Bane Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bane Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
stuce
11-04-07, 04:31 PM A couple of things I'm not quite clear about...

1) I have a +1 bane (evil outsider) longbow and a +1 bane (chaotic outsider) arrow and I'm shooting at a chaotic evil outsider (Quasit). Is my arrow +3 +2d6 or is it +5 +4d6?

2) I have a +5 longbow and a +1 bane (dragon) arrow. I shoot at the dragon. Is the arrow +3 +2d6 and therefore once combined with the bow becomes +5 +2d6 or does it instead become +7 +2d6, applying the bane bonus to the bow's +5. Can my arrow overcome epic damage reduction?

3) Can I forge a longsword +1 bane (evil outsider) bane (chaotic outsider)?

Thx
dawnbringer
11-04-07, 05:09 PM Bane only gives you +2d6 damage, not +2 +2d6. As for your questions, i don't know.
RavenDrake
11-04-07, 05:14 PM #1.) Technically it should be a +3 arrow with +4d6 damage. The special enhancements from the Bane effect would overlap, not stack(the wording is that "its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus"), but the extra dice of damage should be applied from both effects. There will likely be dissenting opinions on this, but that's the interpretation I've always used.

#2.) Since the bane effect is on the arrow, the net result would be a +5 bow fireing +3 arrows. Since the bow has a better enhancement bonus, it's going to overlap for +5 arrows(again, as is my understanding of how bane works). Now, if you had a +5 Bane bow firing at a dragon, then the resulting +7 arrows would indeed overcome Epic damage reduction(as the only requirement for that is an attack with a weapon of +6 or better enhancement bonus).

#3.) This one is a bit trickier. Normally I don't allow stacking of multiple instances of the same enhancement(no Flameing x3 Longsword for example) however, bane has to be specified for each creature type so it isn't necessarily the same exact enhancement. Generally speaking, I do allow multiple banes of different types to stack on a weapon, but two banes of the same type overlap fully. For Example: A +1 Bane Humanoid(goblinoid) bow fireing +1 Bane Humanoid(Goblinoid) Arrows will be +3 and +2d6 against a goblin. A +1 Bane Outsider(Evil) bow fireing +1 Bane Outsider(Evil), Bane Outsider(Chaoitc) arrows at the aforementioned Quasit will be +3 and +4d6. The two banes of the same type overlap in functionality, but will stack with bane effects of different types. Again, this is a personal houserule and may be contradicted by another source(though there is no mention of limitations of bane effects in the FAQ that I can find).
jaelis
11-04-07, 08:13 PM The Sage says you can't stack bane... your weapon is either bane against a creature or not, so multiple banes would have no additional effect. So if you want an official answer for (1) and (3), that's it. RD is right about (2).
dman11235
11-04-07, 08:35 PM Yeah, well, that's the Sage. I personally (and everyone else I play with) use it like RavenDrake does.
RavenDrake
11-04-07, 09:18 PM The Sage says you can't stack bane... your weapon is either bane against a creature or not, so multiple banes would have no additional effect. So if you want an official answer for (1) and (3), that's it. RD is right about (2).

Ahh... so that's where I remembered that quote from. I didn't see anything muchon Bane in the FAQ and assumed I was thinking of something a poster said once.... forgot about Sage.
jaelis
11-04-07, 11:01 PM Ahh... so that's where I remembered that quote from. I didn't see anything muchon Bane in the FAQ and assumed I was thinking of something a poster said once.... forgot about Sage.

It's from Sage Advice, Dragon 356. But then, the fact that it hasn't made it to the FAQ might suggest that they have backpedaled on it.

(For the record, I play it as you do.)
mvincent
11-05-07, 02:29 PM A couple of things I'm not quite clear about...

1) I have a +1 bane (evil outsider) longbow and a +1 bane (chaotic outsider) arrow and I'm shooting at a chaotic evil outsider (Quasit). Is my arrow +3 +2d6 or is it +5 +4d6?It is +3 +4d6 (links to long threads discussing this available on request).

2) I have a +5 longbow and a +1 bane (dragon) arrow. I shoot at the dragon. Is the arrow +3 +2d6 and therefore once combined with the bow becomes +5 +2d6 or does it instead become +7 +2d6,It's open to interpretation, but I view it as +7.

applying the bane bonus to the bow's +5. Can my arrow overcome epic damage reduction?This is also open to interpretation, but some long debates on this conclude in favor of it being able to overcome Epic DR.

