Barbarian 16/Rogue 5 + Imp. 2 Wpn Fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian 16/Rogue 5 + Imp. 2 Wpn Fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Icecaster
04-30-06, 01:04 PM Have a couple questions relating to a new character being introduced to a higher level game, and how to figure out the number/strength of his attacks. We're playing with 3.5 rules.

He's a level 16 Barbarian, level 5 Rogue, with Strength 20, Dexterity 18, Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

Starting off, the base attack bonus. A level 16 Barbarian has a Base Attack of +16, which would give a Full Attack of +16/+11/+6/+1. A level 5 Rogue has a Base Attack of +3, which would normally only give him one attack. Page 59 of the PHB, under Base Attack Bonus for Multiclass characters, says that these bonuses stack, that a level 6 Rogue/level 4 Wizard would have a +6 Base Attack (+4 for the Rogue, +2 for the Wizard.) Telling you to reference the table on page 22 for Base Attack and Base Saves, the section goes on to say that a +6 Base Attack gives two attacks to this character, +6/+1, even though neither the +4 from the rogue or the +2 from the wizard levels normally allow a second attack.

Following this reasoning, a level 16 Barbarian (+16 Base Attack)/level 5 Rogue (+3 Base Attack) would have a Base Attack of +19, which consulting the Base Attack and Base Saves chart gives a Full Attack of +19/+14/+9/+4.

There has been some debate on this, that maybe the +16/+11/+6/+1 from Barbarian stack with the +3 from the Rogue like +19/+11/+6/+1, because the Rogues B.A. only allows him one attack, and should only boost the first attack of the Barbarian. Maybe it was done like this in an earlier version of the game, but it seems like this may make things more difficult to keep track of.

We'll use the +19/+14/+9/+4 combined B.A. for the rest of this, it seems most in line with the Players Handbook; if it's actually the other way around, or something completely different, we'd appreciate the words of advice.

The Two-Weapon Fighting feat now comes into the picture. The Barbarian is using two light weapons, a light mace and a dagger. After consulting the Two-Weapon Fighting chart on page 160 of the PHB, he should get his normal line of attacks with his main hand at the bonuses +17/+12/+7/+2 (-2 to each), plus one attack with his off hand at +17 (his Base Attack, -2). This seems to be generally agreed upon.

Where we run into confusion is with the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and everybody seems to have a different take on this (the chart on Two Weapon Fighting doesn't extend to include Improved or Greater Two Weapon Fighting.) The feat descibes it as "In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a -5 penalty. (See Table 8-10, page 160)." We aren't completely sure how to handle this extra attack and the -5 penalty.

Does this 2nd attack duplicate the bonus for the second attack in the main hand, like this? :
(Main Hand) +17/+12/+7/+2
(Off Hand) +17/+12

Is the second off-hand attack at -5 exempt from the -2 found everywhere else, giving this series of bonuses instead:
(Main Hand) +17/+12/+7/+2
(Off Hand) +17/+14
(This seems a bit more unlikely the more I read, the option above seems more balanced and easy to remember.)

Does the -5 penalty replace the -2 penalty used in the usual Two Weapon Fighting, granting an extra attack, but reducing the accuracy of all others even further?:
(Main Hand) +14/+9/+4/-1
(Off Hand) +14/+9
(An extra attack at +9 doesn't seem to make up for the loss in accuracy of all the other attacks, so this wouldn't seem like much of an advantage...especially if you take it to the next logical step with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, which would really drop your accuracy...)

So, anybody out there have what comes close to a definitive answer on this, and what his final Full Attack numbers would be? Also, how effective would the Rogues Sneak Attack of +3d6 damage be? If he flanks or gets a back attack on a target, can he apply this Sneak Attack Damage to each of his attacks on that target this round, or does he only get the Sneak Attack Bonus once a round, because its a special ability, or maybe a standard action to use it?

Thanks alot for any help/direction on this, we appreciate it.
dragonseth
04-30-06, 01:55 PM The Rogue's BAB of 3, and Barbarian's of 16 stack for 19, determine extra attacks from that. DO NOT determine from class lists when multiclassing, they are there for convenience and reminder, but when multiclassing, you determine extra attacks from the total BAB, using the chart at the beginning of Chapter 3. So, 19/14/9/4. When you use Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, it duplicates the first two attacks of your full attack with your main hand. So, 17/12/7/2 and 17/12.
ShinAkuma2
04-30-06, 07:23 PM Your BAB is a single number. Extra attacks are determined by the following: If you can subtract 5 from the previous entry, and still have a +1 or better, you get another attack (maximum 4 attacks).

If your BAB is 13, you can subtract 5, and get 8, and you can do it again, and get 3. This is your attack routine, 13/8/3.

So, when you multiclass, the BAB all adds up to a single number, and you determine the attack routine as above.
StevenO
04-30-06, 07:36 PM The previous information is generally correct.

