Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ecramer 04-05-06, 12:07 AM	What are considered "threats" and "distractions" when using the bard's fascinate bardic music ability? Whilest playing DnD this night, My party and I were fighting some clerics of Hextor and a paladin of tyranny in a hallway. We were getting our asses kicked, so we decided to all retreat into a room nearby. We all ran in and closed the door. My plan was to fascinate the enemy as soon as they came in the door. Basically, what the clerics of Hextor would be seeing once they entered would be a single man, unarmed, playing a fiddle (since the rest of my party had managed to hide successfully.). My DM would not allow me to do this: he said that technically combat was NOT over, and that in the enemies' minds my party and I were still a "mental threat," esp. since we had been fighting them a mere few rounds ago. I argued that the nearby threats were over, and that they were over because my party was no longer a "distraction." What do you all think? Btw, my DM remained firm in not letting me fascinate, and one party member was killed, 2 escaped, and I was captured. My escape from the Paladin of Tyranny's torture chamber was valiant, though. :)
Thorak 04-05-06, 12:54 AM	I'd have to side with you. There's no combat to distract them. The combat was with you guys, but that's over. The potential for a future combat is neither a distraction, nor a thread, otherwise you'd never be able to use the ability. Sneak up on someone unawares, and because you might be a threat, he can't be Fascinated? Don't think so. If there's no combat actually going on, there's no immediate threat, and Fascinate can work just fine.
Vaelan 04-05-06, 02:35 AM	I would have allowed them two saving throws as there is an obvious "potential threat". They presumably saw you enter this room you regrouped in. They came into the room and saw only you. If they happen to be of non-animal intelligence, which Clerics and Paladins must be, the setup will raise suspicions of an ambush and they will immediately assume that the rest of your party is hiding in the room. The reasonable perception of possible danger, such as that of an ally of the bard approaching, is worth another saving throw. Actually, I would have informed you when you started playing a Bard that I wouldn't allow anything resembling surprise fascinations as it is silly and I would use it against you to much greater effect than you would (see: kill the whole party) as you still don't have any defense against it despite the fact that you use it constantly, but that's beside the point.
Gil Gwath 04-05-06, 03:31 AM	i'm sorry but i'm with your DM on this. Fascinate (Sp): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability. To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. [...] Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. *emphasys added So i always played fascinate looking at the bolded part. To fascinate someone you need to be paid attention. Merely hearing a bard's flute is not enough to be fascinated, you must actively listening him. In my opinion the guys entering the room were surely looking for threats, and probably they dismissed as unimportant the guy only playing the fiddle. Probably they were hearing him, and probably they were controlling him with the back of their eyes, but surely they were carefull at listening "other" sounds like someone moving or breathing somewhere, and were carefully watching the room for hidden foes. More than that to fascinate is required a perform check. What i'm going to say is not stated anywhere in the raw (at least in my knowledge), but for me a perform act can't be a simple six seconds play. I'd say you need more than a round to fascinate people, so this is usually why bards to fascinate need more time (again: more than a mere round). Probably someone could object to this saying that fascinate is a SU ability, so why not let it use in a round? I'd say that while fascinate is a SU ability, you must first grab audience attention (so they actually listenyou) and only then you can fascinate them. Another point. Probably a man who was twice robbed by "single man, unarmed, playing a fiddle" and left somewhere to wonder half naked, next time that sees a man playing the fiddle is going to shout something and intentionally not pay attention to the notes and probably will make him stop. Do you think that only for hearing a note or two that man has the possibility to be fascinated? In my opinion no. Different was if the bard with the fascinate ability told to that same man that he knows an old story where is the hint about a great treasure. If the man is interested than the bard could start the "poem" (if he has perform: oratory) or put here and there some music (if he has got perform: histrument) just saying that it is a song poem and to remember the important parts must go through the music. Obviously this could involve some bluff checks and a lot of roleplaying, but isn't this what we are looking for? :D
ManTimeForgot 04-05-06, 04:32 AM	And I'll turn around and point out in your own bolded text that you are wrong. Able to pay attention and be paid attention to are TWO very disparate things. The target must be able to pay attention to the target, but there is nothing in the ability's description that just allows somebody to ignore the ability if they feel like it. That would make the ability just worthless. I don't feel like getting fascinated so I'll just ignore the fascination. :rolleyes: Yeah that just makes perfect sense. If someone is confused, and thus not mentally able to focus on something, then you can't fascinate them. You might even argue that a frenzied berserker who is unable to cease combat and unable to relinquish attacking a target willingingly would be unable to be fascinated because it isn't ABLE to pay attention. But the dude who comes through the door CAN pay attention, and should have been hit with the fascinate. And the latter part about perform checks is just in left field. Perform checks don't take more than six seconds. And if you don't believe me what how long it takes Lestat in Queen of the Damned to go from normal playing to ridiculous playing. As much as that movie sucked it gives a pretty good view of what a "bard" could do if put to it. Bard's are intuitive musicians capable of producing "awe inspiring" music and lyrics. Fascinate is just a function of that. MTF
Droken 04-05-06, 07:38 AM	Unfortunately, your DM is correct. Battle is still going on, and you guys are still in initiative. Fascinate is all about captivating an audience. An audience who was just in the heat of battle, and against YOU no less, is certainly not going to be captivated, or fascinated by your music. A rogue who sneak attacks you, and then runs behind a wall can't technically hide again even though he has full cover and concealment. He would have to follow the rules of sniping. For this same reason and by this same logic, you cannot fascinate your enemies just merely because you went out of view for a few rounds.
