Post/Author/DateTime	Post
supermonk7 01-09-06, 01:08 PM	Hello, everyone. Are there any rules for basket-hilted weapons in 3.5? If so, where are they located or what are they? Thanks in advance for the answers. Arminas tar Valantil Grand Master of the Ebon Rose
Rulebook 01-09-06, 01:57 PM	not really... but they'd just cost a few silver more to make than a normal weapon i'd assume. basket hilted broadsword: see entry for longsword
Vahenir 01-09-06, 02:06 PM	I think there are rules for that type of thing in a 3rd party product.. somewhere. I'd be hardpressed to recall which one, though. The easiest thing to do would be to houserule it. Maybe a +2 against being disarmed, costing an extra 100gp. Technically that's not the actual purpose of a basket hilt.. but D&D's rules are too vague to portray it's real life function.
Cannonballninja 01-09-06, 02:15 PM	Honestly, it's just part of the weapon. A lot of the 3.5 illustrations for rapiers and the elven weaponry (which all look more like sabers to me) have basket hilts. And even if you did want to add one there's no way on earth it'd cost the small fortune that is 100gp (if we were being realistic of course). Again though, I doubt having a basket hilt would affect the weapon in the slightest.
Vahenir 01-09-06, 02:59 PM	Honestly, it's just part of the weapon. A lot of the 3.5 illustrations for rapiers and the elven weaponry (which all look more like sabers to me) have basket hilts. A lot of the weapon illustrations also illustrate entirely different weapons than the stats pronounce. I have no doubt, though, that the designers probably envisioned some weapons with elaborate hilts (such as the rapier, which most people don't realize doesn't -have- to have any kind of elaborate hilt). But the poster wants a basket-hilt to serve a functional purpose in the game - so it doesn't matter what the designers figured an item would look like. And even if you did want to add one there's no way on earth it'd cost the small fortune that is 100gp (if we were being realistic of course). Again though, I doubt having a basket hilt would affect the weapon in the slightest. What would you pay for a no-questions-asked +2 against being disarmed? 50gp, maybe? It certainly shouldn't be cheap or everyone would do it.. then you'd have a whole lot of basket-hilted weapons all over the place. Again though, I doubt having a basket hilt would affect the weapon in the slightest. Realistically? There's no way to approximate the actual purpose of a basket-hilt in D&D. But if you absolutely want to have it DO something, then a bonus against being disarmed is the most logical choice.
RaspK FOG 01-09-06, 03:48 PM	A lot of the weapon illustrations also illustrate entirely different weapons than the stats pronounce.Like the rapier, the warhammer, the falchion... Right? :D I have no doubt, though, that the designers probably envisioned some weapons with elaborate hilts (such as the rapier, which most people don't realize doesn't -have- to have any kind of elaborate hilt). But the poster wants a basket-hilt to serve a functional purpose in the game - so it doesn't matter what the designers figured an item would look like.True. What would you pay for a no-questions-asked +2 against being disarmed? 50gp, maybe? It certainly shouldn't be cheap or everyone would do it.. then you'd have a whole lot of basket-hilted weapons all over the place.The locked gauntlet wouldn't help a lot, I'm afraid, but it's the only similar piece of equipment found in official material. Realistically? There's no way to approximate the actual purpose of a basket-hilt in D&D. But if you absolutely want to have it DO something, then a bonus against being disarmed is the most logical choice.Wouldn't it also include better protection for your hand, better ability to balance the weapon (wasn't it Strider who mentioned people placing their index for balance at the cross-section of blade and guard?) and the ability to throw a punch at your opponent? :D Yeah, better settle for a simple, yet logical +2 bonus...
