Banishment vs equipment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Banishment vs equipment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Goth
05-24-07, 10:31 AM Hey, all. A quick and simple question. If an outsider such as a demon or an elemental or the like is either banished, or is actually killed on the material plane, and he has an item, does that item simply disappear, or does it get banished with him, or does it stay behind and drop to the ground?
jaelis
05-24-07, 10:53 AM I'd say any items the creature is holding are banished along with the creature. But I don't think there's any reason to think that would happen if you simply kill the creature... I'm not sure what you mean there.
Zaistars69
05-24-07, 10:58 AM I'd say any items the creature is holding are banished along with the creature. But I don't think there's any reason to think that would happen if you simply kill the creature... I'm not sure what you mean there.

he's talking about how when demons are killed on the material plane they are banished back home.
I wouldn't make the items go back with it unless it came to the material (or wherever) with it.
jaelis
05-24-07, 11:01 AM I remember rules like that from older editions of the game, but is it still the case? Maybe I'm just having a brain fart, but I don't see anything in the srd about outsiders not truly dying when killed on the material plane.
Beware of Kobold
05-24-07, 11:08 AM outsiders are killed when they are killed on the material plane, unless they were summoned to the material plane with a summon monster type spell. In that case they are sent back to the plane they came from.
Zaistars69
05-24-07, 11:09 AM I remember rules like that from older editions of the game, but is it still the case? Maybe I'm just having a brain fart, but I don't see anything in the srd about outsiders not truly dying when killed on the material plane.

that kind of thing is more fluff than anything else. You would have to check the findish codex or possibly the actual MM. neither of which I have with me right now but there ya go. SRD is only moderately good for rules.
RavenDrake
05-24-07, 11:53 AM I could have sworn there was a passage that states that Summoned (as with Summoning subschool conjurations and not Calling subschool) creatures cannot take objects back to thier home plane, and that any object they would have aquired when summomned will remain when they return regardless of whether they were banished, reduced to 0 HP, dispelled, etc. But I cannot find it...
Zaistars69
05-24-07, 12:11 PM I could have sworn there was a passage that states that Summoned (as with Summoning subschool conjurations and not Calling subschool) creatures cannot take objects back to thier home plane, and that any object they would have aquired when summomned will remain when they return regardless of whether they were banished, reduced to 0 HP, dispelled, etc. But I cannot find it...

you're right, summoned creatures don't take items back to whence they came. But that's not what the OP asked. If he was thinking summoned baddies he didn't specify.
RavenDrake
05-24-07, 01:01 PM Sorry... I meant that to be a contrast to creatures who actually EXIST on the material plane(elementals and outsiders who are Called to this plane and exist in the flesh).

If such a creature is banished, then it would likely take anything it's holding with it(though probalby not other creatures, if it were grappling).

If such a creasture were killed, then it does NOT disappear. It's body(or a reasonable facimile thereof) will remain behind, as will anything it was holding(including anything that it brought with it when it was Called).
Goth
05-25-07, 12:38 AM Ah, sorry for not being more specific. But it turned out better that I didn't, because you've raised some other questions that would be nice to know the answers to.

Let me set up two scenarios here.

First: The outsider (let's call it a demon) is summoned by a wizard, but it is placed under a geas to complete a task that could take it years. It gathers items to help it, but then is finally struck down before it completes the task. Would the demon be banished for 100 years, or would it actually be killed and will not be returning to the abyss or the material plane ever again? Are there other rules for that now? Would the items which it did not bring with it but it has now go with it, or be left behind? Would the demon have to be brought down to -10 hp, or does the standard 0 hp for summoned creatures defeat it?

Second: The demon comes through an open gate, and sets to a task either on its own or directed. It gathers items to help it, but then is finally struck down by some meddling adventurer. Same questions as above. Would the demon be banished for 100 years, or would it actually be killed and will not be returning to the abyss or the material plane ever again? Are there other rules for that now? Would the items which it did not bring with it but it has now go with it, or be left behind? Would the demon have to be brought down to -10 hp, or does the standard 0 hp for summoned creatures defeat it?

Thanks for the help on this, by the way.
RavenDrake
05-25-07, 01:30 AM A Summoned (not Called or otherwise permenantly conjured creature) creature exists only a short time on the material plane, usually measured in rounds. They exist within the range of thier spell only and a successful dispell can return them to thier home plane. A summoned creture who leaves because the spell is canceled, because they're banished, or because the caster wills them to return simply vanishes(leaving behind anything they may be holding or wearing that they aquired on the material plane). Summoned creatures cannot actually be killed. As soon as they are reduced to 0 or less hitpoints they immediately vanish, returning to their home plane where it takes them 1 full day to reform. Summoned creatures are not actually here "in person", rather what you summon is a magical body that takes the form of and possess most of the abilities of an extraplaner creature. They function exactly as the creature would, save for the limitations of not being able to spend XP or use SLA's that would use XP, or to be able to summon themselves. However, they are merely magial duplicates of the real creature, bound to the caster's will.

