Bastard Sword Idea from the Conan RPG [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bastard Sword Idea from the Conan RPG [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rbingham2000
05-08-05, 06:26 AM In the weapons list in the Conan RPG, the War Sword, Conan's equivalent of the much-debated bastard sword, is finessable when used with two hands, but isn't when used with one hand.

This makes a certain amount of sense in my mind, because while the bastard sword is a bit heavier than your average longsword (and thus unwieldy enough to require a feat for one-handed use), it's a bit lighter than the greatsword, which definitely needs two hands to use normally and cannot be finessed under any circumstances whatsoever.

In addition, the war sword was also usable as a one-handed martial weapon while mounted, and you needed the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use it with two hands from your mount (with the finesse). This was the part about it that seemed just a little bit odd in my mind, though it also makes a bit of sense once I thought about it a bit, what with lances being considered one-handed when you're using them mounted.

I personally think this was a cool call on Mongoose's part, and I'd like to see how it would work in D&D.
DeadEye19
05-08-05, 07:26 AM My players will have hard time getting it... But there's something to it. Maybe making it martial, period, when mounted?
BTW, you got one funny signiture.
sir_argenon
05-08-05, 07:47 AM excuse me for my n00b-ness, but when you say "finessable" you mean youre able to use the weapon finesse Feat with it, right?

if so? then how is that possible? i thought weapon finesse had to be with a light weapon ???? :confused:
rbingham2000
05-08-05, 08:15 AM excuse me for my n00b-ness, but when you say "finessable" you mean youre able to use the weapon finesse Feat with it, right?
Correct.

if so? then how is that possible? i thought weapon finesse had to be with a light weapon ???? :confused:
The bastard sword is listed in the exotic weapons list as a one-handed weapon. The Conan RPG lists the broadsword, which is basically D&D's longsword adapted to the Conan-verse, as a finessable weapon when used in two hands (using the other hand on the pommel to guide the blade) though it's ostensibly a one-handed martial weapon. The reasoning behind this is fairly simple -- when you use a one-handed sword with two hands, you have a lot more control over the blade than when you're wielding it in one hand.

The fact that Mongoose didn't give axes the same treatment leads me to believe that this is mainly a sword thing. I think it's a pretty cool way to distinguish swords from axes in a manner other than crit multipliers. It only works with the straight blades, though, since I didn't see this done with scimitars.
rbingham2000
05-08-05, 08:51 AM My players will have hard time getting it... But there's something to it. Maybe making it martial, period, when mounted?
BTW, you got one funny signiture.
I had a tough time getting it at first too. I could understand why you needed special training to use the thing with one hand on foot, but I had a bit of trouble wrapping my head around why you needed special training to use the thing two-handed on a mount. I agree with your sentiment on making it martial, period, when you're on a mount.

Basically, when you're using the thing on a mount, what you're mainly doing is using the mount's momentum to drive your blows, much like you do with the lance when you charge. The picture that comes to mind is the Nazgul in Fellowship of the Ring taking that poor watchman's head off in the Shire with one pass of the blade as he rides past.

As for the sig, blame LosGunD for making me LMAO.
Vahenir
05-08-05, 12:30 PM So wait.. the bastard sword becomes finessable.. and a longsword still isn't? That's a stupid rule, if you ask me.

Oh well.. I like Mongoose, but their rules don't always make sense. But I think it's a step up anyway - I actually use Dex to attack rolls with all weapons as the default. But short of that - I think most weapons should be 'finessable." So it's a good rule, if you ask me.
Talmariel
05-08-05, 03:54 PM The Conan RPG lists the broadsword, which is basically D&D's longsword adapted to the Conan-verse, as a finessable weapon when used in two hands (using the other hand on the pommel to guide the blade) though it's ostensibly a one-handed martial weapon.

