I used the Energy Substitution feat from Tome and Blood; it explicitly has the effect of changing an energy type. I see the stacking as a significant issue - an item that has the potential for +4d6 damage for an hour 1/day, is a lot more powerful than one that only lets you temporarily do +1d6 at a time. (The fact that each would take a standard action isn't that much of a limitation, since the boosts last for an hour.) If the abilities stack, they are worth more, not less, than 4 fire/day, and the cost should be higher, not lower. Ah! Okay -- the haversack/quiver like property is definitely cool. I'd add (Leo's) secret chest to the list of prerequisites, since that is the prerequisite for the handy haversack, the efficient quiver (aka quiver of Ehlonna), and bags of holding. As a note, though, I think that any item that has multiple functions has to have a single caster level, which is minimum of 9th for secret chest. (I'm looking at other multifunction wondrous items, such as the chaos diamond, eyes of doom, hand of glory, and they all have a single caster level. On the other hand, like most wondrous items, their prices are a bit ad hoc -- wondrous items often don't seem to hew very closely to the guidelines.) Technically, this will punch up your [i]flame arrow costs by a lot (nearly double!), though as a DM I'd probably ad hoc this. If I were approving this item in my campaign, I'd say that without the extradimensional-storing ability, it would be equivalent in price to a scabbard of keen edges that worked 4 times a day instead of 3. Both items give you an effective +1 weapon bonus on a certain class of weapons. (Arguably, the energy +1 bonuses are better than the keen bonus, but let's set that aside.) A scabbard's powers don't stack, so for the same price, I wouldn't let the bandolier's stack either -- sure, you aren't getting the same use 4 times per day, but on the other hand you are, effectively, getting four different +1 modifiers each once per day. (If a scabbard's user runs into undead, the scabbard is useless for that battle, but if a bandolier's user runs into devils, he can just call up the electricity usage instead of the fire usage.) Using the benchmark item is probably a little more accurate than sticking slavishly to the guidelines (which many wondrous items don't anyway), and avoids the whole CL 9 mess. So, scabbard * 4 / 3 (for four uses per day) + handy haversack * 1.5 = 24 300 gp (without stacking), for: Moderate conjuration and transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, [i]flame arrow, secret chest, Energy Substitution feat; Price 24,300 gp. Sure, you can get four bows (+1 flame, +1 chill, +1 shock, +1 acid) and a quiver to keep them in for a bit over 35 000, but if you later get your hands on a +1 seeking holy bow of speed, the quiver can still be used with it, but not your "golf bag of bows". (Also, frankly, the bandolier is just about as good as the four bows, since you are unlikely to have more than 4 hours / 200 shots of combat in a single day without something else (spells, hp) running out first.)
Harliquinn 09-07-04, 01:18 PM	Looks good. Thanks for the analysis and opinions. I agree, stacking probably would make it significantly more powerful for that hour of the day :) The goal of it was to help overcome DR without the need for 4 separate weapons (If you could enchant arrows with flaming, frost, etc without the need to be +1, it would solve the issue also but 8,000 for 50 arrows is a bit much).