Thorak 04-05-06, 09:12 AM	Able to pay attention and be paid attention to are TWO very disparate things. The target must be able to pay attention to the target, but there is nothing in the ability's description that just allows somebody to ignore the ability if they feel like it. Exactly. Even if you've got your fingers stuck in your ears and you're yelling "BOOGABOOGABOOGA" at the top of your lungs, you're still able to pay attention to the bard, you're just trying not to. Unfortunately, your DM is correct. Battle is still going on, and you guys are still in initiative. Fascinate is all about captivating an audience. An audience who was just in the heat of battle, and against YOU no less, is certainly not going to be captivated, or fascinated by your music. Wrong. It's not whether they are in combat or not. It's whether there is a nearby combat currently going on, that's an obvious threat to them. Or similar dangers. There is no combat going on here. That you're still following initiative is not relevant; there is no fighting going on. There is nothing to distract them from the music. They are under no direct threat at that very moment. Ergo, they roll a Will save.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 04-05-06, 10:28 AM	Wrong. It's not whether they are in combat or not. It's whether there is a nearby combat currently going on, that's an obvious threat to them. Or similar dangers. actually that depends on how it was played out. if the DM allowed them to just run to the next room and do what they wanted, OUTSIDE of initiative rounds, then yes the combat could be considered over. but if the DM had them move to the room round by round, player by player, close the door, hide and stand in the middle of the room and begin playing, then the combat could be considered continuing. More than that to fascinate is required a perform check. What i'm going to say is not stated anywhere in the raw (at least in my knowledge), but for me a perform act can't be a simple six seconds play. I'd say you need more than a round to fascinate people, so this is usually why bards to fascinate need more time (again: more than a mere round). Probably someone could object to this saying that fascinate is a SU ability, so why not let it use in a round? I'd say that while fascinate is a SU ability, you must first grab audience attention (so they actually listenyou) and only then you can fascinate them. as per the description of Perform, it says action: varies. for bards use of perform to use special abilities, refer to the bard class. in the description of the bardic music abilities it says that as a standard action, the bard begins playing, singing or whatever type of perform check he is going to use. then under each type of bard song, it tells what type of action is required to keep the song going, how long the effect lasts, etc. the description of fascinate says that you must have a target when you begin playing, so no already using the ability before the opponents enter the room. you can be playing your fiddle before they enter the room, but this has NO EFFECT at all, just you playing a fiddle (hope they like the song you are playing :)) once they enter the room, you choose who you want the fascinate ability to affect, and using a standard action, begin playing your fiddle for effect. if you got to the room using initiative rounds, then they would be immune to the effects and you just wasted a round and a use or more of bardic music. if it was a new combat, i would have the opponents make a Listen check before they open the door. if they hear the fiddle playing, then they know at least that the bard is in that room and i would give them a bonus on their Will save. also i would give the party a listen check to see if they hear the opponents outside the door. if they dont, then the opponents would get a suprise round, as they know you are there, but you dont know when exactly they are ready to bust through the door. the bard could however READY AN ACTION to fascinate the first person that comes through the door.
Ecramer 04-05-06, 11:25 AM	Firstly, thanks for all the input here. This is much easier and less socially awkward than arguing at the top of our lungs for 30 minutes in a commons here in UW like my DM and I were doing . . .. anyway . . . . it WAS my intent to ready a fascinate as soon as the door was opened and the foul paladin of tyranny came through. Even if I was playing the fiddle before nonmagically, though, I don't think they would get a bonus on their Will save, as they didn't know I was a bard. Also, initiative was still going on (I mean, we had to run into the room on our turns), but I still argued, (as ManTimeForgot and Thorak have done) that the threats that would hinder me from doing fascinate would be from DISTRACTIONS, physical distractions, that would stop them from being focused on me, as opposed to my DMs logic that my party and I are still a threat, as they are behind the door and the enemies know it. I doubt that being in initiative is an issue here . . .
SlagMortar 04-05-06, 12:00 PM	I would rule it that you can't ready an action to fascinate. In my opinion, if you are still tracking intiative rounds then you can't use the ability because combat is still going on. However, in this case, at the point you close the door I would re-roll initiative so if your bard beat the paladin's initiative then the bard could perform the fascinate. If tracking initiative is not enough to be considered in combat, then what is? If your party happens upon a group of enemy clerics and everyone on both sides spends the first round buffing then can the bard use fascinate during the second round of combat? In my opinion, no, combat is clearly going on even though no one is taking the attack action. I also find it funny, though clearly in the rules, that you can fascinate someone who sees you as an enemy basically instantaneously. It reminds me of Name That Tune. "I can fascinate that paladin in 4 notes."