Vahenir, is that what you were talking about? ;)

It's definately one way to define the control issue with swords used in two hands. I couldn't really think of a better way to describe the control one has over a sword used in two hands, so I guess it works. It's very odd, since you'd need a second feat to get the benefit of the first at all, and even then you're spreading yourself out more because the biggest boon of using a weapon two-handed is the additional damage from your Strength modifier. All the same, I can't think of a better way to handle it.
Vahenir
05-08-05, 04:27 PM Ah yes.. whoopsy.

I still think that's rather lame. You hit with coordination.. only if you use two hands on a one-hand weapon? Makes very little sense to me.

Grab a 12th century arming sword.. put two hands on it. I guarantee your movements will be stiffer than the looser single-hand approach. But if it works - it works. Personally, I still prefer Dex to all attack rolls. But for most games, that will require other houserules to make it not overpowering for Dex.
Talmariel
05-08-05, 04:43 PM If I know what you mean by "arming sword," I've picked up swords of comparable weight and trained with them. Two hands always make a weapon easier to control than one. Just because it's interesting, and bears a passing relationship to the conversation, here's (http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html) an article about two-handed sword use. It's geared more for what would be called a greatsword in D&D, but I found it quite informative.

Edit: Caveat to my statement about two hands making weapons easier to control - it only applies when the weight of the weapon has any impact on its use. That is to say, something like a dagger is clearly not easier to manage two-handed.
Vahenir
05-08-05, 05:19 PM Arming sword refers to a single-hand sword.. what D&D calls a longsword.

Simple fact is, many arming swords (especially those used by the Nordic peoples) were -strictly- one-hand weapons. They -couldn't- be used in two, there was no room for an extra hand.

And even the ones with a -slightly- longer hilt to accomodate a second hand aren't necessarily better-controled with two hands.

You are partially correct - weight plays a big factor. But so does balance. A sword that's balanced close to the hilt will have almost no reason for a two-handed grip except for a heavier swing, as the control is meant to be conveyed into the hand. Which means that things like an arming sword -should- be finessable.

But again, that opinion is coloured by the fact that I believe Dex should always go to attack rolls - considering hitting someone is an act of coordination, not power.

(By the way, I've read pretty much every article on ARMA already. .haha.. I started going there back when it was The Haca.)
Johannixx
05-09-05, 12:31 AM Vahenir, in the Conan system, they have two one-handed, straight bladed swords: the arming sword and the broadsword. The arming sword is finesseable one-handed, while the broadsword is finesseable two-handed. The broadsword, however, has a higher armor-piercing rating (since Conan uses Armor-as-DR).

I really really like the Conan d20 system. I'm tempted to use it for all my d20 fantasy-type games, as I think the combat system is realistic without proving cumbersome.
Vahenir
05-09-05, 12:49 AM Oooh... cool then.

Thank you Johannixx.
Johannixx
05-09-05, 02:40 AM Oooh... cool then.

Thank you Johannixx.

As a fan of realistic swordplay, you owe it to yourself to pick up at least the pocket version of the rulebook. You'll never look at d20 the same again ;)
rbingham2000
05-09-05, 04:43 AM I have the pocket edition myself. Only thing they left out of it was the monsters, which means now I'll need to get my hands on the Atlantean Edition. :mad:
Johannixx
05-09-05, 10:49 AM I have the pocket edition myself. Only thing they left out of it was the monsters, which means now I'll need to get my hands on the Atlantean Edition. :mad:

I bought the original "Spellb.ook" edition, so I'm thinking of getting the pocket version just to have an updated, error-free copy of the ruleset ;)
Vahenir
05-09-05, 04:18 PM As a fan of realistic swordplay, you owe it to yourself to pick up at least the pocket version of the rulebook. You'll never look at d20 the same again

The regular rulebook was already on my list. I'll just have to bump it up higher on the list. Two books still come before it - I need to pick up Arcana Evolved (I may be running a Diamond Throne game, so I want Evolved - even though I already have Unearthed) and Iron Lore.

