Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jonny Reload 02-20-06, 08:33 AM	When you get an extra attack due to your base attack bonus (Ex. +6/+1) And let's say you used a Feat like Power Attack and took a -6 penalty to get +6 Damage... Do you get the second attack (Ex. +0/-5) or is that attack completely gone? (Sorry if this was already asked, I couldn't find any threads with this particular topic)
jokotoko 02-20-06, 08:49 AM	You get the second attack with the penalty. The modifiers have nothing to do with it. Similarly, having a BAB of +3, a strength mod of +3 and the weapon focus feat (for a total of +7) does not give you 2 attacks at +7/+2. You only look at the BAB to determine the nr of attacks you get. Happy gaming!
Majick 02-20-06, 08:50 AM	Concerning power attack Well if you have a viable number of base attacks, +6,+1 as you stated, you could take 5 from the first and do the extra 5 damage but only get +1 to hit, but the second is what it is, and that's an entirely different attack all together! If you wish to take 1 from the second attack you've just earned through leveling then you may but you must indicate how much of a deduction you are going to make from EACH ATTACK before you make the roll, keeping in mind of course that you can NEVER go below 0 when using this feat. You have obviously been going under the pretence that power attack from one and the other will follow, but this is not so. One attack with force does not mean the next attack must be the same. :D
Rhomphaia 02-20-06, 09:12 AM	Concerning power attack Well if you have a viable number of base attacks, +6,+1 as you stated, you could take 5 from the first and do the extra 5 damage but only get +1 to hit, but the second is what it is, and that's an entirely different attack all together! If you wish to take 1 from the second attack you've just earned through leveling then you may but you must indicate how much of a deduction you are going to make from EACH ATTACK before you make the roll, keeping in mind of course that you can NEVER go below 0 when using this feat. You have obviously been going under the pretence that power attack from one and the other will follow, but this is not so. One attack with force does not mean the next attack must be the same. :D Nice house rule. However, I think the OP was asking for clarification on RAW. After reviewing the wording of the feat, I come to the conclusion that yes, you still get your multiple attacks. So fully pumping a +6 base attack bonus into power attack will net you a +0/-5 on your attack rolls, before any other modifiers.
Darth_Azalin 02-20-06, 09:20 AM	I believe someone has problem with reading.. Under benefit... On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to stubract a number from ALL melee attacks rolls and may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn... So your +6/+1 could take -6 and his attacks would be (0/-5) with 6 on his damage (using a one handed weapon or 12 with a two handed weapon)... What is even could be said is that you could in this case take a -7 and get 7 or 14 depending on weapon.. Mainly because once you get too +6 you get another attack at +1 (or -5 off the 1 attack .. just like a natural weapon monster).. So back to your example of the 6/1 taking 6 on a power attack would then make you 0/-5 till his next round.. so all his attacks of opportunity will be at 0 but with 6 or 12 more damage... Also you can't power attack with a light weapon...
DrMorganes 02-20-06, 09:29 AM	What is even could be said is that you could in this case take a -7 and get 7 or 14 depending on weapon.. Mainly because once you get too +6 you get another attack at +1 (or -5 off the 1 attack .. just like a natural weapon monster)..Not quite. +6/+1 does not make a Base Attack Bonus of +7. The Base Attack Bonus is +6, capping Power Attack modifiers at -6/+6.
Tyler Do'Urden 02-20-06, 09:35 AM	You get both of your attacks because Power Attack doesn't affect your Base Attack Bonus. It applies to your total attack bonus just like everything else. It's limited by your BAB, but that doesn't mean it's subtracting from it. There's only two things in this game that ever alter your actual BAB: Gaining a level. Losing a level. That's it. (and if you've got average or poor BAB, even that doesn't do it sometimes). A character with a BAB of +6/+1 using Power Attack does not lose his second attack, nor does a character with a BAB of +5 and Weapon Focus gain a second attack. BAB is a completely separate and constant bonus to which other things are added to determine your total attack bonus in a given situation. Secondly, your BAB isn't really "+6/+1". It's just +6. The extra attacks are just a function of this number and are included on the tables for convenience.