3) Can I forge a longsword +1 bane (evil outsider) bane (chaotic outsider)?That is also open to some interpretation. As discussed in many other long threads: multiple, identical enhancements (example: flaming x4, etc.) generally weren't intended to be allowed by the writers.

However, bane (evil outsider) and bane (chaotic outsider) seem dissimilar enough that having both on the same weapon seems reasonable. I would allow it.
goawayugh
11-05-07, 02:36 PM It's open to interpretation, but I view it as +7.

I'm still on the fence regarding the extra 2d6 stacking, but this is an absolute no. The +1 arrow is the one with the bane on it, not the +5 bow. The bane quality would make the arrow a +3, not increase the bow. And as we know, a +3 arrow fired from a +5 bow, is only +5.
mvincent
11-05-07, 02:45 PM I'm still on the fence regarding the extra 2d6 stacking, but this is an absolute no. The +1 arrow is the one with the bane on it, not the +5 bow. The bane quality would make the arrow a +3, not increase the bow. And as we know, a +3 arrow fired from a +5 bow, is only +5.When fired from a +5 bow, an arrow actually becomes a +5 arrow. In this case, the arrow could be viewed as effectively a +5 arrow with the bane ability.

But as I said: it's subject to interpretation. Your contention that it is not subject to some interpretation may be harder to prove.
goawayugh
11-05-07, 02:51 PM When fired from a +5 bow, an arrow actually becomes a +5 arrow. In this case, the arrow could be viewed as effectively a +5 arrow with the bane ability.

But as I said: it's subject to interpretation. Your contention that it is not subject to some interpretation may be harder to prove.I'd quote the SRD, but I think his server might be down right now. Anyway, bane adds +2 to the normal enhancement bonus of the item. This arrow's normal enhancement bonus is +1. The +5 from the bow is not its normal enhancement bonus.
mvincent
11-05-07, 03:06 PM I'd quote the SRD, but I think his server might be down right now.Yeah. I have a local copy of d20srd.org though, so:
"Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus."

This arrow's normal enhancement bonus is +1. The +5 from the bow is not its normal enhancement bonus.Again, that is a reasonable interpretation, but "normal" is still subjective. I view an arrow fired from a +5 bow as normally being a considered +5 arrow.

Besides, the writers intent for using the term "normal" here seems faily clear to me (i.e. not actually intended to address what we are discussing).
goawayugh
11-05-07, 03:14 PM Yeah. I have a local copy of d20srd.org though, so:
"Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus."Yeah, I keep wanting to get that. Problem is that whenever I have another $15 available to spend on D&D stuff, I find myself getting a book instead (Amazon, ebay, ...).

Again, that is a reasonable interpretation, but "normal" is still subjective. I view an arrow fired from a +5 bow as normally being a considered +5 arrow.

Besides, the writers intent for using the term "normal" here seems faily clear to me (i.e. not actually intended to address what we are discussing).Hmmm, interesting thought. I will look right now too, but can you see if you can find where it talks about firing magic arrows from magic bows?
goawayugh
11-05-07, 03:18 PM Apparently I failed my Search check the first time. Here it is:Ranged Weapons and Ammunition

The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have). It doesn't say that it actually changes the ammo's enhancement bonus, just that they don't stack. I'm still sticking with my first theory.
jaelis
11-05-07, 03:20 PM I view an arrow fired from a +5 bow as normally being a considered +5 arrow.

What's the basis for thinking of it that way? The discussion

The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

sounds to me like the arrow and the bow retain their own enhancement bonuses, they just don't stack. (Like goawayugh said more quickly.)
mvincent
11-05-07, 03:28 PM It doesn't say that it actually changes the ammo's enhancement bonusFair enough... that's probably more of an inferred thing (i.e. since it does make the arrow magical in regard to penetrating DR).

Let's try a different example then: a +5 arrow fired from a +1 dragon bane bow should be +7 vs. dragons, since the Bane enhancement does actually say:
"Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition."
(thus making it a +5 dragon bane arrow; no inference needed)
jaelis
11-05-07, 03:49 PM Let's try a different example then: a +5 arrow fired from a +1 dragon bane bow should be +7 vs. dragons, since the Bane enhancement does actually say:
"Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition."
(thus making it a +5 dragon bane arrow; no inference needed)

I'll buy that.