KublaiKhan 04-05-06, 12:44 PM	I would rule it that you can't ready an action to fascinate. Why not? You can ready any other standard action. I say, go for it. The paladin will likely get a bonus to his will save...say, +2 or +4... I also find it funny, though clearly in the rules, that you can fascinate someone who sees you as an enemy basically instantaneously. It reminds me of Name That Tune. "I can fascinate that paladin in 4 notes." I can fascinate him in three notes! I can fascinate him in two notes! I can fascinate him using just F#. Alright--do it!
Shadowfax7 04-05-06, 01:27 PM	If the PCs ran from the NPCs, did the NPCs get AoOs ?? Did they chase immediately on their turns ?? Did no more than 1 round go by between the last PC entering the room and the first NPC entering the room ?? If those things happened, then why would it be a new encounter requiring a new iniative ?? It would be the same encounter w/the same iniative. Also, it's not just a nearby combat that prevents Fascinate from working, it's other dangers as well. The NPCs entering a room which they just saw (or know or presume) the hostile PCs enter, would definitely be dangerous to the NPCs !! Reverse the situation and see if you would like it as a PC being fascinated by a hostile enemy you were just fighting when you enter the room your enemies just entered. Your DM ruled appropriately.
Thorak 04-05-06, 07:41 PM	actually that depends on how it was played out. if the DM allowed them to just run to the next room and do what they wanted, OUTSIDE of initiative rounds, then yes the combat could be considered over. but if the DM had them move to the room round by round, player by player, close the door, hide and stand in the middle of the room and begin playing, then the combat could be considered continuing. I don't get it. Where does it say that there being an initiative count means there's a distracting nearby combat? Going by initiative does not mean there is currently any fighting going on. And if you're ruling that way, then the moment the players disengaged and got away, initiative should be rerolled, since that original combat ended. I'd say you've got to pick one or the other. Either initiative only lasts as long as combat goes on, in which case they shouldn't have been going by initiative any more, or initative does not mean there's an automatic distraction that prevents them from being Fascinated.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-05-06, 09:50 PM	Deciding to reroll initiative is totally up to the DM, whenever he feels that two encounters are seperated by enough time to make them different. But in general, if you are tied to the battle grid and using tactical movement, that means the difference of 5ft has a significant game effect for what is going on. It has the earmarks of a threatening situation for those involved and aware, although it does not define such a situation. If the guards know that there are living enemies hiding around, he is expecting danger, and thus shouldn't be vunerable to Fascinate. If you convince them that you are gone for good (like with illusions, actually running away and doubling back in an hour, etc.), then he would start to relax. When he is mellowed enough to not view you as enemies is another issue entirely, especially if the bard that is singing is the same one he was trying to kill ten minutes before. It would also be sensible that the entire place would be on alert (and even more Hostile to random performers than before) until the issue is resolved (unfortunately, that would probably mean having your party dead).
SlagMortar 04-05-06, 11:13 PM	Why not? You can ready any other standard action. Sorry, I was unclear. I meant you can not ready a fascinate in this situation because you can only ready an action in combat. If the combat is ongoing, then I would rule that you can't use fascinate. If combat has ceased, then I would rule that you can use fascinate, but you have to re-roll initiative. I suppose that if the bard won initiative then the bard could ready an action to fascinate, but once real combat started all the enemies would be inelligible to fascinate. Going by initiative does not mean there is currently any fighting going on. Then what does? We need a list of actions that constitute combat. We also need to know how much time has to pass between the last action that is considered combat and the bard's turn. If the last 3 people in initiative order all take "non-combat" actions, then can the bard use fascinate? Does one full round have to go by? Two rounds?
Thorak 04-05-06, 11:35 PM	Sorry, I was unclear. I meant you can not ready a fascinate in this situation because you can only ready an action in combat. If the combat is ongoing, then I would rule that you can't use fascinate. If combat has ceased, then I would rule that you can use fascinate, but you have to re-roll initiative. I suppose that if the bard won initiative then the bard could ready an action to fascinate, but once real combat started all the enemies would be inelligible to fascinate. Explain to me why I can't ready an action outside of combat, when the example the Ready action uses is outside of combat (readying an action to shoot whoever opens a door). Then what does? We need a list of actions that constitute combat. Are you shooting/swinging/casting at the enemy? No? Then there's no combat. That's what combat is. Fighting. If nobody's currently fighting, there's no combat to be distracted by. We also need to know how much time has to pass between the last action that is considered combat and the bard's turn. If the last 3 people in initiative order all take "non-combat" actions, then can the bard use fascinate? Does one full round have to go by? Two rounds? If there's no current combat, then it's fair game. If the Bard is invisible, they drop the last visible enemy, he can then immediately Fascinate them, since there's no ongoing combat. Similarly, if people are charging at you screaming bloody murder, waving their swords in the air, combat has not begun. You can most certainly nail them with a Fascinate when they get close enough, as long as your party members are holding back in the meantime, and there's no ranged combat to worry about.
