Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dunamin 09-09-06, 02:55 PM	I have a player who wants to put barding on his dire wolf animal companion. It seems quite possible, but I must admit never to have considered the option before. I did wonder, if it wouldn't be irritated by the barding and scratch and bite at it, without being trained in wearing it, so perhaps it requires a trick? What about armor proficiency? I've never considered if a horse would be effected by the lack of armor proficiency while wearing barding. So, just wanted to check with the fine people at this forum - what are the rules concerning this?
dragonseth 09-09-06, 02:59 PM	Don't quote me on this, barding is one of my weaker points, but I believe the wolf would have to take Armor Proficiency, otherwise take all the normal penalties for being non-proficient. Aside from that, no other penalties.
Jaaz 09-09-06, 03:01 PM	Horses and Warhorses DON'T have Armor Proficiency feats. It does NOT affect their combat.
ShinAkuma2 09-09-06, 03:15 PM	Indeed, it must have the feat, or have the "Warbeast template" from MMII applied to it. Otherwise, it takes the armor check penalty as a penalty to attack rolls. Note that warhorses and riding dogs are already considered to have said template, and thus are proficient with barding.
runestar 09-09-06, 11:12 PM	So long as the barding itself does not have any armour check penalty, the wolf will not suffer any drawbacks even if it is not proficient with the armour. You could roleplay it being uncomfortable in its armour, but mechanics wise, it will not impact its stats negatively. This means you can give it either leather armour, masterwork studded leather, mithril chain shirt or masterwork spidersilk armour, quadruple the cost for making it into barding, of course...:)
ShinAkuma2 09-09-06, 11:34 PM	So long as the barding itself does not have any armour check penalty, the wolf will not suffer any drawbacks even if it is not proficient with the armour. You could roleplay it being uncomfortable in its armour, but mechanics wise, it will not impact its stats negatively. But wolves in full plate are so entertaining. Wolf: *clank clank* {whimper} Ranger: Shut up and like it! Oh, it's even better if you're a druid. "I would never wear worked metal armor...but my animal companion sure as hell will."
Seerow 09-09-06, 11:38 PM	*snik* That's why I never put my animals in any armor heavier than light. ESPECIALLY if they're serving as a mount.
mvincent 09-11-06, 02:43 PM	War-trained animals are considered to be proficient in armor. The animal type in the MM is described as: "Proficient with no armor unless trained for war." ... indicating that war-trained animals are proficient with armor. Also, the Monster Manual II page 219 says that an animal with war training is automatically proficient with armor.
BW0222 09-11-06, 04:02 PM	Dunamin, >I have a player who wants to put barding on his dire wolf >animal companion. Easy. It is even listed in the PHB. It is large exotic armour which weights twice as much and costs four times as much. >I did wonder, if it wouldn't be irritated by the barding and >scratch and bite at it, without being trained in wearing it, so >perhaps it requires a trick? What about armor proficiency? I wouldn't worry about it irritated with it... war dogs were often barded and a dire wolf would have mighty thick hide, plus the strength to carry it with little affect. As for proficiency... just treat all animals like horses. War horses are trained for war (they have the war set of tricks). Non-war horses are not proficient. Same with ponies, giant lizards, or dire wolves. i.e. any animal trained with that set should be considered proficient in armour. Of course... as an animal companion it could use its bonus feats for 'armour proficiency (light)' but this gets confusing since horses don't need/require it.