A Creature who has actually physically left thier home plane to come here (via Gate, or other Calling subschool spell or an effect which duplicates the above), are actually here in the flesh. That means they have no limitation on spending XP or summoning, and they do not vanish when they reach 0 HP. They would have to be reduced to -10 hp as with any other creature, at which point they are truely dead.

The "banished for 100 years" bit you keep using I'm not familier with(I assume it's a bit of fluff either from a campain you were playing or left over from 2nd edition) but I can't remember seeing reference to it in anything in 3rd edition.
Naderion
05-25-07, 05:05 AM If a creature brings something with it, when it is summoned, these things vanish together with it, when the spell ends/is ended.
RavenDrake
05-25-07, 12:24 PM If a creature brings something with it, when it is summoned, these things vanish together with it, when the spell ends/is ended.

Yes. Though, generally, a summoned creature does not bring anything with it.
drade
05-25-07, 01:39 PM The 100 year bansihment is most likely referring to Forgotten Realms stories. In were if you kill a Deamon on the material plane it can't return for 100 years. However it is a very common house rule used by players with TSR book reading background.
Nom
05-28-07, 02:21 AM They exist within the range of thier spell onlyI don't believe this one part is true. The range applies at time of summoning, and they can thereafter move as normal except they can't use teleportation abilities.

I can't find the explicit ruling, but note that summon monster is not an emanation. It doesn't cease if you or the target moves away any more than (say) silence or hold person does. OK, in the case of hold person the target isn't moving much, but you get the idea.
strenoth
05-28-07, 04:09 AM If an outsider who is on the material plane through an otherwise permanent means (plane shift, gate, etc) is Banished as per the spell, then anything it's carrying goes with it, no matter what the origins of the item.

If it is killed, everything remains on the material plane, inlcuding the body of the now very dead outsider.