SlagMortar 04-05-06, 11:56 PM	Explain to me why I can't ready an action outside of combat I'm looking at the 3.0 DM's guide. Right after talking about adjucating readied actions it says, "Don't allow players to use the ready action outside of combat." Maybe that was changed in 3.5. Maybe that sentence was excluded. I can certainly see times when I would allow a readied action outside of combat, the situation described in this thread is not one of them. Are you shooting/swinging/casting at the enemy? No? Then there's no combat. Unless someone readies an action to disrupt the bard, no one is attacking/swinging/casting on the bard's turn. Similarly, if people are charging at you screaming bloody murder, waving their swords in the air, combat has not begun. If a big guy is chasing a little guy around the room, but never quite gets close enough to punch him, I would consider that combat.
Vaelan 04-06-06, 12:53 AM	Unless someone readies an action to disrupt the bard, no one is attacking/swinging/casting on the bard's turn. I usually require an apology before responding to somebody I think is being willfully dense, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and waive the "willfully". ;) Initiative and the combat round are simply an easier way of playing out combat. Everything is supposed to happen simultaneously.
fatal error 04-06-06, 01:11 AM	Responding to the OP: I would agree with your DM. Reason? The paladin was just fighting you. If you had been hidden behind the party and then you guys all fled so he didn't know who you were, then I'd let it work. But if I barge into a room containing one of the four people I just routed in combat, and he's playing his flute, I either A) Charge him and kill him B) Take him prisoner since he's unarmed, and have him sing for me in his court. I feel like you need your targets to be at least somewhat at ease to fascinate them. Though I suppose it all depends on how magical you feel a bard's fascinate is. As far as the RAW, I think this is a purely interpretation based scenario; how do you interpret the rules for the situation, obviously you and your DM differ in that.
ScipioX 04-06-06, 01:36 AM	I totally agree with the OP's DM. While you can butcher the semantics of 'combat' like thorak seems inclined to do, I think the intent of fascinate is clear.
SlagMortar 04-06-06, 09:24 AM	I usually require an apology before responding to somebody I think is being willfully dense, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and waive the "willfully". How about if someone is being rhetorically dense? :) If acting in initiative order does not mean that there is "nearby combat", then there has to be an alternative definition, either in number of rounds or number of actions since the last combat action, that constitutes the end of "nearby combat". Thorak's definition seems to be there is no combat "currently" going on. How does "current" translate into game terms?
Obi-Wan Shinobi 04-06-06, 09:57 AM	I'd say you've got to pick one or the other. Either initiative only lasts as long as combat goes on, in which case they shouldn't have been going by initiative any more, or initative does not mean there's an automatic distraction that prevents them from being Fascinated. i wasnt picking either one- i was giving solutions to the issue; the DM has to pick one for that game, that situation. as i said, if the DM continued to use the previous initiative count, then the combat was STILL continuing. if combat was still continuing, then the bard could NOT fascinate the opponents. if the DM allowed the party to just turn tail and run, doing everything here outside of initiative count, then the combat was over and when they re-engaged in the next room, roll initiative again. the bard would now be able to use his Fascinate ability, but as i said, i would give the opponents listen checks if the bard was already playing his fiddle before they reach the room and the bard could ready an action to Fascinate the first person to come through the door. i would also give the opponents a bonus on their Will save- yes, they are on alert and ready for anything, but as Fascinate is a Spell-like ability, it could still affect them. Even if I was playing the fiddle before nonmagically, though, I don't think they would get a bonus on their Will save, as they didn't know I was a bard. they might not know you are a bard, but if the party is breaking into their hideout, im pretty sure the oppoents would think something is pretty fishy about someone standing in the middle of a room alone, just playing his fiddle, when there is COMBAT going on a few rooms away. they may not know that you are a bard, but that would be MY first guess :) Going by initiative does not mean there is currently any fighting going on. And if you're ruling that way, then the moment the players disengaged and got away, initiative should be rerolled, since that original combat ended. last i knew, you only roll initiative when there IS combat going on. first line of the initiative description says: at the start of each BATTLE, each COMBATANT makes an initiative check. this issue also works for barbarian Rage- the fatigue effects dont hit you until your duration runs out or the encounter is OVER. in this situtation, when they ran to the next room, his rage condition would be determined in the same exact way. did the encounter continue?? if yes, then the rounds need to be counted until he reaches his max duration, then he becomes fatigued, for the DURATION OF THE ENCOUNTER. if the encounter ended, the moment it was over, the barbarian would take the affects of the rage ending, as the encounter is now over. as the barbarian can only use rage once per encounter, one has to decide in this case how the encounter went. did it end when the party ran to the other room or did the encounter continue on to the next room with a few rounds of nothing much happening in bewteen. an encounter doesnt have to be just from step 1)- roll for initiative/suprise on to step X)- last opponent is now defeated, start looting and healing. it can be a running battle, from room to room or hill to hill. but if one side of the battle runs away and the other doesnt follow immediately, i would consider the encounter over. no need to continue using rounds to decide actions- you do it outside of this mechanic now. you do what you do, and figure out how long it would have taken. if one side decides- okay, lets chase em down now, we are healed up and done looting- the other side gets the same amount of time to do what they would do. then the chasers have to track down the runners, taking even more time. yes, this ,ight be harder trying to do this using combat rounds, but more precise and it also slows the game down. so this depends on how intense the group likes to have their games played. if they like to have everything done step by step, combat rounds would be the way to go. if they dont, do it outside of combat, tell em "okay- you have 15 minutes to run and do whatever you are gonna do before your opponents re-engage you." the step by step also helps if you need to know exactly when a spell effect may run out or when you may use an ability again, etc.