Vahenir 01-16-06, 04:43 PM	Totally forgot about this thread, so forgive the late reply: The locked gauntlet wouldn't help a lot, I'm afraid, but it's the only similar piece of equipment found in official material. In my opinion the Locked Gauntlet is actually too good for its price. The fact that people rarely use it (as far as I know) is probably more of a flavour consideration since the concept is pretty stupid, and doesn't exactly look 'heroic.' Wouldn't it also include better protection for your hand, better ability to balance the weapon (wasn't it Strider who mentioned people placing their index for balance at the cross-section of blade and guard?) and the ability to throw a punch at your opponent? Haha, all true. But I think all weapons should allow a 'punch' attack, especially swords. Basket hilt, knuckle-bow, or just crossguard -- it's all going to hurt being slammed in your face. the OGL Conan rules have a listing for a 'pommel' attack. The balance isn't really accurate. Weapons do have to be balanced to take a basket hilt so that the weight of the hilt won't bring the balance of the sword back too far toward the hand... but the basket itself does not aid or damage balance. You can place your index finger over the guard on any sword for a more controlled thrust (and sometimes for a more controlled cut) - at least, any sword with a ricasso of some type. So that's also out. Protection for the hand is the real life reason that basket hilts existed -- if you look at history elaborate hilts were adopted only for swords that were intended to be used with a smaller amount of armour than had been common in earlier centuries, or on the battlefield. But in D&D that can only be represented by an AC bonus, and even a +1 AC is way too good for something that literally only protects part of one hand.
Cold Napalm 01-16-06, 05:30 PM	humm how about +1 ac vs the first attack of a choosen enemy? Or take -1 to hit for a +1 ac vs 1 opponent? Shurg...
Vahenir 01-16-06, 07:31 PM	+1 ac vs the first attack of a choosen enemy? Doesn't really seem sensible.. how does that jive with a basket-hilt? Or take -1 to hit for a +1 ac vs 1 opponent? Despite the penalty, that would still be too much like Dodge for my tastes. Like I said. .the real purpose of the basket is to protect the hand, but in D&D this is an incredibly negligible benefit, not even worthy of a conditional +1 AC. So we must find other reasonable uses for the item -- a bonus against being disarmed is fairly logical and works consistently with the game mechanics and concept behind them.
furor 01-16-06, 07:42 PM	My best approximation for a basket hilted weapon would be to make it masterwork (+1 bonus accounts for better balance and ability to thrust, and the price) and to allow a bash attack dealing 1d2 bludgeoning damage (1d4 piercing damage if completely unrealistic blades are incorporated). Protection from being disarmed is handled in a +1 bonus to all defensive actions.
RaspK FOG 01-16-06, 07:59 PM	My earlier comment regarding balance referred to the fact that you can use your finger in said manner with virtual impunity, unlike with a sword that has nothing more than a crossguard or quillons... Like I said. .the real purpose of the basket is to protect the hand, but in D&D this is an incredibly negligible benefit, not even worthy of a conditional +1 AC. So we must find other reasonable uses for the item -- a bonus against being disarmed is fairly logical and works consistently with the game mechanics and concept behind them. It could be helpful for those who use variant rules for called shots or critical hits, but that's an entirely different story! When I stated that the locked gauntlet may be our best aid, I was referring to its cost: it may well be used as a basis for a justified cost - half as much, maybe?
Rulebook 01-16-06, 08:07 PM	maybe give a basket hilt a +1 ac when fighting defensively or total defensive? make sure is a named bonus of some sort too. and/or a small bonus against disarm would be okay too. and/or let a punch with a basket hilt act like a gauntlet (leading to maybe spiked basket hilts? lol) but these things drive up the cost of adding a basket hilt for sure.
Vahenir 01-16-06, 08:11 PM	When I stated that the locked gauntlet may be our best aid, I was referring to its cost: it may well be used as a basis for a justified cost - half as much, maybe? The problem, in -my- opinion, with the locked gauntlet is that it is VASTLY underpriced. Less than 10gp for a +10 bonus against being disarmed. Where else in the game can you get a +10 circumstance bonus for a measely 10gp? For triple that price I'd only grant less than half of the bonus (24gp for a +4 bonus, maybe). My earlier comment regarding balance referred to the fact that you can use your finger in said manner with virtual impunity, unlike with a sword that has nothing more than a crossguard or quillons... The vast majority of swords have a type of ricasso, actually (all that is is a blunted portion of the blade beneath the guard). Surely in real life it is SAFER to finger the guard with a basket hilt than it is to do so without, but it was still fairly common-place. D&D doesn't really adequately cover this type of situation, unfortunately, unless you import hit location rules that are as specific as "finger." My best approximation for a basket hilted weapon would be to make it masterwork (+1 bonus accounts for better balance and ability to thrust, and the price) Masterwork? There's really nothing intrinsically masterwork about basket hilts. And they are NOT better balanced than any other type of sword. Also, they would only be -able- to thrust if the sword type was already capable of a thrust (which is most sword blades) so it's all moot, really. and to allow a bash attack This is something I feel all swords should (and in real life -are) capable of. That's actually the origin of the phrase "to pommel someone." +1 bonus to all defensive actions. "All defensive actions?" - Like what?