Darth_Azalin 02-20-06, 09:40 AM	Not quite. +6/+1 does not make a Base Attack Bonus of +7. The Base Attack Bonus is +6, capping Power Attack modifiers at -6/+6. please read p.22 of the phb.. nothing in it states that the cap of power attack is 6.. note the 20th lvl fighter.. +20/+15/+10/+5 so your saying he can only power attack of 6? ludicious... And my saying you could say you could get a +7 (with +6/+1) is a loose reading of If a character has more than one class, the base attack bonuses for each class are cumulative. and then moving to p.59 where it says the resulting value of +6 or higher provides the character with multiple attacks.. Just like anything a creature that uses a weapon can make a natural attack at -5 (ie Minotaur with its horns) So a Minotaur would then be (+6/+1/(+1 horns if attacking with weapon or +6 with just the horns) and all power attack bonuses and minuses apply to each... Now back to the +7.. I said you could say this.. and it doesn't make it too powerful.. would I allow it.. yes at 7th level.. Your highest bonus is your BAB.. but I do see the logic of saying 7..
Darth_Azalin 02-20-06, 09:43 AM	You get both of your attacks because Power Attack doesn't affect your Base Attack Bonus. It applies to your total attack bonus just like everything else. It's limited by your BAB, but that doesn't mean it's subtracting from it. There's only two things in this game that ever alter your actual BAB: Gaining a level. Losing a level. That's it. (and if you've got average or poor BAB, even that doesn't do it sometimes). A character with a BAB of +6/+1 using Power Attack does not lose his second attack, nor does a character with a BAB of +5 and Weapon Focus gain a second attack. BAB is a completely separate and constant bonus to which other things are added to determine your total attack bonus in a given situation. Secondly, your BAB isn't really "+6/+1". It's just +6. The extra attacks are just a function of this number and are included on the tables for convenience. Ok.. thats confusing.. your +6/+1 Power attacker taking a penalty of 6 for a bonus of 6 or 12 applies it too both attack die.. So in this case (+0/-5) just because your a Negative to hit doesnt mean you lose the attack... (look at low strength)
Tyler Do'Urden 02-20-06, 09:43 AM	Darth Azalin...the character described in the first post had a base attack bonus of +6. The character described cannot Power Attack for more than 6 points. A BAB of +6/+1 is not a BAB of +7, so a character with a BAB of +6/+1 [b]cannot[/i] Power Attack for 7 points. He wasn't implying in any way that the absolute limit of Power Attack for all characters was 6. Try reading it, please. And stop posting so damn fast. It's not a chat room. Your BAB is a constant number. Once you have your BAB, calculate your total attack bonus, and write it down on your character sheet. If something happens to change your total attack bonus (like you using Power Attack), do the math on scrap paper and write down your new bonus. You've got a BAB of +11, a Strength of 18, and a +3 greatsword. So your total attack bonus is +18/+13/+8. You Power Attack for 10, you subtract 10 from all your attacks so you're attacking at +8/+3/-2, and add 20 to your damage because you're using a two-handed weapon. Simple.
DrMorganes 02-20-06, 09:58 AM	Thanks, Tyler, for the clarification. I'm still trying to puzzle through his response to my post...
Darth_Azalin 02-20-06, 10:01 AM	Posting fast? huh? you must have a slow computer... Anyways that is what I said it applies to all.. and with the +6/+1 BAB your saying that your BAB is only 6 is well wrong.. just look at the heading on the table of any of the class levels.. you will see the title of Base Attack Bonus and then multiple numbers pass it... Since your base attack bonus for the first attempt is good and then the second is average and then the third is poor... Ok what is worst than poor? So there isn't anything stating in any book that if your +6/+1 you can only take 6 as a penalty.. since you do have another attack bonus... Now that is a loose ruling.. would it be popular.. depends... My 4th lvl Fighter - Minotaur always power attacks for 4.. Since its +6 strength + 4 BAB + 1 WF + 1 enchancement -2 monkey grip (+10 to hit) and I do 3d6+18 damage and then I use my horns +10 normally (if no other attack or +5 with another attack) then -4 for power attack and its +1 to hit and does d6+10 damage (since natural weapons are light and dont get double bonus) (thats unless I would charge than the Gore/Headbutt damage dice would be 2d6+13 (normally its +9) and just to let you know.. this guy is LA +0 (got to love Dragonlance)
Tyler Do'Urden 02-20-06, 10:04 AM	Posting fast? huh? you must have a slow computer...No, I just like to take my time to make sure I'm not making mistakes, misinterpreting rules, glossing over typos, things like that. Anyways that is what I said it applies to all.. and with the +6/+1 BAB your saying that your BAB is only 6 is well wrong..No it isn't. Go read the book again. I'm not being sarcastic either. I'm instructing you to go back to your PHB (assuming you have one), and open it to p. 22 and read the entire paragraph explaining what BAB is and how BAB works. Seriously. Go.
