Bashing Shield Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bashing Shield Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bondious
03-30-06, 02:15 PM Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. (Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.)
Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull’s strength; Price +1 bonus.

I'm DMing a game and one of my players wants to make a +1 Bashing Heavy Shield that also has the Flaming property. I'm assuming this is legal, since it says (somewhere) that you can enchant a shield as a magic weapon. I have a couple of questions, though:

1) A +1 Bashing shield is a +2 armor market bonus, and is treated as a +1 shield (weapon). Does my player have to spend an extra 8,000gp to make it a +1 Flaming (+2 weapon market bonus), or does the "acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash" count as the weapon already being a +1 weapon, and the player need only spend 6,000gp?

2) If you enchant a shield as a weapon, does the pricing work under two columns, with the armor enhancements being one column and the weapon enhancements being the other?

I have an example, from page 138 of the Magic of Faerūn, the Shield of Vigilance which is a +1 Bashing Shock Large Steel Shield, with a price of 9,170gp.

[Breakdown: 170gp for the masterwork large shield component, and I’m assuming 9,000gp for a +3 armor market bonus for +1, Bashing and Shock]

Using that breakdown, I would assume that if you added weapon enhancements to a Bashing shield, then those weapon enhancements might fall under the “armor column”. Now I KNOW that it is 3.0 edition, but it’s the only precedent I can find, so I thought I’d throw it out there.

Any help in this (via FAQ, common agreement of this subject, facts that completely show I’m wrong, etc) is welcome.

Thanks. :D
dvlsadvct
03-30-06, 02:18 PM IIRC only shields with spikes on them can be enchanted as weapons.

Edit: Ah, I stand corrected.
Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description). A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
Xaxor
03-30-06, 02:21 PM PHB 125 disagrees. You can enchant a normal heavy or light shield as a weapon that does bludgeoning, but you have to pay for it seperately.
bondious
03-30-06, 02:22 PM IIRC only shields with spikes on them can be enchanted as weapons.

Thank you for the quick (almost TOO QUICK) response.

Do you, by any chance, know where I could find this info myself? My players like to have all info "in writing".

I know about the shield spikes being treated seperately from the shield itself, as far as enchantment goes, but I could have SWORN I read somewhere that a regular shield could be enchanted as a weapon...I think on these boards, maybe. I don't know.

Again, thank you.

[Edit: I see, thank you. I'm still wondering, though, about the question of whether that Bashing property is considered the +1 weapon enhancement, or do you have to buy that +1 weapon enhancement seperately?]
jaelis
03-30-06, 02:34 PM Surely by RAW, the weapon enhancements and armor enhancements are simply separate things. So a shield with total enhancements of +1 (attack) flaming, +1 (defense) bashing would be a +2 weapon (8000 gp) and a +2 shield (4000 gp) and would cost 12000 gp. Since the attack bonuses from bashing and the weapon enhancement are both enhancement bonuses, they wouldn't stack.

You could do as you suggest and let the bashing abilty count as the required +1 attack enhancement. I probably wouldn't do that though. At high levels, it would make shields considerably cheaper weapons than real weapons. Consider a +5 holy speed weapon: cost is 200000 gp. But a shield with
+4 attack enhancement, holy, keen and +1 armor bonus and bashing would only be 162000 + 4000 = 168000 gp.

Edit- that's probably not what you meant though. You don't have the actually bonuses stacking. Even so, you could conceivably get +10 worth of special abilities for the price of +9. I don't know if that would come up often enough to worry about.
dvlsadvct
03-30-06, 02:45 PM I agree with Jaelis. Add up the enhancements seperately. Just make sure that the total doesnt get any higher than 10.

I.E. +1(shield enhance) bashing, +4(weapon enhance) flaming, frost, shock, thundering heavy shield.
bondious
03-30-06, 02:49 PM You guys are probably right.

I was, at first, thinking that it would be a waste of money to buy both the Bashing AND a +1 weapon enhancement. After thinking about it, though, the Bashing doesn't only enable the shield to be treated like a +1 weapon, but it ALSO boosts the damage up by 2 damage dice, so even if the +1 weapon abilities overlap it would STILL increase the damage.

Good deal, thanks for all the help! :D

I'm still wondering, though, wouldn't you then have two columns for the shield, one for armor and the other for weapon, both having the capacity for a +10 market bonus in their respective columns?
aelryinth
03-30-06, 02:49 PM Actually the iconic weapon/shield is a spiked +4, +5 Defender, for a minimum +12 AC bonus, and 5 pts of it is touch ac when defender is active. Bashing, while making it a nice weapon, doesn't max the defensive power of a shield.