(Anyone else noticing some weird board behavior? Besides not updating very well, it wouldn't let me quote the above with the "quote" button.)
Cifer
11-06-07, 01:19 PM I'd go for full stacking of effects. IMO, the effects of the arrow and the bow are put together into a pool where you then take out everything that gets overlapped before applying any effect to your current situation.
mvincent
11-06-07, 01:33 PM I'll buy that.Do you believe (like I do) that magic bows confer their bonus onto their arrows? If not, does that mean that arrows fired from a +6 bow would not penetrate DR/epic?

(Anyone else noticing some weird board behavior? Besides not updating very well, it wouldn't let me quote the above with the "quote" button.)Yeah, that happens to me alot if I answer right away.
jaelis
11-06-07, 02:43 PM Do you believe (like I do) that magic bows confer their bonus onto their arrows?

No, I don't read it that way. It looks to me like the enhancement bonus of the arrow and the enhancement bonus of the bow are separately added to the attack roll, but they overlap rather than stack. So I'd say a +1 arrow fired from a +6 bow is still a +1 arrow, but you add +6 to your attacks and damage.

If not, does that mean that arrows fired from a +6 bow would not penetrate DR/epic?

I'd say this works just like shooting a nonmagical arrow from a +1 bow does in regard to DR/magic. And the rule there is clear that you do penetrate the DR.
mvincent
11-06-07, 03:00 PM I'd say this works just like shooting a nonmagical arrow from a +1 bow does in regard to DR/magic.Agreed. However, the rules do not actually stipulate this (just like they do not directly state that the bow bestows it's enhancement bonus on the arrow). I'm almost positive that both were within the writer's intent, but I don't see the logic in inferring one but not the other. They seem directly related. In fact, inferring epic penetration without enhancement bestowment seems like a greater leap than just inferring enhancement bestowment.

Related notes:
1) In 3.0, bows an arrows stacked, so enhancement bestowment didn't need to be stipulated.
2) In 3.5, DR/+X was removed, so enhancement bestowment didn't need to be stipulated (but bestowment of everything else was).
3) In several sources (like the RotG), enhancement bestowment was alluded to (just not actually directly stated).
4) Without bestowment you have inconsistencies like:
.a) +5 bow w/ bane arrow having a lower bonus that bane bow w/ +5 arrow
.b) The above Epic DR dilemma
jaelis
11-06-07, 03:53 PM In fact, inferring epic penetration without enhancement bestowment seems like a greater leap than just inferring enhancement bestowment.

What makes you say that? I agree it's not spelled out, but as I read the regular DR/magic rule, you get DR penetration without actual enhancement bestowment. (It says the arrow is treated as a magic weapon, it doesn't say that the bow betows it's enhancment bonus on the arrow.) I would have said I was trying to treat the DR/epic problem in exactly the same way, by analogy.

4) Without bestowment you have inconsistencies like:
.a) +5 bow w/ bane arrow having a lower bonus that bane bow w/ +5 arrow
.b) The above Epic DR dilemma
I guess (a) doesn't bother me. It is quite reasonable and efficient to carry around a bunch of bane arrows for different creature types. I don't think that strategy needs the extra benefit of penetrating DR/epic as soon as you have a +4 bow.

But getting a bane bow is a more serious commitment... you're not going to have a bane bow for more than one or two creature types. So it preserves the sense of DR/epic as something special.

As for (b), like I said I don't see it as such a dilemma. Maybe I'm still missing your point.
Toki_Wartooth
11-06-07, 04:44 PM as I read the regular DR/magic rule, you get DR penetration without actual enhancement bestowment.Weird. As I interpreted it, it get's DR penetration because of enhancement bestowment.

For everyone else: how did *you* interpret it?

I would have said I was trying to treat the DR/epic problem in exactly the same way, by analogy.So a +6 bow doesn't bestow it's bonus on it's arrows? Just it's accuracy, damage, and ability to penetrate DR/Epic (plus alignment, special abilities, etc.)? That seems unintuitive. Especially since the arrow loses the extra accuracy and damage if it enters an anti-magic field.