Darth_Azalin 02-20-06, 10:19 AM	Did.. and thats why I said you could agrue 7 "Numbers after a slash indicate additional attacks at reduced bonuses: "12/7/2" means 3 attacks/roundm with an attack bonus of +12 for the first attack, +7 for the second, and +2 for the third. Any modifers on attack rolls apply to all these attacks normally, but bonuses do not grant extra attacks. So under that listing.. you have a +12 BAB for your first, +7 for the second and +2 for the third.. Now lets look at power attack... you can subtract any number as long as it doesn't succed your attack bonus and you apply it until your next turn.. So by your saying 12/7/2 and using strict reading of the text.. the highest you can power attack is 2 because thats the most you can subtract since you can't take away more.. Then you say you can take 12 since its the first number.. but read power attack.. that shoots you down.. (again strict reading of text).. Your actual bonus is 12 first attack 7 for the next and 2 for the third.. is 21.. would you actually power attack for 21? no you would probably never hit anything... But under the reading of the text on 22.. (colored in red - you could make a play that 21 is what you could use..)
Tyler Do'Urden 02-20-06, 10:21 AM	No you do not. You have a base attack bonus of +12. Period. This BAB grants you two extra attacks: one at a -5, and one at a -10. That's it. Everything on those tables is just that math done for you. Go read it again. Actually read it. Slowly. Comprehend. I mean you're just being deliberately obtuse at this point.
CryoSilver 02-20-06, 10:24 AM	So are you saying that a level 20 Frenzied Berserker could deduct 50 from his attack roll and add 200 to his damage? Seems a bit suspect to me. No, Darth, you're wrong. Very, very wrong. My proof? The ELH states that a character can never have a base attack bonus higher than 20. 21 is bigger than 20, whereupon the entire system falls apart.
Zherog 02-20-06, 10:26 AM	You're completely wrong, Darth. When effects in the game refer to your "Base Attack Bonus" they are referring to the highest number, not the sum of the numbers. Since your base attack bonus for the first attempt is good and then the second is average and then the third is poor... Ok what is worst than poor? craptastic! :D
Darth_Azalin 02-20-06, 10:29 AM	As the text from p.22 is put in "text" you would see it clearly states and reads bonus of 12 for the first attack, 7 for the second and 2 for the third.. You cant agrue RAW on that.. it actually says attack bonus and gives number... And those numbers are with just 1 weapon.. it gets even more difficult with 2 weapon and improved 2 weapon and even eagle claw... Now if it says your attack bonus is 12.. and you get a second at -5 and a third at -10 then you would have something to stand behind.. but since it actually uses ATTACK BONUS.. as the text.. you can't.. and then to say read p22. where it states 12 bonus then 7 bonus and then 2 bonus.. and then go to power attack .. and your strict reading of the text would then apply only a power attack of 2 since thats the lowest bonus you can take away from.. since power attack states this.. (meaning - you can't have your cake and eat it too).. you can't use one text and then use implies or assuming to skate pass the second.. By RAW.. it gives me a bonus of 12 then a bonus of 7 and a bonus of 2.. nothing states that I can't or are prohibited on adding them up for the bases of power attack... As I said would I in the first post example power attack for 7.. probably not.. but could I agrue I could.. yes..