==Aelryinth
jaelis
03-30-06, 03:05 PM I'm still wondering, though, wouldn't you then have two columns for the shield, one for armor and the other for weapon, both having the capacity for a +10 market bonus in their respective columns?

Yep. Most expensive non-epic item there is, I believe. Though you could do a very similar thing with armor and armor spikes.
tarkin
03-30-06, 03:07 PM As per the FAQ entry, bashing may not be used when you are using a spiked shield.

Bashing applies to the shield, which is not doing the bashing if you are using a spiked shield.

You could however, get a non-spiked shield enchanted as +1 (AC) Bashing [Cost: 4,000 gp], then get it enchanted as +1 (weapon) Flaming [Cost: 8,000 gp]. Net cost is 12,000 gp.

I don't consider it to be worth it.
dvlsadvct
03-30-06, 03:20 PM I took the exerpt from the SRD as posted above as that you could only have a total +10 enhancement regardless of where you spent your money. So in effect you combine the abilities but pay for them respectively. Not including shield spikes.
jaelis
03-30-06, 03:46 PM Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description). A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

I believe that the bolded line refers to just the defensive enhancements, and that the attack enhancements are separate. Since it is in a separate paragraph and all.
bondious
03-30-06, 03:57 PM I believe that the bolded line refers to just the defensive enhancements, and that the attack enhancements are separate. Since it is in a separate paragraph and all.

So you could have, say, a +5 Bashing Arrow Deflecting Spell Resistance (13) Heavy Shield (+10 armor market bonus) that is also enchanted as a +5 Speed Defending Merciful weapon (+10 weapon market bonus)? Just the shield, without shield spikes?

That's what I'm thinking.

Damn, that would be expensive!
aelryinth
03-30-06, 06:54 PM Technically, yes, you could do this. Most DM's will House rule a total +10 limit, but even SKR agreed that, as typed, you could do +10 for both.

Also note, you can Bash with a spiked shield, but you have to do the Bludgeoning dmg, not the piercing (and thus gain no benefit from the spikes). This is a change...the two damages used to stack (see the shield for the Asuras in the Exalted Handbook and the stats for one if you don't believe me....3-14 + Flaming, best one handed weapon in the game!)