Bows do a heck of a lot of bestowin' in D&D, and I don't see why this would be different.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stuce 11-04-07, 04:31 PM	A couple of things I'm not quite clear about... 1) I have a +1 bane (evil outsider) longbow and a +1 bane (chaotic outsider) arrow and I'm shooting at a chaotic evil outsider (Quasit). Is my arrow +3 +2d6 or is it +5 +4d6? 2) I have a +5 longbow and a +1 bane (dragon) arrow. I shoot at the dragon. Is the arrow +3 +2d6 and therefore once combined with the bow becomes +5 +2d6 or does it instead become +7 +2d6, applying the bane bonus to the bow's +5. Can my arrow overcome epic damage reduction? 3) Can I forge a longsword +1 bane (evil outsider) bane (chaotic outsider)? Thx
dawnbringer 11-04-07, 05:09 PM	Bane only gives you +2d6 damage, not +2 +2d6. As for your questions, i don't know.
RavenDrake 11-04-07, 05:14 PM	#1.) Technically it should be a +3 arrow with +4d6 damage. The special enhancements from the Bane effect would overlap, not stack(the wording is that "its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus"), but the extra dice of damage should be applied from both effects. There will likely be dissenting opinions on this, but that's the interpretation I've always used. #2.) Since the bane effect is on the arrow, the net result would be a +5 bow fireing +3 arrows. Since the bow has a better enhancement bonus, it's going to overlap for +5 arrows(again, as is my understanding of how bane works). Now, if you had a +5 Bane bow firing at a dragon, then the resulting +7 arrows would indeed overcome Epic damage reduction(as the only requirement for that is an attack with a weapon of +6 or better enhancement bonus). #3.) This one is a bit trickier. Normally I don't allow stacking of multiple instances of the same enhancement(no Flameing x3 Longsword for example) however, bane has to be specified for each creature type so it isn't necessarily the same exact enhancement. Generally speaking, I do allow multiple banes of different types to stack on a weapon, but two banes of the same type overlap fully. For Example: A +1 Bane Humanoid(goblinoid) bow fireing +1 Bane Humanoid(Goblinoid) Arrows will be +3 and +2d6 against a goblin. A +1 Bane Outsider(Evil) bow fireing +1 Bane Outsider(Evil), Bane Outsider(Chaoitc) arrows at the aforementioned Quasit will be +3 and +4d6. The two banes of the same type overlap in functionality, but will stack with bane effects of different types. Again, this is a personal houserule and may be contradicted by another source(though there is no mention of limitations of bane effects in the FAQ that I can find).
jaelis 11-04-07, 08:13 PM	The Sage says you can't stack bane... your weapon is either bane against a creature or not, so multiple banes would have no additional effect. So if you want an official answer for (1) and (3), that's it. RD is right about (2).
dman11235 11-04-07, 08:35 PM	Yeah, well, that's the Sage. I personally (and everyone else I play with) use it like RavenDrake does.
RavenDrake 11-04-07, 09:18 PM	The Sage says you can't stack bane... your weapon is either bane against a creature or not, so multiple banes would have no additional effect. So if you want an official answer for (1) and (3), that's it. RD is right about (2). Ahh... so that's where I remembered that quote from. I didn't see anything muchon Bane in the FAQ and assumed I was thinking of something a poster said once.... forgot about Sage.
jaelis 11-04-07, 11:01 PM	Ahh... so that's where I remembered that quote from. I didn't see anything muchon Bane in the FAQ and assumed I was thinking of something a poster said once.... forgot about Sage. It's from Sage Advice, Dragon 356. But then, the fact that it hasn't made it to the FAQ might suggest that they have backpedaled on it. (For the record, I play it as you do.)
mvincent 11-05-07, 02:29 PM	A couple of things I'm not quite clear about... 1) I have a +1 bane (evil outsider) longbow and a +1 bane (chaotic outsider) arrow and I'm shooting at a chaotic evil outsider (Quasit). Is my arrow +3 +2d6 or is it +5 +4d6?It is +3 +4d6 (links to long threads discussing this available on request). 2) I have a +5 longbow and a +1 bane (dragon) arrow. I shoot at the dragon. Is the arrow +3 +2d6 and therefore once combined with the bow becomes +5 +2d6 or does it instead become +7 +2d6,It's open to interpretation, but I view it as +7. applying the bane bonus to the bow's +5. Can my arrow overcome epic damage reduction?This is also open to interpretation, but some long debates on this conclude in favor of it being able to overcome Epic DR. 3) Can I forge a longsword +1 bane (evil outsider) bane (chaotic outsider)?That is also open to some interpretation. As discussed in many other long threads: multiple, identical enhancements (example: flaming x4, etc.) generally weren't intended to be allowed by the writers. However, bane (evil outsider) and bane (chaotic outsider) seem dissimilar enough that having both on the same weapon seems reasonable. I would allow it.