If it is summoned as per the Summon Monster spell, any items or such it brings with it, go back with in, no matter how it goes back ('death', end of spell duration, banishment, etc), and does NOT take anything with it that it picked up on the prime.
Nom
05-28-07, 07:37 AM As an interesting aside, any spell or other ongoing effects created by a summoned monster also go "poof" when the monster does.
magmer2
05-28-07, 09:46 AM The "banished for 100 years" bit you keep using I'm not familier with(I assume it's a bit of fluff either from a campain you were playing or left over from 2nd edition) but I can't remember seeing reference to it in anything in 3rd edition.
It might be the from one of the Codexi. It states something to the effect that if a Demon/devil is killed outside of its home plane then it is not really slain.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Goth 05-24-07, 10:31 AM	Hey, all. A quick and simple question. If an outsider such as a demon or an elemental or the like is either banished, or is actually killed on the material plane, and he has an item, does that item simply disappear, or does it get banished with him, or does it stay behind and drop to the ground?
jaelis 05-24-07, 10:53 AM	I'd say any items the creature is holding are banished along with the creature. But I don't think there's any reason to think that would happen if you simply kill the creature... I'm not sure what you mean there.
Zaistars69 05-24-07, 10:58 AM	I'd say any items the creature is holding are banished along with the creature. But I don't think there's any reason to think that would happen if you simply kill the creature... I'm not sure what you mean there. he's talking about how when demons are killed on the material plane they are banished back home. I wouldn't make the items go back with it unless it came to the material (or wherever) with it.
jaelis 05-24-07, 11:01 AM	I remember rules like that from older editions of the game, but is it still the case? Maybe I'm just having a brain fart, but I don't see anything in the srd about outsiders not truly dying when killed on the material plane.
Beware of Kobold 05-24-07, 11:08 AM	outsiders are killed when they are killed on the material plane, unless they were summoned to the material plane with a summon monster type spell. In that case they are sent back to the plane they came from.
Zaistars69 05-24-07, 11:09 AM	I remember rules like that from older editions of the game, but is it still the case? Maybe I'm just having a brain fart, but I don't see anything in the srd about outsiders not truly dying when killed on the material plane. that kind of thing is more fluff than anything else. You would have to check the findish codex or possibly the actual MM. neither of which I have with me right now but there ya go. SRD is only moderately good for rules.
RavenDrake 05-24-07, 11:53 AM	I could have sworn there was a passage that states that Summoned (as with Summoning subschool conjurations and not Calling subschool) creatures cannot take objects back to thier home plane, and that any object they would have aquired when summomned will remain when they return regardless of whether they were banished, reduced to 0 HP, dispelled, etc. But I cannot find it...
Zaistars69 05-24-07, 12:11 PM	I could have sworn there was a passage that states that Summoned (as with Summoning subschool conjurations and not Calling subschool) creatures cannot take objects back to thier home plane, and that any object they would have aquired when summomned will remain when they return regardless of whether they were banished, reduced to 0 HP, dispelled, etc. But I cannot find it... you're right, summoned creatures don't take items back to whence they came. But that's not what the OP asked. If he was thinking summoned baddies he didn't specify.
RavenDrake 05-24-07, 01:01 PM	Sorry... I meant that to be a contrast to creatures who actually EXIST on the material plane(elementals and outsiders who are Called to this plane and exist in the flesh). If such a creature is banished, then it would likely take anything it's holding with it(though probalby not other creatures, if it were grappling). If such a creasture were killed, then it does NOT disappear. It's body(or a reasonable facimile thereof) will remain behind, as will anything it was holding(including anything that it brought with it when it was Called).
Goth 05-25-07, 12:38 AM	Ah, sorry for not being more specific. But it turned out better that I didn't, because you've raised some other questions that would be nice to know the answers to. Let me set up two scenarios here. First: The outsider (let's call it a demon) is summoned by a wizard, but it is placed under a geas to complete a task that could take it years. It gathers items to help it, but then is finally struck down before it completes the task. Would the demon be banished for 100 years, or would it actually be killed and will not be returning to the abyss or the material plane ever again? Are there other rules for that now? Would the items which it did not bring with it but it has now go with it, or be left behind? Would the demon have to be brought down to -10 hp, or does the standard 0 hp for summoned creatures defeat it? Second: The demon comes through an open gate, and sets to a task either on its own or directed. It gathers items to help it, but then is finally struck down by some meddling adventurer. Same questions as above. Would the demon be banished for 100 years, or would it actually be killed and will not be returning to the abyss or the material plane ever again? Are there other rules for that now? Would the items which it did not bring with it but it has now go with it, or be left behind? Would the demon have to be brought down to -10 hp, or does the standard 0 hp for summoned creatures defeat it? Thanks for the help on this, by the way.
RavenDrake 05-25-07, 01:30 AM	A Summoned (not Called or otherwise permenantly conjured creature) creature exists only a short time on the material plane, usually measured in rounds. They exist within the range of thier spell only and a successful dispell can return them to thier home plane. A summoned creture who leaves because the spell is canceled, because they're banished, or because the caster wills them to return simply vanishes(leaving behind anything they may be holding or wearing that they aquired on the material plane). Summoned creatures cannot actually be killed. As soon as they are reduced to 0 or less hitpoints they immediately vanish, returning to their home plane where it takes them 1 full day to reform. Summoned creatures are not actually here "in person", rather what you summon is a magical body that takes the form of and possess most of the abilities of an extraplaner creature. They function exactly as the creature would, save for the limitations of not being able to spend XP or use SLA's that would use XP, or to be able to summon themselves. However, they are merely magial duplicates of the real creature, bound to the caster's will. A Creature who has actually physically left thier home plane to come here (via Gate, or other Calling subschool spell or an effect which duplicates the above), are actually here in the flesh. That means they have no limitation on spending XP or summoning, and they do not vanish when they reach 0 HP. They would have to be reduced to -10 hp as with any other creature, at which point they are truely dead. The "banished for 100 years" bit you keep using I'm not familier with(I assume it's a bit of fluff either from a campain you were playing or left over from 2nd edition) but I can't remember seeing reference to it in anything in 3rd edition.
Naderion 05-25-07, 05:05 AM	If a creature brings something with it, when it is summoned, these things vanish together with it, when the spell ends/is ended.
RavenDrake 05-25-07, 12:24 PM	If a creature brings something with it, when it is summoned, these things vanish together with it, when the spell ends/is ended. Yes. Though, generally, a summoned creature does not bring anything with it.
drade 05-25-07, 01:39 PM	The 100 year bansihment is most likely referring to Forgotten Realms stories. In were if you kill a Deamon on the material plane it can't return for 100 years. However it is a very common house rule used by players with TSR book reading background.
Nom 05-28-07, 02:21 AM	They exist within the range of thier spell onlyI don't believe this one part is true. The range applies at time of summoning, and they can thereafter move as normal except they can't use teleportation abilities. I can't find the explicit ruling, but note that summon monster is not an emanation. It doesn't cease if you or the target moves away any more than (say) silence or hold person does. OK, in the case of hold person the target isn't moving much, but you get the idea.
strenoth 05-28-07, 04:09 AM	If an outsider who is on the material plane through an otherwise permanent means (plane shift, gate, etc) is Banished as per the spell, then anything it's carrying goes with it, no matter what the origins of the item. If it is killed, everything remains on the material plane, inlcuding the body of the now very dead outsider. If it is summoned as per the Summon Monster spell, any items or such it brings with it, go back with in, no matter how it goes back ('death', end of spell duration, banishment, etc), and does NOT take anything with it that it picked up on the prime.
Nom 05-28-07, 07:37 AM	As an interesting aside, any spell or other ongoing effects created by a summoned monster also go "poof" when the monster does.
magmer2 05-28-07, 09:46 AM	The "banished for 100 years" bit you keep using I'm not familier with(I assume it's a bit of fluff either from a campain you were playing or left over from 2nd edition) but I can't remember seeing reference to it in anything in 3rd edition. It might be the from one of the Codexi. It states something to the effect that if a Demon/devil is killed outside of its home plane then it is not really slain.