Darth_Azalin 02-20-06, 10:32 AM	You're completely wrong, Darth. When effects in the game refer to your "Base Attack Bonus" they are referring to the highest number, not the sum of the numbers. craptastic! :D Ok Zherog.. where in which publication.. does it say that.. that it only refers to your highest number? No where (not even in the glossary of the PHB).. Now CryoSilver did point out that in the ELH it says no BAB could be higher than 20.. I can tend to say thats wrong.. Look at Deities and Demi-gods.. And the ELH isnt really core.. its optional so you can't really use that as a defense..
Tyler Do'Urden 02-20-06, 10:44 AM	I give up. You've crossed the brink into stupidly defensive and nobody can save you now. Later.
Darth_Azalin 02-20-06, 10:47 AM	Because all the books and millions of pages of text and rules.. no where in WoTC published material supports your ruling... and discredits mine.. so you take your ball and go home.. very adult..
Dragonteuthis 02-20-06, 10:53 AM	Tyler, you are to be commended for trying so hard. I would have given up long ago.
Zherog 02-20-06, 11:07 AM	Here's a few quotes from the FAQ. I'm using the version released on Jan 26, 06. A base attack bonus of +15 gives three attacks at +15/+10/+5. An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry). The example character has a base attack bonus of +6; with the Rapid Shot and Manyshot feats, the character has the following options: • Fire one arrow as a standard action (at +6). • Fire two arrows as a standard action (at +2—the second printing of the Epic Level Handbook says the penalty for Manyshot is –4, not –2 as stated in the first printing). • Fire two arrows as a full-round action (+6/+1). • Fire three arrows as a full-round action (+4/+4/–1, with Rapid Shot) But these are probably the best ones... When you normally get to make more than one attack a round, and you are wielding two weapons, do you get to add your full base attack bonus on one attack or both? Would a 6th-level fighter count the +6 base attack bonus for the first attack and the +1 for the second? Would you get +6 on both the first two attacks and a +1 on the third and fourth? Your full base attack bonus applies on the first attack you make with each hand. In the case of a 6th-level fighter wielding two weapons, he uses his full +6 base attack bonus on the first attack with his primary hand and on the first attack with his off hand. His second attack with his primary hand has a base attack bonus of +1, and if he has a second attack with his off hand (for example, if he has Improved Two-Weapon Fighting), it also has a base attack bonus of +1. What happens when a monster has a high base attack bonus, and it uses a manufactured weapon along with a secondary natural weaponry? For instance, suppose a 5th level lizardfolk fighter wields a battleaxe. What would this creature’s attack routine be? Just add the natural secondary attacks to whatever manufactured attacks the creature can normally make. Assuming that the example character has five fighter levels, she has a base attack bonus of +6 (+1 for being a lizard folk, +5 for fighter levels). Assuming the character doesn’t use a shield, she has two natural secondary attacks available—her bite and her free claw. There’s a –5 penalty when using a natural secondary weapons. So, when the character uses the full attack action, her attack routine is +6/+1 melee (battleaxe)/+1 melee (bite)/+1 melee (claw). However, if the example character were using the standard attack action instead, she could make only one attack. This single attack could be a +6 if she used the manufactured weapon or a claw (a lizard folk’s claws are the primary natural weapon), or +1 if the character chooses to bite. You always take the secondary weapon penalty when you use a secondary natural weapon (see the Monster Manual glossary). My first several quotes are parts of answers to other questions. The questions themselves aren't really pertinent to this discussion, but I gave page numbers so you can look at it for yourself to verify that. The last two, however, are complete question-and-answer. Take a look at that last one. The Lizardfolk fighter doesn't have a BAB of +7; she has a BAB of +6.
BloodBought 02-20-06, 11:08 AM	Actually the point they're trying to make Darth is that the quote you're using to justify your position doesn't say Base Attack Bonus. Just Attack Bonus. Numbers after a slash indicate additional attacks at reduced bonuses: "12/7/2" means 3 attacks/roundm with an attack bonus of +12 for the first attack, +7 for the second, and +2 for the third. Any modifers on attack rolls apply to all these attacks normally, but bonuses do not grant extra attacks The actual BAB for any character simply means the highest of the attack bonuses you get from your classes. The numbers give for additional attacks are simply attack bonuses since they have been modified from the actual BAB (in your example, +12). The SRD specifically states that these extra attacks are solely derived from the value of the BAB. Base Attack Bonus: Add the base attack bonuses acquired for each class to get the character's base attack bonus. A resulting value of +6 or higher provides the character with multiple attacks. Even though the formula may not be spelled out explicitly, it can easily be interpreted that that formula works as follows. The first extra attack can be made at a -5 from your BAB, second at a -10 from BAB, and third at a -15 from BAB. Also, to refute your earlier argument about Power Attack. Here is the text from the feat. Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. So by reading this feat, it is easy to see why all of the reasoning that the extra attacks aren't granting you additional BAB since when you use PA, the penalty you take applies to EVERY attack you make until your next turn. This makes it easy to see that the additional attacks aren't additional BAB, but rather attack bonuses based off of the original BAB.