goawayugh 11-05-07, 02:36 PM	It's open to interpretation, but I view it as +7. I'm still on the fence regarding the extra 2d6 stacking, but this is an absolute no. The +1 arrow is the one with the bane on it, not the +5 bow. The bane quality would make the arrow a +3, not increase the bow. And as we know, a +3 arrow fired from a +5 bow, is only +5.
mvincent 11-05-07, 02:45 PM	I'm still on the fence regarding the extra 2d6 stacking, but this is an absolute no. The +1 arrow is the one with the bane on it, not the +5 bow. The bane quality would make the arrow a +3, not increase the bow. And as we know, a +3 arrow fired from a +5 bow, is only +5.When fired from a +5 bow, an arrow actually becomes a +5 arrow. In this case, the arrow could be viewed as effectively a +5 arrow with the bane ability. But as I said: it's subject to interpretation. Your contention that it is not subject to some interpretation may be harder to prove.
goawayugh 11-05-07, 02:51 PM	When fired from a +5 bow, an arrow actually becomes a +5 arrow. In this case, the arrow could be viewed as effectively a +5 arrow with the bane ability. But as I said: it's subject to interpretation. Your contention that it is not subject to some interpretation may be harder to prove.I'd quote the SRD, but I think his server might be down right now. Anyway, bane adds +2 to the normal enhancement bonus of the item. This arrow's normal enhancement bonus is +1. The +5 from the bow is not its normal enhancement bonus.
mvincent 11-05-07, 03:06 PM	I'd quote the SRD, but I think his server might be down right now.Yeah. I have a local copy of d20srd.org though, so: "Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus." This arrow's normal enhancement bonus is +1. The +5 from the bow is not its normal enhancement bonus.Again, that is a reasonable interpretation, but "normal" is still subjective. I view an arrow fired from a +5 bow as normally being a considered +5 arrow. Besides, the writers intent for using the term "normal" here seems faily clear to me (i.e. not actually intended to address what we are discussing).
goawayugh 11-05-07, 03:14 PM	Yeah. I have a local copy of d20srd.org though, so: "Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus."Yeah, I keep wanting to get that. Problem is that whenever I have another $15 available to spend on D&D stuff, I find myself getting a book instead (Amazon, ebay, ...). Again, that is a reasonable interpretation, but "normal" is still subjective. I view an arrow fired from a +5 bow as normally being a considered +5 arrow. Besides, the writers intent for using the term "normal" here seems faily clear to me (i.e. not actually intended to address what we are discussing).Hmmm, interesting thought. I will look right now too, but can you see if you can find where it talks about firing magic arrows from magic bows?
goawayugh 11-05-07, 03:18 PM	Apparently I failed my Search check the first time. Here it is:Ranged Weapons and Ammunition The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have). It doesn't say that it actually changes the ammo's enhancement bonus, just that they don't stack. I'm still sticking with my first theory.
jaelis 11-05-07, 03:20 PM	I view an arrow fired from a +5 bow as normally being a considered +5 arrow. What's the basis for thinking of it that way? The discussion The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. sounds to me like the arrow and the bow retain their own enhancement bonuses, they just don't stack. (Like goawayugh said more quickly.)
mvincent 11-05-07, 03:28 PM	It doesn't say that it actually changes the ammo's enhancement bonusFair enough... that's probably more of an inferred thing (i.e. since it does make the arrow magical in regard to penetrating DR). Let's try a different example then: a +5 arrow fired from a +1 dragon bane bow should be +7 vs. dragons, since the Bane enhancement does actually say: "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition." (thus making it a +5 dragon bane arrow; no inference needed)