Then I'll go for the Conan RPG.
Johannixx
05-09-05, 07:34 PM The regular rulebook was already on my list. I'll just have to bump it up higher on the list. Two books still come before it - I need to pick up Arcana Evolved (I may be running a Diamond Throne game, so I want Evolved - even though I already have Unearthed) and Iron Lore.

Then I'll go for the Conan RPG.

Definitely go for the Atlantean Edition. It has updated rules based on player feedback, and someone actually proofread it!
Vahenir
05-09-05, 08:04 PM Funny. .that's exactly what was already on my list (yes, I actually do have a list on my computer): Conan RPG (Atlantean Edition) is what I had listed. So hopefully I'll get around to ordering it soon.
Talmariel
05-14-05, 01:02 PM Thanks, rbingham2000. After all this talk about Conan being good, I dropped by my FLGS and flipped through it. Now I'm $50 in the hole, and I've got to wrap up my D&D game to try Conan out, because it looks amazing. :(

Thanks a lot. :allalone:

:D
Johannixx
05-14-05, 03:51 PM I haven't been all that impressed with their adventures, but if you read some of the original Howard stories, you can get ideas for all sorts of shenanigans. That's what I've done: adapt the original stories (and a few pastiches) and run my PCs through them. They now own a brothel in Shadizar :)
VirgilCaine
05-14-05, 04:19 PM I haven't been all that impressed with their adventures, but if you read some of the original Howard stories, you can get ideas for all sorts of shenanigans. That's what I've done: adapt the original stories (and a few pastiches) and run my PCs through them. They now own a brothel in Shadizar :)