Thorak 04-06-06, 12:02 PM	i wasnt picking either one- i was giving solutions to the issue; the DM has to pick one for that game, that situation. as i said, if the DM continued to use the previous initiative count, then the combat was STILL continuing. if combat was still continuing, then the bard could NOT fascinate the opponents. And my point was that if you're hiding in a different room, combat is not ongoing, and when the enemy bursts in you should be rolling a new initiative. It's no different than if you both had horses, and they chased you for 5 hours. Combat stops during the chase, since neither of you is actively fighting the other. The only difference here is the period between the last attack and the upcoming one. And my point is that if you disengage, combat is over. If I Teleport 5 miles away, combat ended immediately upon my Teleporting. Same difference here; combat is over. That it is going to be starting up again soon is irrelevant to whether it is currently happening or not.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 04-06-06, 03:33 PM	just an idea- if you are going to quote someone, quote the entire part you are refuting- not just the part that backs up your statement. And my point was that if you're hiding in a different room, combat is not ongoing, and when the enemy bursts in you should be rolling a new initiative. i already said what you just did. you are stating that the combat is over when they ran to the next room. thats fine, i can agree with that too. but that is NOT the only way to play it. And my point is that if you disengage, combat is over. If I Teleport 5 miles away, combat ended immediately upon my Teleporting. Same difference here; combat is over. That it is going to be starting up again soon is irrelevant to whether it is currently happening or not. as i said earlier, the DM and group can play it 2 different ways. and i gave solutions for BOTH. you seem to think that it can be played only ONE way. thats fine if it works for your game, but it is NOT the only way it can be played. EITHER the combat continues, running through initiative and everyone doing what they do, round by round until they re-engage in the next room. the bard cannot use Fascinate, as it cannot be used against opponents already in combat. OR the combat ends when the party runs, with everything done at this point outside of combat rounds. when the oponents finally re-engage the party, new initaitve is rolled. as they are not in combat yet, the bard CAN use his Fascinate ability that he readied to use on the first person to enter the room. It's no different than if you both had horses, and they chased you for 5 hours. Combat stops during the chase, since neither of you is actively fighting the other. The only difference here is the period between the last attack and the upcoming one. actually, if one wanted to, they could play this out round by round as combat does not necessarily end during the chase, but would take a while as that would be what, 1200 rounds :). if the one being chased has no ranged weapons but the chaser does, combat easily could continue. if you are saying just because the one being chased cant/doesnt attack back that the combat is over, thats just ludicrous. now if the chasee had a 1 hour head start, then yes, i would conclude they are not in combat, until the chaser picks up his trail, tracks him down and gets within awareness range, where both sides make spot/listen checks and combat begins again, with one side possibly gaining a suprise round. same with the original posters question- if the opponents followed the party right away, the combat continued- just because one side wasnt attacking the other has nothing to do with it. if the opponents did not follow right away, they had to track down where the party actually went and when they do find them, both sides make awareness rolls- with the opponents most likely winning as they will hear the bard playing his fiddle long before the party hears them- as long as the opponents are trying to be quiet. if they are just bashing every door open and screaming "where u bastard dogs at!!", then it will probably come down to who hears who first, and who ends up getting the suprise round, if either side does. and combat STARTS ANEW. this is how it could work: the rest of the party is hiding in the room, door closed, with fiddle-man playing away in the center of the room. gonna be some hefty minuses to their listen checks to hear the bad guys. the opponents are searching around for the party. if they are doing it "stealthily" (not easy for paladins of tyranny and clerics to do), they will probably hear the bard down the hall long before the party hears them in the hallway. both sides make their listen checks, those that hear their opponents gain a suprise round- lets say none of the party hears the bad guys get to the door. everyone rolls initiative and for their suprise round, one of the bad guys opens the door and steps 5' to the side, to get out of the way of the others, who for their suprise round rush into the room, knowing that atleast someone is in there, playing a fiddle and they know that no one on their side can play a fiddle, so it has to be the guys they are fighting/chasing. as soon as the first person rushes through the door, the Bard begins trying to Fascinate the first person to enter. at this point i would give the opponent a bonus to his will save, maybe a +2. they arent in the SAME combat anymore, but he was just fighting the party, so might be a bit more ready for something. if the bard is successful, the guy he fascinates takes a seat and listens to the bards pretty fiddle playing, as the rest of his buddies rush on by into the room. (point italicized as this is a houserule part) after the suprise round is over, we start counting down who does what by initiative order. as the bard readied an action, his inititaive is the same as the opponents, and he acts just before they do. the party goes on whatever initiative they rolled. as to continue Fascinating someone takes a standard action and concentration, the bard is either going to have to stand in the middle of combat and make Concentration checks to play his fiddle "defensively" or he is going to have to stop playing, allowing the guy he Fascinated to join the fray. and combat continues until the party wins/loses or goes home for the evening.