jaelis 11-05-07, 03:49 PM	Let's try a different example then: a +5 arrow fired from a +1 dragon bane bow should be +7 vs. dragons, since the Bane enhancement does actually say: "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition." (thus making it a +5 dragon bane arrow; no inference needed) I'll buy that. (Anyone else noticing some weird board behavior? Besides not updating very well, it wouldn't let me quote the above with the "quote" button.)
Cifer 11-06-07, 01:19 PM	I'd go for full stacking of effects. IMO, the effects of the arrow and the bow are put together into a pool where you then take out everything that gets overlapped before applying any effect to your current situation.
mvincent 11-06-07, 01:33 PM	I'll buy that.Do you believe (like I do) that magic bows confer their bonus onto their arrows? If not, does that mean that arrows fired from a +6 bow would not penetrate DR/epic? (Anyone else noticing some weird board behavior? Besides not updating very well, it wouldn't let me quote the above with the "quote" button.)Yeah, that happens to me alot if I answer right away.
jaelis 11-06-07, 02:43 PM	Do you believe (like I do) that magic bows confer their bonus onto their arrows? No, I don't read it that way. It looks to me like the enhancement bonus of the arrow and the enhancement bonus of the bow are separately added to the attack roll, but they overlap rather than stack. So I'd say a +1 arrow fired from a +6 bow is still a +1 arrow, but you add +6 to your attacks and damage. If not, does that mean that arrows fired from a +6 bow would not penetrate DR/epic? I'd say this works just like shooting a nonmagical arrow from a +1 bow does in regard to DR/magic. And the rule there is clear that you do penetrate the DR.
mvincent 11-06-07, 03:00 PM	I'd say this works just like shooting a nonmagical arrow from a +1 bow does in regard to DR/magic.Agreed. However, the rules do not actually stipulate this (just like they do not directly state that the bow bestows it's enhancement bonus on the arrow). I'm almost positive that both were within the writer's intent, but I don't see the logic in inferring one but not the other. They seem directly related. In fact, inferring epic penetration without enhancement bestowment seems like a greater leap than just inferring enhancement bestowment. Related notes: 1) In 3.0, bows an arrows stacked, so enhancement bestowment didn't need to be stipulated. 2) In 3.5, DR/+X was removed, so enhancement bestowment didn't need to be stipulated (but bestowment of everything else was). 3) In several sources (like the RotG), enhancement bestowment was alluded to (just not actually directly stated). 4) Without bestowment you have inconsistencies like: .a) +5 bow w/ bane arrow having a lower bonus that bane bow w/ +5 arrow .b) The above Epic DR dilemma
jaelis 11-06-07, 03:53 PM	In fact, inferring epic penetration without enhancement bestowment seems like a greater leap than just inferring enhancement bestowment. What makes you say that? I agree it's not spelled out, but as I read the regular DR/magic rule, you get DR penetration without actual enhancement bestowment. (It says the arrow is treated as a magic weapon, it doesn't say that the bow betows it's enhancment bonus on the arrow.) I would have said I was trying to treat the DR/epic problem in exactly the same way, by analogy. 4) Without bestowment you have inconsistencies like: .a) +5 bow w/ bane arrow having a lower bonus that bane bow w/ +5 arrow .b) The above Epic DR dilemma I guess (a) doesn't bother me. It is quite reasonable and efficient to carry around a bunch of bane arrows for different creature types. I don't think that strategy needs the extra benefit of penetrating DR/epic as soon as you have a +4 bow. But getting a bane bow is a more serious commitment... you're not going to have a bane bow for more than one or two creature types. So it preserves the sense of DR/epic as something special. As for (b), like I said I don't see it as such a dilemma. Maybe I'm still missing your point.
Toki_Wartooth 11-06-07, 04:44 PM	as I read the regular DR/magic rule, you get DR penetration without actual enhancement bestowment.Weird. As I interpreted it, it get's DR penetration because of enhancement bestowment. For everyone else: how did you interpret it? I would have said I was trying to treat the DR/epic problem in exactly the same way, by analogy.So a +6 bow doesn't bestow it's bonus on it's arrows? Just it's accuracy, damage, and ability to penetrate DR/Epic (plus alignment, special abilities, etc.)? That seems unintuitive. Especially since the arrow loses the extra accuracy and damage if it enters an anti-magic field. Bows do a heck of a lot of bestowin' in D&D, and I don't see why this would be different.