bondious 09-11-06, 05:18 PM	I think that this might fall under the Handle Animal skill. Now I know it doesn't say anything specificly about animals trained for war or animals trained to wear armor/barding, but I'm sure that the rules below could be used as a guildeline for these situations, especially the "Train an animal for a general purpose" info. HANDLE ANIMAL (CHA; TRAINED ONLY) Check: The DC depends on what you are trying to do. Task Handle an animal: DC=10 “Push” an animal: DC=25 Teach an animal a trick: DC=15 or 20* Train an animal for a general purpose: DC=15 or 20* Rear a wild animal: DC=15 + HD of animal *See the specific trick or purpose below. General Purpose Combat riding: DC=20 Hunting: DC=20 Fighting: DC=20 Performance: DC=15 Guarding: DC=20 Riding: DC=15 Heavy labor: DC=15 Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action. “Push” an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action. Teach an Animal a Trick: You can teach an animal a specific trick with one week of work and a successful Handle Animal check against the indicated DC. An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricks. Possible tricks (and their associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following. Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks. Come (DC 15): The animal comes to you, even if it normally would not do so. Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend a specific other character. Down (DC 15): The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn’t know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated. Fetch (DC 15): The animal goes and gets something. If you do not point out a specific item, the animal fetches some random object. Guard (DC 20): The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching. Heel (DC 15): The animal follows you closely, even to places where it normally wouldn’t go. Perform (DC 15): The animal performs a variety of simple tricks, such as sitting up, rolling over, roaring or barking, and so on. Seek (DC 15): The animal moves into an area and looks around for anything that is obviously alive or animate. Stay (DC 15): The animal stays in place, waiting for you to return. It does not challenge other creatures that come by, though it still defends itself if it needs to. Track (DC 20): The animal tracks the scent presented to it. (This requires the animal to have the scent ability) Work (DC 15): The animal pulls or pushes a medium or heavy load. Train an Animal for a Purpose: Rather than teaching an animal individual tricks, you can simply train it for a general purpose. Essentially, an animal’s purpose represents a preselected set of known tricks that fit into a common scheme, such as guarding or heavy labor. The animal must meet all the normal prerequisites for all tricks included in the training package. If the package includes more than three tricks, the animal must have an Intelligence score of 2. An animal can be trained for only one general purpose, though if the creature is capable of learning additional tricks (above and beyond those included in its general purpose), it may do so. Training an animal for a purpose requires fewer checks than teaching individual tricks does, but no less time. Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose. Fighting (DC 20): An animal trained to engage in combat knows the tricks attack, down, and stay. Training an animal for fighting takes three weeks. Guarding (DC 20): An animal trained to guard knows the tricks attack, defend, down, and guard. Training an animal for guarding takes four weeks. Heavy Labor (DC 15): An animal trained for heavy labor knows the tricks come and work. Training an animal for heavy labor takes two weeks. Hunting (DC 20): An animal trained for hunting knows the tricks attack, down, fetch, heel, seek, and track. Training an animal for hunting takes six weeks. Performance (DC 15): An animal trained for performance knows the tricks come, fetch, heel, perform, and stay. Training an animal for performance takes five weeks. Riding (DC 15): An animal trained to bear a rider knows the tricks come, heel, and stay. Training an animal for riding takes three weeks. Rear a Wild Animal: To rear an animal means to raise a wild creature from infancy so that it becomes domesticated. A handler can rear as many as three creatures of the same kind at once. A successfully domesticated animal can be taught tricks at the same time it’s being raised, or it can be taught as a domesticated animal later. Hope this helps. :D
stevetom 09-11-06, 05:28 PM	I have a player who wants to put barding on his dire wolf animal companion. It seems quite possible, but I must admit never to have considered the option before. I did wonder, if it wouldn't be irritated by the barding and scratch and bite at it, without being trained in wearing it, so perhaps it requires a trick? What about armor proficiency? I've never considered if a horse would be effected by the lack of armor proficiency while wearing barding. So, just wanted to check with the fine people at this forum - what are the rules concerning this? thats exactly what im doing with my level 1 druid's riding dog. leather barding yeah! +2 AC for 30 gold. now the dog has better AC than i do :( i tend to agree that an animal does not need a proficiency to eliminate attack penalties as long as you limit them to armors with no check penalty
Lord Lorac Silvanos 09-11-06, 05:32 PM	thats exactly what im doing with my level 1 druid's riding dog. leather barding yeah! +2 AC for 30 gold. now the dog has better AC than i do :( i tend to agree that an animal does not need a proficiency to eliminate attack penalties as long as you limit them to armors with no check penalty It is only 20 GP for a non-humanoid leather armor for a medium creature.