Droken 04-06-06, 04:04 PM	With exception to Thorak, it appears that 90% of the replies are in favor of the OP Dm's decision. Let's not destroy the original intent behind fascinate by breaking down the meaning of "combat" to the word-by-word definition. So many of the above posters have made clear and strongly arguable points. Such as the big slow guy chasing the little guy around the room but cannot ever catch him.. That's definitely combat even though no one's swinging at the other. The clerics buffing up was another good, strong example. Just because none of them have cast anything offensive, and none of them have taken a swing at you, doesn't mean combat isn't going on. Initiative count is looked on by the vast majority as the marker of whether you are in combat or not. Are you saying that if the enemies took a moment to heal themselves, and your party took a moment to use their withdraw actions, that everyone should reroll initiative since no one took any offensive actions that round? That a bard on either side of the battle can suddenly fascinate everyone to drop what they're doing and listen to him strum his fiddle? That's clearly hogwash!
Shinryouga 04-06-06, 05:00 PM	Me, I'd need a few more factors to decide. Personally, I feel that initiative doesn't dictate that combat has or hasn't begun or ended. The DMG mentions using initiative rolls to determine if you can stop a party member from pulling the "ominous lever of doom", which isn't "combat" by any sane definition, unless you have really, really, high strung PCs. I agree with the DM on a few conditions. When you and fellow PCs dodged through the door, were ANY of the other PCs in the room doing ANY of the things that break fascinate? (drawing weapons, casting spells, advancing on target) If YES, then no fascinate. If NO, then fascinate is possible. I would implement a +4 bonus on the save, similar to the save against charm spells when PCs have already attacked the targeted creature. Note that any fascinate effect will only last as long as the PCs refrain from taking the previously mentioned actions. In the middle of a blackguard's stronghold, that might not be very long, especially if the BG has allies coming round the corner. As soon as PCs attempt to deal with reinforcements, they will most likely take actions that break the fascinate on the BG. So, I would have let it work if the PCs were using good teamwork and not being threatening (a blackguard running through a door after heroes and finds them with their weapons sheathed and their hands in the pockets is going to have at least one moment of "Eh?" where he's vunerable to a fascinate, IMHO). But if any weapons were still drawn, I would have let the bard "try" (operative word: try = does not guarantee "success"), rolled the save, and then described how the BG roared with fury and didn't even slow down at the bards frantic fiddling. Final note: Fascinate is an iconic bardic ability, with several serious nerfs built into it. No need to nerf it more. Good DMs look for ways to let players use their abilities to overcome challenges. I wouldn't want to play if the DM didn't let me cast spells, or swing a sword, if that was my character's thing. Just my two coppers.
Thorak 04-06-06, 05:15 PM	With exception to Thorak, it appears that 90% of the replies are in favor of the OP Dm's decision. Let's not destroy the original intent behind fascinate by breaking down the meaning of "combat" to the word-by-word definition. It's my opinion that the original poster's DM is doing exactly that; destroying the original intent behind Fascinate. Such as the big slow guy chasing the little guy around the room but cannot ever catch him.. That's definitely combat even though no one's swinging at the other. No, it's a chase. They're not fighting. That they would fight at some point, if the big guy caught up, isn't relevant. The clerics buffing up was another good, strong example. Just because none of them have cast anything offensive, and none of them have taken a swing at you, doesn't mean combat isn't going on. Sure it does. Though casting a spell counts as an "obvious threat", which also breaks the Fascinate. As would aiming a ranged weapon at them without firing it, for instance. That doesn't make it combat. If the party's trying to surrender, the enemy just wants to kill them, and the Bard Fascinates the enemy, and then the Cleric tries to heal a mortally injured party member with a Cure Light, that breaks Fascinate but it is not combat. Initiative count is looked on by the vast majority as the marker of whether you are in combat or not. If that's the case, then the moment you're out of combat, you're out of intiative. That's my point; if you're going to rule that way, that's fine, but stop stretching initiative over those non-combat portions of the game at the same time. Are you saying that if the enemies took a moment to heal themselves, and your party took a moment to use their withdraw actions, that everyone should reroll initiative since no one took any offensive actions that round? That a bard on either side of the battle can suddenly fascinate everyone to drop what they're doing and listen to him strum his fiddle? That's clearly hogwash! If the party and the enemy both disengage and aren't attacking each other, then yes, there's no combat currently. Combat means fighting. No fighting, no combat. Simple. Especially since the passage of Fascinate talking about combat is talking about distracting immediate dangers. If there's nothing happening, there's nothing distracting going on.
Ecramer 04-06-06, 06:05 PM	Yeah, my arguments were much like Thorak's. The issue at hand isn't whether we are technically in combat or not. It is whether the enemies are being DISTRACTED so my fascinate wouldn't work. I mean, we're not talking about me playing a fiddle really well. Fascinate is MAGICAL. It overwhelms logic and reason, and only the most disturbing distractions can stop it--like actual, physical combat. I imagined that when the paladin of tyranny entered the room, seeing me, alone, playing a fiddle, his thoughts would be more of bafflement than battle. Good thing he wasn't a paladin of slaughter . . . I would be totally ****ed . . .