Vahenir 01-16-06, 08:16 PM	maybe give a basket hilt a +1 ac when fighting defensively or total defensive? I could live with this as well -- a good idea. Of course it still leaves the fact that, when not fighting defensively, it does nothing. Maybe +1 AC when fighting defensively.. covers the hand entirely (for those using called shots or Torn Asunder), and provides a +2 bonus against being disarmed. 80gp?
Cold Napalm 01-16-06, 10:07 PM	Humm how about a 5% chance of +1 ac? Then we can put a rather negligible price tag with it I think. Although a +1 to ac and disarm while in total defense sounds not too bad either.
BeyondFated 01-16-06, 11:33 PM	That's actually the origin of the phrase "to pommel someone." I've never actually heard that term, so I'll take your word for it...
Vahenir 01-17-06, 12:56 AM	I've never actually heard that term, so I'll take your word for it... ...? You've seriously never heard someone say "I'm going to pommel you!" or "They pommelled the crap out of that guy?" (Note that 'pommel' is often mispronounced in common vernacular as "pummel.") That's really strange considering it's a very common turn of phrase. Humm how about a 5% chance of +1 ac? 5% chance is hardly even worth spending money on, first of all. And second of all it's my opinion that percentiles should be avoided in anything you have to do regularly. That's really just my opinion, though.
Surreal 01-17-06, 01:48 AM	...? You've seriously never heard someone say "I'm going to pommel you!" or "They pommelled the crap out of that guy?" (Note that 'pommel' is often mispronounced in common vernacular as "pummel.") That's really strange considering it's a very common turn of phrase. I think as a verb, "pummel" is actually the proper spelling/pronounciation nowadays.
Chaser 01-17-06, 01:50 AM	Vahenir's disarm resistance is an excellent low impact choice for utility, but it doesn't fit the action flicks we play out on the table. With all respect to Vahenir, there is a 'cool' factor leading to a need or desire for baskethilts in many games. I look at it like this: Baskethilts allow someone to make a much less damaging [than the blade] yet lethal blunt attack against a foe. Baskethilts allow a style of fencing that can improve your defense. Both of these are easily represented in the game mechanics. Basket hilts allow a blunt attack around 2 die smaller than the main weapon, in the 1d2, 1d3, 1d4 range, depending on the actual weapon. Basket hilts provide a +1 shield bonus. These can be very powerful changes. Limiting might include: Baskethilt punch is non-lethal. Baskethilt enchantment is of the double weapon sort. Baskethilt defensive enhancements are separate from its offensive plusses. Baskethilt defensive enhancements are named shield bonuses, and thus do not stack with other shield bonuses [well this is more of a 'remember...'] Baskethilts are by and large decorative, or fashionable, but a masterwork baskethilt earns some or all of the abilities above. ************* Other ideas: Get a light spiked shield for your off hand and color it a main-gauche, or work with the spiked shield rules some. Make the feat Pommelstrike as you see fit, along the lines of above for any hilted weapon. [Vahenir is right of course, a baskethilt isn't necessary], but allow any masterworked baskethilted weapon to be used in this fashion if one is proficient in the base weapon. I hope this thread flies. Comments welcome.
Chaser 01-17-06, 01:55 AM	I think as a verb, "pummel" is actually the proper spelling/pronounciation nowadays. Easy online sources agree, but the etymology is clear, from pommel.