Note that you will NOT get full BAB from a Barb16/Rogue5 because you've made an EPIC character. If you were Barb15/Rogue5 at level 20 then you get a BAB of +15+3=+18 while a Barb16/Rog4 would get +16+3=+19. Niether of those will effect the total number of attacks your character can make. At Epic Levels you receive either a +1 attack bonus or +1 all saves on alternating levels; I believe attack increases at odd level and saves on even ones. These add to you base attack/save when determining prereqs and the like but this Epic Attack Bonus does not add to your BAB for number of attacks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Icecaster 04-30-06, 01:04 PM	Have a couple questions relating to a new character being introduced to a higher level game, and how to figure out the number/strength of his attacks. We're playing with 3.5 rules. He's a level 16 Barbarian, level 5 Rogue, with Strength 20, Dexterity 18, Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Starting off, the base attack bonus. A level 16 Barbarian has a Base Attack of +16, which would give a Full Attack of +16/+11/+6/+1. A level 5 Rogue has a Base Attack of +3, which would normally only give him one attack. Page 59 of the PHB, under Base Attack Bonus for Multiclass characters, says that these bonuses stack, that a level 6 Rogue/level 4 Wizard would have a +6 Base Attack (+4 for the Rogue, +2 for the Wizard.) Telling you to reference the table on page 22 for Base Attack and Base Saves, the section goes on to say that a +6 Base Attack gives two attacks to this character, +6/+1, even though neither the +4 from the rogue or the +2 from the wizard levels normally allow a second attack. Following this reasoning, a level 16 Barbarian (+16 Base Attack)/level 5 Rogue (+3 Base Attack) would have a Base Attack of +19, which consulting the Base Attack and Base Saves chart gives a Full Attack of +19/+14/+9/+4. There has been some debate on this, that maybe the +16/+11/+6/+1 from Barbarian stack with the +3 from the Rogue like +19/+11/+6/+1, because the Rogues B.A. only allows him one attack, and should only boost the first attack of the Barbarian. Maybe it was done like this in an earlier version of the game, but it seems like this may make things more difficult to keep track of. We'll use the +19/+14/+9/+4 combined B.A. for the rest of this, it seems most in line with the Players Handbook; if it's actually the other way around, or something completely different, we'd appreciate the words of advice. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat now comes into the picture. The Barbarian is using two light weapons, a light mace and a dagger. After consulting the Two-Weapon Fighting chart on page 160 of the PHB, he should get his normal line of attacks with his main hand at the bonuses +17/+12/+7/+2 (-2 to each), plus one attack with his off hand at +17 (his Base Attack, -2). This seems to be generally agreed upon. Where we run into confusion is with the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and everybody seems to have a different take on this (the chart on Two Weapon Fighting doesn't extend to include Improved or Greater Two Weapon Fighting.) The feat descibes it as "In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a -5 penalty. (See Table 8-10, page 160)." We aren't completely sure how to handle this extra attack and the -5 penalty. Does this 2nd attack duplicate the bonus for the second attack in the main hand, like this? : (Main Hand) +17/+12/+7/+2 (Off Hand) +17/+12 Is the second off-hand attack at -5 exempt from the -2 found everywhere else, giving this series of bonuses instead: (Main Hand) +17/+12/+7/+2 (Off Hand) +17/+14 (This seems a bit more unlikely the more I read, the option above seems more balanced and easy to remember.) Does the -5 penalty replace the -2 penalty used in the usual Two Weapon Fighting, granting an extra attack, but reducing the accuracy of all others even further?: (Main Hand) +14/+9/+4/-1 (Off Hand) +14/+9 (An extra attack at +9 doesn't seem to make up for the loss in accuracy of all the other attacks, so this wouldn't seem like much of an advantage...especially if you take it to the next logical step with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, which would really drop your accuracy...) So, anybody out there have what comes close to a definitive answer on this, and what his final Full Attack numbers would be? Also, how effective would the Rogues Sneak Attack of +3d6 damage be? If he flanks or gets a back attack on a target, can he apply this Sneak Attack Damage to each of his attacks on that target this round, or does he only get the Sneak Attack Bonus once a round, because its a special ability, or maybe a standard action to use it? Thanks alot for any help/direction on this, we appreciate it.
dragonseth 04-30-06, 01:55 PM	The Rogue's BAB of 3, and Barbarian's of 16 stack for 19, determine extra attacks from that. DO NOT determine from class lists when multiclassing, they are there for convenience and reminder, but when multiclassing, you determine extra attacks from the total BAB, using the chart at the beginning of Chapter 3. So, 19/14/9/4. When you use Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, it duplicates the first two attacks of your full attack with your main hand. So, 17/12/7/2 and 17/12.
ShinAkuma2 04-30-06, 07:23 PM	Your BAB is a single number. Extra attacks are determined by the following: If you can subtract 5 from the previous entry, and still have a +1 or better, you get another attack (maximum 4 attacks). If your BAB is 13, you can subtract 5, and get 8, and you can do it again, and get 3. This is your attack routine, 13/8/3. So, when you multiclass, the BAB all adds up to a single number, and you determine the attack routine as above.
StevenO 04-30-06, 07:36 PM	The previous information is generally correct. Note that you will NOT get full BAB from a Barb16/Rogue5 because you've made an EPIC character. If you were Barb15/Rogue5 at level 20 then you get a BAB of +15+3=+18 while a Barb16/Rog4 would get +16+3=+19. Niether of those will effect the total number of attacks your character can make. At Epic Levels you receive either a +1 attack bonus or +1 all saves on alternating levels; I believe attack increases at odd level and saves on even ones. These add to you base attack/save when determining prereqs and the like but this Epic Attack Bonus does not add to your BAB for number of attacks.