ManTimeForgot 04-06-06, 06:18 PM	It doesn't matter if "combat" is still going on. What matters is if actual combat is taking place. In the general sense "combat" may still be occuring if someone is chasing down another person. But no danger is taking place, and if you read the description of fascinate THAT is what matters. "The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working" Emphasis Mine. A person who is just running away like a bloody coward is NOT a danger to you. And so you could be fascinated away from chasing that person down. The only exception is if actual combat (as in battle) were taking place nearby which would prevent you from focusing on the bard. The issue is could the target focus on the bard and was there an actual tangible danger present in the room. If no one else was visible, then there was no tangible danger (no threat to distract attention away from the bard). And the target was able to focus on the bard. So the ability should have worked. The DM is well within his rights to give a bonus to the saving throw since the targets might well believe there to be threats about, but the belief that there are threats about is insufficient to render the ability inoperative. If that were sufficient, then a paranoid character would be immune to bardic fascination, and that quite clearly is not the case. It should amaze me how ignorant most people are of how the bard actually works. Of coruse considering most people think bards are one of the weakest classes, even if its in the top 4 most powerful, this doesn't totally surprise me. MTF
Nephlite 04-06-06, 06:20 PM	i wasnt picking either one- i was giving solutions to the issue; the DM has to pick one for that game, that situation. as i said, if the DM continued to use the previous initiative count, then the combat was STILL continuing. if combat was still continuing, then the bard could NOT fascinate the opponents. Agreed, IF combat was continuing. Whether or not closing a door ends combat is up to DM. they might not know you are a bard, but if the party is breaking into their hideout, im pretty sure the oppoents would think something is pretty fishy about someone standing in the middle of a room alone, just playing his fiddle, when there is COMBAT going on a few rooms away. they may not know that you are a bard, but that would be MY first guess :) I would require the NPCs to have Knowldge checks rolled. Knowledge Arcana maybe. DC 15. last i knew, you only roll initiative when there IS combat going on. first line of the initiative description says: at the start of each BATTLE, each COMBATANT makes an initiative check. Sometimes when players want to look for traps or something else: Intitiative can be important tosee how things went down in time. this issue also works for barbarian Rage- the fatigue effects dont hit you until your duration runs out or the encounter is OVER. Nope. Fatigue only hits you when Rage is over Before the encounter is over. If the Encounter ends before rage: no penalty. Fatigue lasts duration of encounter. If no more encounter: no more fatigue. Anything more is not the Holy RAW and is a house rule. in this situtation, when they ran to the next room, his rage condition would be determined in the same exact way. did the encounter continue?? if yes, then the rounds need to be counted until he reaches his max duration, then he becomes fatigued, for the DURATION OF THE ENCOUNTER. if the encounter ended, the moment it was over, the barbarian would take the affects of the rage ending, as the encounter is now over. as the barbarian can only use rage once per encounter, one has to decide in this case how the encounter went. did it end when the party ran to the other room or did the encounter continue on to the next room with a few rounds of nothing much happening in bewteen. If DM says encounter is over: rage is over.
Vaelan 04-06-06, 07:27 PM	How about if someone is being rhetorically dense? :) I'm primarily concerned with the disingenuity. If acting in initiative order does not mean that there is "nearby combat", then there has to be an alternative definition, either in number of rounds or number of actions since the last combat action, that constitutes the end of "nearby combat". Thorak's definition seems to be there is no combat "currently" going on. How does "current" translate into game terms? Acting in initiative order means nothing. It is a metagame term and thus is not recognizable by either the characters or NPCs. Fascinate is a matter of perception, and thus metagame concepts such as initiative which exist entirely outside of the perceptions of the subjects, are irrelevant. I say that if no two people are threatening each other and there are no active, harmful effects such as a Flaming Sphere around, then there is no distraction.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-06-06, 07:45 PM	The main problem is that the Paladin is walking into that room with the expectation to kill someone that shouldn't be there, and a person he was just fighting/doesn't know and is deep within his temple/fortress certainly qualifies. This is the perfect time for a rushed Diplomacy check to bring him to Indifferent. That would be convincing him that the bard is not his enemy, and then he might be vunerable to Fascinate.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 04-06-06, 08:04 PM	Agreed, IF combat was continuing. Whether or not closing a door ends combat is up to DM. which is exactly my point. the rules dont say exactly when an encounter begins or ends. is it only when initiative is rolled or when one or both sides decide they have had enough and die or run?? that is up the the DM and the group they are with. for this arguement, the original poster and his group needs to decide on this issue. until they get their decision here, nothing else will make a difference. I would require the NPCs to have Knowldge checks rolled. Knowledge Arcana maybe. DC 15. did the DM require them to make knowledge checks to know the opponents were clerics of X god or a paladin of tyranny?? if not, then they dont need to make the same check. if you come into a room and the guy is wearing light armor, equiped with a rapier or maybe simple weapons, and is standing there playing a FIDDLE in the middle of an enemy stronghold- and is not one of the enemy- seems pretty reasonable to say "hey, i bet he is a bard". yes this is a bit of metagaming, but not only the PC's know what all classes exist. Sometimes when players want to look for traps or something else: Intitiative can be important tosee how things went