Vahenir 01-17-06, 02:47 AM	I think as a verb, "pummel" is actually the proper spelling/pronounciation nowadays. I was unclear. I actually meant that 'pommel' itself, even in reference to the sword-part, is often mispronounced. 'Pummel' is technically correct by modern standards - although even as a verb 'pommel' is also still correct. And since it isn't bastardized like 'pummel' is, makes it -more correct-. Just my opinion, of course - I think "pummel" is only acceptable as an escape from actually making people learn how to spell and pronounce words correctly. Mini-rant over. Basket hilts provide a +1 shield bonus. That's simply far too good, in my opinion. It's as good as a buckler - a buckler is an active defense, a large (by comparison) flat object intended to deflect and block attacks. The basket hilt is simply meant to protect the hand alone from injury. Assigning them the exact same utility, in my opinion, is gamebreakingly illogical. Basket hilts allow a blunt attack As I've already stated, I believe that all swords should be capable of this, with or without a basket-hilt. Striking with the guard or pommel of a sword is an extremely common combat maneuver that I don't think should be relegated to only basket-hilts.
bondious 01-17-06, 02:53 AM	I have some questions. 1. What size swords would you be able to put a basket hilt on? 2. I'm presuming that they'd have to be usable one-handed, but historically what kind of swords used them? 3. Without this becoming a big old debate about authenticity of D&D weapons vs. history, which D&D weapons would be good for a basket hilt? My thoughts are that I could only really see a rapier or scimitar/saber/cutlass with a basket hilt. A short or long sword, to me, would look funky, though I'm not as knowledgeable about this subject as I'd like to be, and don't want to make an ass outta my self by being too presumptuous. ;)
Vahenir 01-17-06, 03:55 AM	1. What size swords would you be able to put a basket hilt on? Technically.. any size swords. But in my experience the only baskets mounted on anything larger than a solely single-hand sword is more of a decorative item than what might have been intended to be a functional combat sword. On a two-hand sword a basket would almost assuredly get in the way of proper movements and grips. Short answer: Single-hand swords. 2. I'm presuming that they'd have to be usable one-handed, but historically what kind of swords used them? Depends on how we're defining "basket." If that means any complex hilt guard then mostly rapiers, Scottish claymores (the single-hand variety), Irish single-hand swords (roughly the same era as the claymores of Scotland, probably derived one from the other) and quite a few 16th-17th century arming swords in general. Complex hilts became pretty popular as armour started to come off more and more. The Schiavona is a popular basket-hilted mainland-European sword. As is the backsword. If you unclude knuckle-bows as "baskets" then sabers and cutlasses, as well as rapiers and other single-hand swords, also count. Complex hilts of many kinds were actually fairly popular in later ages - especially during the decline and discarding of full body armour. which D&D weapons would be good for a basket hilt? Many of them. Again, it really depends on what you consider a 'basket.' Some weapons would look REALLY funny with a Scottish claymore-style basket hilt. But if we're talking about any complex hilt that functions as a hand-guard of some type... Scimitars, longswords, shortswords, daggers, rapiers, single-hand axes, single-hand maces.. just off the top of my head. A short or long sword, to me, would look funky A longsword with a basket hilt would look like this (http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?reviews/ac_cupr_i.jpg), or this (http://www.deltin.it/5173.htm)/this (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/Swords%20and%20Knives/Schiavona.aspx), or possibly this (http://www.christianfletcher.com/Catalog/Swords/Atrim/VenetianSidesword/venetianside2.JPG). Three of the most popular kinds of "basket-hilted" swords in the world. But then.. you really have to define what you mean by "basket" - it can refer to a lot of different things, and for someone not used to sword terms it can refer to -any- kind of extended guard, like a knuckle-bow. So the question is.. what exactly do you mean by "basket-hilt?"