stevetom 09-11-06, 05:58 PM	for gods' sake, its close enough. *shakes head*
mvincent 09-11-06, 06:08 PM	i tend to agree that an animal does not need a proficiency to eliminate attack penalties as long as you limit them to armors with no check penaltyer... there seems to be no attack penalties to eliminate if there is no armor check penalty. Also note that it was clarified prior to your post that a war trained animal does not have to worry about proficiency (so the purpose of your post kinda confused me).
Dunamin 09-12-06, 07:06 AM	Thanks for all your replies. Horses and Warhorses DON'T have Armor Proficiency feats. It does NOT affect their combat. Of course... as an animal companion it could use its bonus feats for 'armour proficiency (light)' but this gets confusing since horses don't need/require it. Isn’t this only applicable for warhorses, not for riding horses? One thing I’m curious about though: Warhorses and riding dogs are bred for war, so they are proficient with armor, but is that feature assumed to have taken up any of the tricks they can learn? This is what I understand by BW0222s reply: War horses are trained for war (they have the war set of tricks) If this is so, which combination of tricks confers the ability to be proficient with armor? If this is not so, the dire wolf would require armor proficiency feats, if the player wants it to wear armor without incurring the aforementioned penalties (if there are any). I suppose I could allow him to gain a dire wolf with the feat, by having him free one raised for war by humanoids, ever since it was captured as a cub.
kjenks 09-12-06, 09:18 AM	er... there seems to be no attack penalties to eliminate if there is no armor check penalty. Masterwork studded leather armor: +3 armor bonus to AC, no ACP. Mithral chain shirt: +4 armor bonus to AC, no ACP. Armor for a large non-humanoid costs x4 the base amount of the armor, and then you add the cost of masterwork or special materials. For a dire wolf, masterwork studded leather barding would cost 25x4 + 150 = 250 gp, and mithral chain shirt barding would cost 100x4 + 1,000 = 1,400 gp. Notice that you can put a +1 enhancement bonus on that mastework studded leather barding for 1,000 gp more, so at 1,250 gp you have the same AC bonus as the mithral stuff for a slightly lower price. But be careful about the maximum dex bonus: +5 for that MW studded vs. +6 for the mithral stuff. Also note that it was clarified prior to your post that a war trained animal does not have to worry about proficiency (so the purpose of your post kinda confused me). Part of the confusion in this area is that there is no definition in the rules saying what "trained for war" really means. I think it means "having all of the tricks listed in the combat riding general purpose as described in the Handle Animal skill" but that's just an opinion.
runestar 09-12-06, 09:26 AM	Alternatively, there's always mage armour prior to battles...:P
mvincent 09-12-06, 01:23 PM	Masterwork studded leather armor: +3 armor bonus to AC, no ACP. Mithral chain shirt: +4 armor bonus to AC, no ACP.That appears to be unrelated to my comment. My point was that: "A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks." So I thought stevetom was (mootly) voicing an opinion on a rules interpretation when he said: "i tend to agree that an animal does not need a proficiency to eliminate attack penalties as long as you limit them to armors with no check penalty" Part of the confusion in this area is that there is no definition in the rules saying what "trained for war" really means. I think it means "having all of the tricks listed in the combat riding general purpose as described in the Handle Animal skill" but that's just an opinion.Agree completely (I was just didn't feel that stevetom was addressing that, but was rather addressing a portion of the discussion that was resolved).
kjenks 09-12-06, 03:43 PM	That appears to be unrelated to my comment. My point was that: "A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks." I was agreeing with your point, and I was going the next step by describing the best two types of armor you can wear that have no ACP. runestar points out that Mage Armor also has no ACP. As an aside, almost every golem should be wearing MW studded leather armor or mithral chain shirt.
mvincent 09-12-06, 03:47 PM	I was agreeing with your point, and I was going the next step by describing the best two types of armor you can wear that have no ACP. runestar points out that Mage Armor also has no ACP. As an aside, almost every golem should be wearing MW studded leather armor or mithral chain shirt.Ah. Got it. Thanks! Good tips.