down in time. yup, this does help to make sure the DM and the players know where everyone is at a particular moment during the game. but if they are looking for traps, it could be considered combat, as most traps have either a saving throw or a to hit roll. im not saying i would use initiative every time the PC's look for traps, as this would lead them to know that when they have to roll initiative and there is no combat, then they must have a trap to deal with. Nope. Fatigue only hits you when Rage is over Before the encounter is over. If the Encounter ends before rage: no penalty. Fatigue lasts duration of encounter. which was my point, if the DM says that the encounter was continuing from the previous room, then the barbarian would take the penalties due to his rage running out, as the encounter was not over yet. if he ruled that the previous encounter was finished, the barabarian would have nothing to worry about as long as his rage didnt end before the combat did. when they went to the next room, its all good for him. and i misread the part about the fatigue lasting after the encounter- oops. doesnt change the issue much tho. If DM says encounter is over: rage is over. actually if the DM says the encounter is over, the rage penalties are over, not neccesarily the rage itself. these last two parts go to the crux of the situation- if the persons in this game do not know what the definitions of when an encounter starts and ends, then these kinds of issues will arise. in the barabrian example, if they have more than 1 rage per day, this is critical, as they need to know if they can rage again when the party got to the next room and hid. if the encounter was over, then they are getting it good as not only are any rage penalties now gone, but they can also rage again. if it was a continuing encounter, then they probably have the rage penalties to deal with (unless they have a con bonus of +10 or more to last 10 rounds +) PLUS they cannot rage again when they opponents re-engage them in the next room.
SlagMortar 04-06-06, 10:29 PM	I'm primarily concerned with the disingenuity. I apologize. I thought it was pretty clear what I meant from the context, but I guess it was not. I will try to be more clear in the future. Acting in initiative order means nothing. It is a metagame term and thus is not recognizable by either the characters or NPCs. Fascinate is a matter of perception, and thus metagame concepts such as initiative which exist entirely outside of the perceptions of the subjects, are irrelevant. Agreed. To the characters, everything is happening at the same time. If the party runs through a door and on the very next available opportunity the enemies move through the door then there was really no time when the party had the room to itself. Everyone rushed through at more or less the same time. If you remove initiative order and only look at character perception then someone swinging a sword immediately after the bard's turn (in initiative order) is really swinging the sword during the fascination attempt and so the fascination retroactively fails. I consider maneuvering for position and running around to be combat and I consider it to be distracting even if no one is actually swinging a sword. Clearly some of the other posters disagree with me on that point. I believe that is truly a difference of opinion and I don't see how resolve it. If some time, say one complete round, passed with the two groups unaware of each other, then I would say in this case it is time to roll initiative again. The party does not know exactly when the enemies will be coming through the door and the enemies do not know for sure the party is in the room. While the door was closed detection checks could be rolled to determine if one group has surprise or not. If the party scryed on the enemies or use a familiar to warn them the enemies were about to open the door, then I would give the bard a surprise round to perform his fascinate which would have the same effect. It is my opinion that fascinate is intended to be used on targets that are not trying to attack you on sight, or that you are able to fascinate before they know what's happening such as in a surprise round or by winning initiative.
Thorak 04-06-06, 10:59 PM	Agreed. To the characters, everything is happening at the same time. If the party runs through a door and on the very next available opportunity the enemies move through the door then there was really no time when the party had the room to itself. Everyone rushed through at more or less the same time. If you remove initiative order and only look at character perception then someone swinging a sword immediately after the bard's turn (in initiative order) is really swinging the sword during the fascination attempt and so the fascination retroactively fails. If we're talking about later that same round, as in during the round after the party ran into the other room, then sure. I can accept that. If it's been 2 or 3, though, no dice. I consider maneuvering for position and running around to be combat and I consider it to be distracting even if no one is actually swinging a sword. Clearly some of the other posters disagree with me on that point. I believe that is truly a difference of opinion and I don't see how resolve it. Depends on how you're maneuvering, and what the surrounding circumstances are. If the enemy has weapons drawn and is advancing, then that counts as an "obvious threat" and breaks Fascinate anyway. If you've got a weapon drawn, and are circling around looking for an advantage, and the guy is unarmed, then no, there's no combat to be distracted by if he suddenly starts singing. The biggest weakness of Fascinate is the party. They're too likely to do something that will break it, if you haven't thoroughly prepped them first. If 5 orcs are charging you, and you can catch 5 creatures, if your party hasn't started attacking them then there is no "combat" to be distracted by, regardless of the intent of the orcs. Of course, if any one of the 5 makes its save, then once they close and start attacking, that combat snaps the rest out of it. It is my opinion that fascinate is intended to be used on targets that are not trying to attack you on sight, or that you are able to fascinate before they know what's happening such as in a surprise round or by winning initiative. Believe me, I agree. My point is just that intent to be fighting isn't the same as actually fighting, and it's whether there is a current combat that breaks Fascinate, not the intent of the party or those attacking them.