Father Dale 02-20-06, 02:38 PM	This thread gets the award for Most Confusing Discussion on the Simplest Concept. In the words of the great Vizzini, INCONCEIVABLE!
JadeSpider9643 02-20-06, 03:07 PM	Darth_Azalin, judging from your inability to read and comprehend some very basic rules text, and the way you slauter English grammar in your posts, I can only assume that English is not your first language. I don't know if such a thing exists, but I would strongly suggest finding a PHB translated into your native language, or having someone with a stronger grasp of the English language explain the sentence structure of the relevant rules to you in your native language. If I'm mistaken, then just nevermind, your hopeless. Cookie to tyler for the effort. :cookie:
Zherog 02-20-06, 04:11 PM	So... I post quotes from the FAQ, and Tyler gets a cookie? Harumph! :ahem: :P :P :P
Tyler Do'Urden 02-20-06, 04:21 PM	I don't want my cookie. Somebody already bit it. :cookie:
Ozymandias V. 02-20-06, 04:28 PM	I give up. You've crossed the brink into stupidly defensive and nobody can save you now. Later. *seconded*
Vestigial_Thumb 02-20-06, 04:41 PM	Since Darth hasn't posted here in quite a while, I'm starting to think you shut him up. Or killed him :shifty: dun dun DUN!
Tyler Do'Urden 02-20-06, 05:28 PM	Since Darth hasn't posted here in quite a while, I'm starting to think you shut him up. Or killed him :shifty: dun dun DUN! ... :censored: bit my cookie. What was I supposed to do, sit back and take it?
Vestigial_Thumb 02-20-06, 06:49 PM	... :censored: bit my cookie. What was I supposed to do, sit back and take it? I did kinda expect this... Well done, baby! :cheer:
fatal error 02-20-06, 07:22 PM	I love how he doesn't even come back to post a salute to Zherog for soundly defeating him in the battle of the BABs. I mean, what poor sportsmanship for a debater...
Zherog 02-20-06, 08:29 PM	Geez. It hasn't even been a day. Heck, I'm not even sure it's been 12 hours. He could have work or school or any of a gazillion other things. And just because he's wrong doesn't mean everybody has to be a dick about it.
Darth_Azalin 02-21-06, 08:25 AM	No its all cool.. had class (specialized insurance claims if you wanted to know).. actually getting ready to go again... All I was getting at is even if you look at the class graphs (it says BAB bonus for each class.. as in this.. 12th fighter 12/7/2 now since it says on the table its BAB and not attack bonuses.. I was saying you could then add..) Thats all.. Since they did say.. that tables are second and text is first.. Hence Weapon finesse.. table says have to pick 1 weapon.. and the text says any Light plus rapier and spike chain of your size... And if you notice only in the beginning p.22 does it talk about BAB.. and FAQs aren't rules they are 1 persons explainations.. now Errata's change rules.. Would I let our 6th lvl toon.. have +7 ... nope and I said that almost every post.. but without an Errata there isn't anything saying you couldn't.. Since FAQs don't count..
Lord Lorac Silvanos 02-21-06, 08:50 AM	Did you actually read on page 22? "... a +6 base attack bonus would grant an additional attack at +1, ..."