BW0222 09-12-06, 07:37 PM	Dunamin, >>Of course... as an animal companion it could use its bonus >>feats for 'armour proficiency (light)' but this gets confusing >>since horses don't need/require it. >Isn’t this only applicable for warhorses, not for riding horses? No. Any creature can take the "armor proficiency (light)" feat. A wizard could take it, if he really wanted to. So could a horse, provided it gets a feat somewhere. For example, a wolf (1hd) becomes a druid's animal companion. At 3rd-level, it gains two bonus hit dice and associated benefits, including the bonus feat for having 3hd. It could take the feat "Armor Proficiency (Light)". >This is what I understand by BW0222s reply: >>War horses are trained for war (they have the war set of >>tricks) >If this is so, which combination of tricks confers the ability to >be proficient with armor? See Combat riding under PHP p75. "Train an animal for a purpose". "Warhorses and riding dogs (see the Monster Manual) are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don't require any additional training for this purpose." i.e. the warhorse and riding dogs are already trained with attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. >If this is not so, the dire wolf would require armor proficiency >feats, if the player wants it to wear armor without incurring >the aforementioned penalties (if there are any). I suppose I >could allow him to gain a dire wolf with the feat, by having >him free one raised for war by humanoids, ever since it was >captured as a cub. No need for the feat. Just train him with the combat riding purpose (attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel). It requires 6 weeks and a DC 20 check. It would then be "trained for war" the same as a warhorse or riding dog. One could also imagine that someone actually trained a riding horse for war. Gave them those sets of tricks. In reality, no one would... it would be a waste of time and effort on a 'lesser' horse not able to bear that kind of weight or dish out that kind of damage. You might find elves training elk or gnomes training wild boars.
dragonseth 09-12-06, 07:43 PM	Sorry, but we need a terminology clarification. "Trained for war" through tricks doesn't give Armor Prof. There's a template called Wartrained that does give it. The warhorses et cetera all have this template.
mvincent 09-12-06, 08:02 PM	"Trained for war" through tricks doesn't give Armor Prof. There's a template called Wartrained that does give it. The warhorses et cetera all have this template.Where is that template? What does it actually say?
dragonseth 09-12-06, 08:28 PM	It was mentioned in this thread already. Warbeast template from MM2. I don't have it, so I can't tell you the details.
Dunamin 09-13-06, 03:01 AM	Dunamin, >>Of course... as an animal companion it could use its bonus >>feats for 'armour proficiency (light)' but this gets confusing >>since horses don't need/require it. >Isn’t this only applicable for warhorses, not for riding horses? No. Any creature can take the "armor proficiency (light)" feat. I wasn't refering to the part on whether an animal companion could use feats gained through bonus HD to select Armor Proficiency, but to the part on whether horses don't need/require them. It was to my understanding that a riding horse isn't bred for war, thus it confuses me that it doesn't need or require profiency or training to be able to effectively wear armor. Is that really the case? >>War horses are trained for war (they have the war set of >>tricks) >If this is so, which combination of tricks confers the ability to >be proficient with armor? See Combat riding under PHP p75. "Train an animal for a purpose". "Warhorses and riding dogs (see the Monster Manual) are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don't require any additional training for this purpose." i.e. the warhorse and riding dogs are already trained with attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. This passage doesn't actually say that having the Combat Riding set of tricks confers the ambigious trait of being "trained for war", though I would agree that it implies that. It might just be saying that since warhorses and riding dogs already have this training, this a requirement to be become trained for war. One thing that I was pondering, is how the general purpose of Fighting isn't encompassed by Combat Riding, though one might reason that it would be equally important for the animal to be able to effectively wear armor, regardless of which of these 2 purposes was desired... Sorry, but we need a terminology clarification. "Trained for war" through tricks doesn't give Armor Prof. There's a template called Wartrained that does give it. The warhorses et cetera all have this template. I agree that we need a terminology clarification, but if what you're saying is true, shouldn't a light warhorse equal a light horse with the Warbeast template? The problem in my opinion, is what the exact requirements are to be determined "trained for war". Initially, I thought defining it by a set of tricks would make sense, perhaps even identifying it with the Combat Riding general purpose, but now I'm not so sure. Sorry to add confusement, I just don't think these rules are very clear-cut in the books. I very much appreciate the effort put forth by you all to sort it out. :)
kjenks 09-13-06, 07:59 AM	Congratulations. You have come to a complete understanding of the "trained for war" problem. Part of the confusion in this area is that there is no definition in the rules saying what "trained for war" really means. I think it means "having all of the tricks listed in the combat riding general purpose as described in the Handle Animal skill" but that's just an opinion.