Lenarior 01-17-06, 04:14 AM	Acctually the cutlass presented in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has a basket-hilt giving it +2 against being disarmed. (Too my recolection that is)
Subedei 01-17-06, 04:26 AM	+1 flaming burst baskethilt on my +3 keen rapier of speed, I can just picture it now... :rofl:
Chaser 01-17-06, 05:45 AM	That's simply far too good, in my opinion. It's as good as a buckler - a buckler is an active defense, a large (by comparison) flat object intended to deflect and block attacks. The basket hilt is simply meant to protect the hand alone from injury. Assigning them the exact same utility, in my opinion, is gamebreakingly illogical. I started by mentioning you had a good balanced idea. Then I explained why it might not be enough for some. Next, I gave the basis for some additional ideas that might appeal to gamers and why. Then, gave some quick mechanics, and then even admitted that those might be too much, and suggested ways to balance those fun, cool , theatrical, cinematic, GAMING ideas. By merely exceeding, going beyond, your allowable ideas, we go straight to gamebreakingly illogical? When I am trying to allow for theatricality/ new ideas yet still call for a balance on it, how is that game-breakingly illogical? Did you read my whole post? For instance, why is charging 300 GP more for a usable baskethilt gamebreakingly illogical? You mention a problem you have with a 10GP locked gauntlet, a +10 adjustment, and 'balance', and this much more expensive idea merits no comment? And, the baskethilt is simply meant to protect the hand alone from injury, and this cannot possibly be seen as providing some AC bonus, at a possible balancing [not needed particularly IRL] cost of masterworking, because perhaps normal baskethilts [if every joe in the game could do it, they would] wouldn't be up to it? Of course in real life, a fair amount of your defense depends on actually maintaining a weapon in your hopefully-undamaged hand, so something that helps you do so could be reflected in the game. It could also be argued that a baskethilt enhances one's abilities to parry well, so a minor AC bump is a good idea. You mentioned such an idea but thought it too powerful. So, I made sure I mentioned some possible balancing ideas. As I've already stated, I believe that all swords should be capable of this, with or without a basket-hilt. Striking with the guard or pommel of a sword is an extremely common combat maneuver that I don't think should be relegated to only basket-hilts. As I stated, I agreed with you, in fact, anybody else reading this thread might realize I agreed with you, and then suggested a feat for it FOR ANY HILTED WEAPON, and then included another possible idea for the baskethilt with that? Make the feat Pommelstrike as you see fit, along the lines of above for any hilted weapon. [Vahenir is right of course, a baskethilt isn't necessary], but allow any masterworked baskethilted weapon to be used in this fashion if one is proficient in the base weapon. So how does a poster avoid the attitude with you, mate? You plainly know a good bit of what you speak, but I am interested in how that can merge with and expand the game and make for good play [and the educational value], and bit less interested in explaining how I am not arguing with you.
Chaser 01-17-06, 05:50 AM	+1 flaming burst baskethilt on my +3 keen rapier of speed, I can just picture it now... :rofl: Why ROFL? Have you looked at the Dire Flail? Which looks more like it has two usable weapon features to you? A Baskethilted sword, which actually used to be used to attack 'with two ends,' or the other? BTW, you could also choose +1 disrupting or holy baskethilt, for those undead immune to piercing, and enchant a shield bonus in there too, just to save weight.
Rulebook 01-17-06, 02:02 PM	haha, a +1 holy undead bane disrupting basket hilt... thats brilliant!
Vahenir 01-17-06, 02:37 PM	Then, gave some quick mechanics, and then even admitted that those might be too much, and suggested ways to balance those fun, cool , theatrical, cinematic, GAMING ideas. Yep. I never said you didn't do any of this. I said that I disagree with doing it, that's all. By merely exceeding, going beyond, your allowable ideas, we go straight to gamebreakingly illogical? Yes. For me. Hence the "in my opinion" right before that comment. When I am trying to allow for theatricality/ new ideas yet still call for a balance on it, how is that game-breakingly illogical? Did you read my whole post? For instance, why is charging 300 GP more for a usable baskethilt gamebreakingly illogical? You mention a problem you have with a 10GP locked gauntlet, a +10 adjustment, and 'balance', and this much more expensive idea merits no comment? My problem, and the simple reason I wouldn't use it is just that making an item specifically intended to protect the hand from receiving stray strikes into an item that functions similar to a buckler (a -shield- specifically intended for actively defending the wielder) messes with my suspension of disbelief. That's just one of my things. Hence, again, that being my opinion on it. and this cannot possibly be seen as providing some AC bonus Not to me, simply because .. look at what else provides a conditional +1 AC: Bucklers and Dodge. A basket won't do the job at protecting your life even a third as well as either of those. That's my contention. If bucklers and Dodge provided a +2 AC or more.. then I would probably say that a +1 is small enough to represent a basket's utility. It could also be argued that a baskethilt enhances one's abilities to parry well How is that? You don't parry with a basket, you deflect and make "attacks in opposition" with the blade, and usually with the lower two-thirds of the blade.. which is fully a third of the blade -away- from the basket. As I stated, I agreed with you, in fact, anybody else reading this thread might realize I agreed with you, and then suggested a feat for it FOR ANY HILTED WEAPON, and then included another possible idea for the baskethilt with that? I saw what you said. I only made the contention that, again -in my opinion- all swords should be innately capable of inflicting a pommel/guard strike and so I'd like to see it be a feature of all swords (ala OGL Conan), and so it wouldn't need to be a function of a basket-hilt anyway - since it would be redundant. So how does a poster avoid the attitude with you, mate? I really think you're putting an attitude into the post that was not there. I was only putting in my opinions and rationale for why I think a certain way or why I'd like to see something handled in one way rather than another. That's all. Any acidic tone you got from that was entirely of your making, but if something I said helped to foster that - my apologies.