YabaTheWhat 02-21-06, 08:53 AM	Did.. and thats why I said you could agrue 7 "Numbers after a slash indicate additional attacks at reduced bonuses: "12/7/2" means 3 attacks/roundm with an base attack bonus of +12 for the first attack, +7 for the second, and +2 for the third. Any modifers on attack rolls apply to all these attacks normally, but bonuses do not grant extra attacks. So under that listing.. you have a +12 BAB for your first, +7 for the second and +2 for the third.. I think I found the problem. Or at least part of it. The fact remains that someone with a BAB of +6 can't use power attack to get -7/+7, because they only have +6 to work with.
Rhomphaia 02-21-06, 01:33 PM	Okay, Darth Azalin, here is my take on it. First, to tackle your FAQ vs eratta viewpoint. When it comes to basic game mechanics, I think the people who write the FAQ (who just happen to be the designers of the game) happen to know what they are talking about in terms of said game mechanics. Other issues are debatable, but basic game mechanics is not. To dismiss the FAQ out of hand on such issues to me says you are doing so simply because it does not support your argument. However, if you want an argument that is RAW and has nothing to do with FAQ or eratta, here you go. Try to follow me if you can. The character in question would only have a +6 base attack bonus. The reason is this. For purposes of your argument, allowing the bonus to be put into Power Attack, it all has to be Base Attack bonus. However, you are adding two numbers, +6 and +1. This says you are trying to stack two NAMED bonuses. Wrong. Things don't work that way. Bonuses or penalties of the same type do not stack. End of story. Trying to add +6 base attack bonus and +1 base attack bonus so you can get 7 out of your power attack is (mechanically) exactly like trying to wear a chain shirt and a pair of +1 bracers of armor to get both bonuses to AC. Doesn't work. Your argument holds absolutely no weight. As everyone and their grandmother has been trying to tell you. The character has a +6/+1 base attack bonus, not +7.
fatal error 02-21-06, 01:54 PM	My most sincerest apologies, Darth Azalin. I should have checked the post times prior to posting such a remark. I was under the impression a longer span of time had passed.
jaelis 02-21-06, 02:41 PM	Since I don't believe this has been brought up yet, here's the glossary entry on Base Attack Bonus An attack roll bonus derived from character class and level. Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes. A character gains a second attack when his or her base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different classes, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack. This seems to pretty clearly indicate that your BAB is a single bonus, and that your iterative attack bonuses are based off of it, not somehow a part of it. I pulled that from the website, but I'm pretty sure it says the same thing in the PHB.
Darth_Azalin 02-21-06, 09:27 PM	Rhomphaia First off the FAQs are mainly from Sage Advice and which is Paizo Publishing (as even the email that you send them too tells you) it has nothing to do with a developer... Bonuses or penalties of the same type do not stack. End of story. Trying to add +6 base attack bonus and +1 base attack bonus so you can get 7 out of your power attack is (mechanically) exactly like trying to wear a chain shirt and a pair of +1 bracers of armor to get both bonuses to AC. Doesn't work. Ok but that same person can have Chain shirt (+4) shield (+1) Dex (+3) Natural Armor (+2) Deflection ie ring of protection (+1) all to get bonuses to AC.. because of the what they are.. Nice work on the same bonuses dont stack.. (like I said I wouldn't allow the +7 but I do see how it could be agured) Now look at this and every other class.. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm Notice it says Base Attack Bonus and not Attack Bonus... Just to point something out... fatal error No harm No Foul...
Crucifer 02-22-06, 07:18 AM	Darth, Power Attack [General] Prerequisite Str 13. Benefit "On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn." Note that it says the number cannot exceed your base attack bonus. Thus a character with +12/+7/+2 can only subtract up to 12 points via power attack because that's his base attack bonus. His second and third attacks are derived from his base attack bonus, not in addition. Base Attack Bonus "A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack." Thus, the BAB only refers to the primary attack.
Darth_Azalin 02-22-06, 07:38 AM	Darth, Power Attack [General] Prerequisite Str 13. Benefit "On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn." Note that it says the number cannot exceed your base attack bonus. Thus a character with +12/+7/+2 can only subtract up to 12 points via power attack because that's his base attack bonus. His second and third attacks are derived from his base attack bonus, not in addition. Base Attack Bonus "A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack." Thus, the BAB only refers to the primary attack. With the 12/7/2 - your saying his bab is only 12.. well EVERY class has the same table that states what the BAB is.. and you see for 12th its 12/7/2 all bab .. now if that table would of said Attack bonuses.. I would say your completely right.. with the addition of saying Base Attack Bonus theres no reason that you could add them... now you said about BAB (p22 of phb) if you notice it states that when the BAB is +6 you gain another attack at +X.. Yes at that time I dont think it reads you gain a base attack bonus of +X.. But with every printing edition of the PHB and every other book.. why do they insist that you see BAB on the chart.. when all they have to do is take off Base and make it Attack bonuses..