Dunamin 09-13-06, 08:33 AM	Well, I suppose I'll go with that if nothing else comes up. If being "trained for war" is defined through the set of tricks you possess, it won't be that much of a problem anyway, in the case of a dire wolf animal companion, since it would know a minimum of 7 tricks - enough to take all those that can be thought of as relevant to combat (the remaining ones are fetch, perform, seek, track and work, none of which seem to make sense in a combat situation). Minor question: I know that by RAW there is nothing wrong with a druid giving his animal companion metal barding, but what do you think about this, flavor-wise? Would you impose the non-metallic restriction? Personally, if I played the druid, I wouldn't give the animal companion any barding at all since it's unnatural, but I don't mind the player going through with it.
Watchman 09-13-06, 09:26 AM	Horses are basically just giant rabbits - skittish herbivores whose first instinct is to run like the wind from anything even remotely scary. Recall that wild horses don't actually grow too much larger than ponies, and ones "gone feral" will tend to start reverting back towards the "natural" size in few generations in the absence of the selective breeding humans impose on the beasts for their own purposes, an inherent little detail which no doubt doesn't help the courage of said animals one bit. Even the best trained warhorses could be scared off by solid lumps of men making much noise; there's records of second-rate Late Roman infantry seeing off Sassanid cataphracts (superheavy cavalry if you need to know) that way. If something as basically unsuited for combat as that can be trained to fight in armour, nevermind bearing a rider, simply with enough time and effort (a major factor in the often ludicrously high price tag of decent war-mounts), then so long as you can get the damn thing to cooperate something as inherently ferocious (and, one suspects, fair bit smarter than a flighty grazer) as Dire Wolf should be a breeze. And Animal Companions tend not have excessive cooperation issues anyway, even if the type of beast would in the wild be utterly untamable.
keith187 09-13-06, 06:30 PM	If you have the time and the skill to do it you can train your Dire wolf to give it the warbeast template. To train a domestic animal its a handle animal check of 20 and it takes two months. For a wild animal you have to rear it for a year which is a handle animal check of 15+its HD then another 2 months and another check of DC20+HD. If its a warbeast based on a beast I'm not to sure what that means all the time is the same but the checks are 5 higher then the wild animal. Vermin being mindless cannot be trained as warbeasts. I'm not sure if you would have to spend the year to rear your animal companion but if you did you'd need the time and a handle animal check of 21 provided your wolf doesn't get any bonus HD. and you'd need a handle animal check of 26 to make it a warbeast, which gives it some other benifits besides the armor. It'll get one extra HD +3 str/con, +2wis, +1 to sopt and listen, and you get a +2 bonus on your ride check when using the mount. Also if it matters the animals CR is increased by 1
mvincent 09-13-06, 06:42 PM	If you have the time and the skill to do it you can train your Dire wolf to give it the warbeast template. To train a domestic animal its a handle animal check of 20 and it takes two months.To clarify: is this something that is stated in the MMII (under the warbeast template)?