bondious 01-17-06, 04:41 PM	But then.. you really have to define what you mean by "basket" - it can refer to a lot of different things, and for someone not used to sword terms it can refer to -any- kind of extended guard, like a knuckle-bow. So the question is.. what exactly do you mean by "basket-hilt?" What I mean by "basket-hilt" would be whatever anyone on this thread has been talking about. Nobody here (besides you, possibly) have really defined it. So, to me, any of the swords in those pictures you posted would serve as a starting point for what I might consider a "basket-hilt". My thinking is that, as has been stated many times in the past on many different threads, the D&D weapon's system is pretty vague. I think there's a thread going on having to do with Falchions, for instance, and there's a big old debate over there about what exactly it is, whether it is a straight blade or curved blade, one handed or two, etc. Another instance is how pretty much any sword in the book can be called any number of regional names. That's pretty much what I'm going for, here, a vague type of addition that can be considered an extended guard, a basket hilt, a knuckle-bow, etc. Scimitars, longswords, shortswords, daggers, rapiers, single-hand axes, single-hand maces.. just off the top of my head. So these items are a pretty good place to start. I ask because I like the idea, and will probably incorperate it into my games. I'll use the +2 to Disarms and treat it as either a gauntled or spiked gauntlet if used as a melee attack. Thank you for the pictures and ideas! :D
Vahenir 01-17-06, 05:00 PM	Double-Post.
Vahenir 01-17-06, 05:01 PM	I think there's a thread going on having to do with Falchions, for instance, and there's a big old debate over there about what exactly it is, That's not really the debate. A falchion absolutely refers to a single-hand cutting sword similar to a machete. The debate was more or less about whether or not the designers have the "right" (suffice to say) to so severely abuse the concept of correct terminology. Another instance is how pretty much any sword in the book can be called any number of regional names. Most of 'em, yeah. Or at least- their stats can function for a number of different items. It's worth noting that even in real life alterations can change the name of the weapon. A smallsword with a wider blade is called a spadroon. A really short rapier is called a smallsword (basically). A 'longsword' with a complex hilt can be a sidesword, sword-rapier, claymore, schiavona, or backsword - and in some circles, a "broadsword." A less modern-looking kukri is a kopis. A scimitar with a knuckle-bow could very well be a saber, but then, so could a scimitar without a knuckle-bow. If you really want to see how strange real naming conventions can be, consider this: A rapier, if made a bit wider, can be called a saber, as can a longsword made a bit thinner than normal - as sabers can be straight, despite common vernacular. That was totally off-topic, I know. That's pretty much what I'm going for, here, a vague type of addition that can be considered an extended guard, a basket hilt, a knuckle-bow, etc. Yeah, I figured that this thread, originally, was more concerned with any type of compound hilt, rather than what, in real life, is ACTUALLY called a "basket," since there are a wide variety of non-basket or partial-basket compound hilts out there. So these items are a pretty good place to start. I ask because I like the idea, and will probably incorperate it into my games. I'll use the +2 to Disarms and treat it as either a gauntled or spiked gauntlet if used as a melee attack. Works for me. Though you could also simply include an extra weapon entry: "Pommel/Guard" and give it damage like a gauntlet. The downside is that a pommel/guard would still count as whatever size the full weapon is, unlike a gauntlet which functions as a Light weapon no matter what. That's what I do, at least. Thank you for the pictures and ideas! You're welcome.
pres_man 01-18-06, 01:48 AM	Another option would be to allow off-hand basket swords to give 1 higher AC bonus when using two-weapon defense feats.