Zherog 02-22-06, 08:26 AM	First off the FAQs are mainly from Sage Advice and which is Paizo Publishing (as even the email that you send them too tells you) it has nothing to do with a developer... Just a few points of reference. First and foremost, Sage Advice is written by Andy Collins, who is indeed an on-staff Developer for WotC. On top of that, while Paizo publishes Dragon (and Dungeon), WotC has approval rights on everything that appears in the magazines. Prior to the magazines being published, they're sent to the WotC offices for their approval, and for them to make any changes to anything they want. Finally, Dragon (and Dungeon) are both still owned by WotC; they have a licensing agreement set up with Paizo to allow Paizo to publish the magazines.
Crucifer 02-22-06, 08:30 AM	Ok I see your point. You're arguing that because it says "Base Attack Bonus" on the chart, it means that all the attacks are considered as a "Base Attack Bonus". Sadly, you're wrong. The description of the Base Attack Bonus clearly demonstrates this. Note how in the phrase below: "Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher." the phrase BAB is only applied to the primary attack... As for your comment: "Why do they insist that you see BAB on the chart.. when all they have to do is take off Base and make it Attack bonuses.." It's obviously meant to be a reminder to the less intelligent people out there how the BAB system works - in much the same way that THAC0 worked in 2nd Edition. As I recall, everyone can work out their To Hit rolls from THAC0 but they still printed class attack rolls IIFC.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 02-22-06, 08:32 AM	now you said about BAB (p22 of phb) if you notice it states that when the BAB is +6 you gain another attack at +X.. Yes at that time I dont think it reads you gain a base attack bonus of +X.. But with every printing edition of the PHB and every other book.. why do they insist that you see BAB on the chart.. when all they have to do is take off Base and make it Attack bonuses.. Because the tables shows the BAB with the added benefit of also showing iterative attacks. The attack bonus is all* modifiers to the attack roll: Melee weapon: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier + other modifiers Ranged weapon: Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty + other modifiers I think the tables was made like that to make them easier to use. In addition to page 22, the example on page 59 of PHB under Base Attack Bonus also show that only the first number is the BAB. *: There may be other modifiers to the attack roll.
Romanus_Mortus 02-22-06, 09:19 AM	Okay Darth, let's try this thought exercise: If a product label says: caloric value "total calories: 250" "calories from fat: 50" "calories from carbohydrates: 200" does that mean the product has 500 calories? No Similarly, when that table says "Base Attack Bonuses", and lists something like "+15/+10/+5" That's the mathematical equivalent of saying base attack bonus "total bonus: +15" "after first attack: +10" "after second attack: +5" Just as the delicious fatty product above does not have 500 calories, neither does a level 15 fighter have a BAB of +30. In your defense, you keep mentioning that "you woud never allow it" and you "simply see how it could be argued". Since you've already maneuvered yourself out of a position of having to admit defeat and accept the anonymous shame of having made a mistake on these boards (lord knows I have, and have been reamed accordingly), then just admit that someone who argued it would still be wrong. You've denegrated yourself to playing devil's advocate for a fictional idiot whom you yourself admit would actually be wrong. So save us all the trouble and just say, "thanks all, it's really clear now". :D ps - it'd be nice to mention Tyler and Zherog by name if you do, they've worked hardest here
Romanus_Mortus 02-22-06, 10:36 AM	just one more thing to add (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_baseattackbonus&alpha=) base attack bonus An attack roll bonus derived from character class and level. Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes. A character gains a second attack when his or her base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different classes, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack. Source: PHB Note it does not say that a character gains a second BAB, only a second attack. Hopefully if my little thought exercise didn't clear things up, this should. Maybe. Perhaps....okay, I'm not hopeful, but we'll see...