===Aelryinth

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bondious 03-30-06, 02:15 PM	Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. (Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.) Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull’s strength; Price +1 bonus. I'm DMing a game and one of my players wants to make a +1 Bashing Heavy Shield that also has the Flaming property. I'm assuming this is legal, since it says (somewhere) that you can enchant a shield as a magic weapon. I have a couple of questions, though: 1) A +1 Bashing shield is a +2 armor market bonus, and is treated as a +1 shield (weapon). Does my player have to spend an extra 8,000gp to make it a +1 Flaming (+2 weapon market bonus), or does the "acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash" count as the weapon already being a +1 weapon, and the player need only spend 6,000gp? 2) If you enchant a shield as a weapon, does the pricing work under two columns, with the armor enhancements being one column and the weapon enhancements being the other? I have an example, from page 138 of the Magic of Faerūn, the Shield of Vigilance which is a +1 Bashing Shock Large Steel Shield, with a price of 9,170gp. [Breakdown: 170gp for the masterwork large shield component, and I’m assuming 9,000gp for a +3 armor market bonus for +1, Bashing and Shock] Using that breakdown, I would assume that if you added weapon enhancements to a Bashing shield, then those weapon enhancements might fall under the “armor column”. Now I KNOW that it is 3.0 edition, but it’s the only precedent I can find, so I thought I’d throw it out there. Any help in this (via FAQ, common agreement of this subject, facts that completely show I’m wrong, etc) is welcome. Thanks. :D
dvlsadvct 03-30-06, 02:18 PM	IIRC only shields with spikes on them can be enchanted as weapons. Edit: Ah, I stand corrected. Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description). A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC. As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
Xaxor 03-30-06, 02:21 PM	PHB 125 disagrees. You can enchant a normal heavy or light shield as a weapon that does bludgeoning, but you have to pay for it seperately.
bondious 03-30-06, 02:22 PM	IIRC only shields with spikes on them can be enchanted as weapons. Thank you for the quick (almost TOO QUICK) response. Do you, by any chance, know where I could find this info myself? My players like to have all info "in writing". I know about the shield spikes being treated seperately from the shield itself, as far as enchantment goes, but I could have SWORN I read somewhere that a regular shield could be enchanted as a weapon...I think on these boards, maybe. I don't know. Again, thank you. [Edit: I see, thank you. I'm still wondering, though, about the question of whether that Bashing property is considered the +1 weapon enhancement, or do you have to buy that +1 weapon enhancement seperately?]
jaelis 03-30-06, 02:34 PM	Surely by RAW, the weapon enhancements and armor enhancements are simply separate things. So a shield with total enhancements of +1 (attack) flaming, +1 (defense) bashing would be a +2 weapon (8000 gp) and a +2 shield (4000 gp) and would cost 12000 gp. Since the attack bonuses from bashing and the weapon enhancement are both enhancement bonuses, they wouldn't stack. You could do as you suggest and let the bashing abilty count as the required +1 attack enhancement. I probably wouldn't do that though. At high levels, it would make shields considerably cheaper weapons than real weapons. Consider a +5 holy speed weapon: cost is 200000 gp. But a shield with +4 attack enhancement, holy, keen and +1 armor bonus and bashing would only be 162000 + 4000 = 168000 gp. Edit- that's probably not what you meant though. You don't have the actually bonuses stacking. Even so, you could conceivably get +10 worth of special abilities for the price of +9. I don't know if that would come up often enough to worry about.
dvlsadvct 03-30-06, 02:45 PM	I agree with Jaelis. Add up the enhancements seperately. Just make sure that the total doesnt get any higher than 10. I.E. +1(shield enhance) bashing, +4(weapon enhance) flaming, frost, shock, thundering heavy shield.
bondious 03-30-06, 02:49 PM	You guys are probably right. I was, at first, thinking that it would be a waste of money to buy both the Bashing AND a +1 weapon enhancement. After thinking about it, though, the Bashing doesn't only enable the shield to be treated like a +1 weapon, but it ALSO boosts the damage up by 2 damage dice, so even if the +1 weapon abilities overlap it would STILL increase the damage. Good deal, thanks for all the help! :D I'm still wondering, though, wouldn't you then have two columns for the shield, one for armor and the other for weapon, both having the capacity for a +10 market bonus in their respective columns?
aelryinth 03-30-06, 02:49 PM	Actually the iconic weapon/shield is a spiked +4, +5 Defender, for a minimum +12 AC bonus, and 5 pts of it is touch ac when defender is active. Bashing, while making it a nice weapon, doesn't max the defensive power of a shield. ==Aelryinth
jaelis 03-30-06, 03:05 PM	I'm still wondering, though, wouldn't you then have two columns for the shield, one for armor and the other for weapon, both having the capacity for a +10 market bonus in their respective columns? Yep. Most expensive non-epic item there is, I believe. Though you could do a very similar thing with armor and armor spikes.
tarkin 03-30-06, 03:07 PM	As per the FAQ entry, bashing may not be used when you are using a spiked shield. Bashing applies to the shield, which is not doing the bashing if you are using a spiked shield. You could however, get a non-spiked shield enchanted as +1 (AC) Bashing [Cost: 4,000 gp], then get it enchanted as +1 (weapon) Flaming [Cost: 8,000 gp]. Net cost is 12,000 gp. I don't consider it to be worth it.
dvlsadvct 03-30-06, 03:20 PM	I took the exerpt from the SRD as posted above as that you could only have a total +10 enhancement regardless of where you spent your money. So in effect you combine the abilities but pay for them respectively. Not including shield spikes.
jaelis 03-30-06, 03:46 PM	Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description). A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC. As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. I believe that the bolded line refers to just the defensive enhancements, and that the attack enhancements are separate. Since it is in a separate paragraph and all.
bondious 03-30-06, 03:57 PM	I believe that the bolded line refers to just the defensive enhancements, and that the attack enhancements are separate. Since it is in a separate paragraph and all. So you could have, say, a +5 Bashing Arrow Deflecting Spell Resistance (13) Heavy Shield (+10 armor market bonus) that is also enchanted as a +5 Speed Defending Merciful weapon (+10 weapon market bonus)? Just the shield, without shield spikes? That's what I'm thinking. Damn, that would be expensive!
aelryinth 03-30-06, 06:54 PM	Technically, yes, you could do this. Most DM's will House rule a total +10 limit, but even SKR agreed that, as typed, you could do +10 for both. Also note, you can Bash with a spiked shield, but you have to do the Bludgeoning dmg, not the piercing (and thus gain no benefit from the spikes). This is a change...the two damages used to stack (see the shield for the Asuras in the Exalted Handbook and the stats for one if you don't believe me....3-14 + Flaming, best one handed weapon in the game!) ===Aelryinth