Adventures? Who needs adventures? Get in a bar fight, steal the crown jewels ravish the king's harem and be out before the guards find out you're there.
Talmariel
05-14-05, 04:49 PM I've never been one to use pre-made adventures anyhow. I will give credit where it's due, though - Ian Sturrock and company do a great job of explaining and directing the reader to the existing Howard stories. Honestly, I haven't ever read a single Conan story, only seen the first two movies (and only enjoyed the first :rolleyes: ). However, I'm very interested in what I've seen, and as far as I understand Conan: The Barbarian did a great job of nailing that Howard vibe of a bleak world of self-reliance and grabbing life with both hands. The game itself blew me away because of how effectively it created a low-magic, high-mortality interpretation of d20. It's clean, and doesn't unnecessarily encumber the existing rules. It's all the little things that add up to skill and experience meaning everything and material gain meaning nothing that entice me about this system. It's what I've always wanted in a low-magic D&D game and never thought to ask for.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rbingham2000 05-08-05, 06:26 AM	In the weapons list in the Conan RPG, the War Sword, Conan's equivalent of the much-debated bastard sword, is finessable when used with two hands, but isn't when used with one hand. This makes a certain amount of sense in my mind, because while the bastard sword is a bit heavier than your average longsword (and thus unwieldy enough to require a feat for one-handed use), it's a bit lighter than the greatsword, which definitely needs two hands to use normally and cannot be finessed under any circumstances whatsoever. In addition, the war sword was also usable as a one-handed martial weapon while mounted, and you needed the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use it with two hands from your mount (with the finesse). This was the part about it that seemed just a little bit odd in my mind, though it also makes a bit of sense once I thought about it a bit, what with lances being considered one-handed when you're using them mounted. I personally think this was a cool call on Mongoose's part, and I'd like to see how it would work in D&D.
DeadEye19 05-08-05, 07:26 AM	My players will have hard time getting it... But there's something to it. Maybe making it martial, period, when mounted? BTW, you got one funny signiture.
sir_argenon 05-08-05, 07:47 AM	excuse me for my n00b-ness, but when you say "finessable" you mean youre able to use the weapon finesse Feat with it, right? if so? then how is that possible? i thought weapon finesse had to be with a light weapon ???? :confused:
rbingham2000 05-08-05, 08:15 AM	excuse me for my n00b-ness, but when you say "finessable" you mean youre able to use the weapon finesse Feat with it, right? Correct. if so? then how is that possible? i thought weapon finesse had to be with a light weapon ???? :confused: The bastard sword is listed in the exotic weapons list as a one-handed weapon. The Conan RPG lists the broadsword, which is basically D&D's longsword adapted to the Conan-verse, as a finessable weapon when used in two hands (using the other hand on the pommel to guide the blade) though it's ostensibly a one-handed martial weapon. The reasoning behind this is fairly simple -- when you use a one-handed sword with two hands, you have a lot more control over the blade than when you're wielding it in one hand. The fact that Mongoose didn't give axes the same treatment leads me to believe that this is mainly a sword thing. I think it's a pretty cool way to distinguish swords from axes in a manner other than crit multipliers. It only works with the straight blades, though, since I didn't see this done with scimitars.
rbingham2000 05-08-05, 08:51 AM	My players will have hard time getting it... But there's something to it. Maybe making it martial, period, when mounted? BTW, you got one funny signiture. I had a tough time getting it at first too. I could understand why you needed special training to use the thing with one hand on foot, but I had a bit of trouble wrapping my head around why you needed special training to use the thing two-handed on a mount. I agree with your sentiment on making it martial, period, when you're on a mount. Basically, when you're using the thing on a mount, what you're mainly doing is using the mount's momentum to drive your blows, much like you do with the lance when you charge. The picture that comes to mind is the Nazgul in Fellowship of the Ring taking that poor watchman's head off in the Shire with one pass of the blade as he rides past. As for the sig, blame LosGunD for making me LMAO.
Vahenir 05-08-05, 12:30 PM	So wait.. the bastard sword becomes finessable.. and a longsword still isn't? That's a stupid rule, if you ask me. Oh well.. I like Mongoose, but their rules don't always make sense. But I think it's a step up anyway - I actually use Dex to attack rolls with all weapons as the default. But short of that - I think most weapons should be 'finessable." So it's a good rule, if you ask me.
Talmariel 05-08-05, 03:54 PM	The Conan RPG lists the broadsword, which is basically D&D's longsword adapted to the Conan-verse, as a finessable weapon when used in two hands (using the other hand on the pommel to guide the blade) though it's ostensibly a one-handed martial weapon. Vahenir, is that what you were talking about? ;) It's definately one way to define the control issue with swords used in two hands. I couldn't really think of a better way to describe the control one has over a sword used in two hands, so I guess it works. It's very odd, since you'd need a second feat to get the benefit of the first at all, and even then you're spreading yourself out more because the biggest boon of using a weapon two-handed is the additional damage from your Strength modifier. All the same, I can't think of a better way to handle it.
Vahenir 05-08-05, 04:27 PM	Ah yes.. whoopsy. I still think that's rather lame. You hit with coordination.. only if you use two hands on a one-hand weapon? Makes very little sense to me. Grab a 12th century arming sword.. put two hands on it. I guarantee your movements will be stiffer than the looser single-hand approach. But if it works - it works. Personally, I still prefer Dex to all attack rolls. But for most games, that will require other houserules to make it not overpowering for Dex.
Talmariel 05-08-05, 04:43 PM	If I know what you mean by "arming sword," I've picked up swords of comparable weight and trained with them. Two hands always make a weapon easier to control than one. Just because it's interesting, and bears a passing relationship to the conversation, here's (http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html) an article about two-handed sword use. It's geared more for what would be called a greatsword in D&D, but I found it quite informative. Edit: Caveat to my statement about two hands making weapons easier to control - it only applies when the weight of the weapon has any impact on its use. That is to say, something like a dagger is clearly not easier to manage two-handed.
Vahenir 05-08-05, 05:19 PM	Arming sword refers to a single-hand sword.. what D&D calls a longsword. Simple fact is, many arming swords (especially those used by the Nordic peoples) were -strictly- one-hand weapons. They -couldn't- be used in two, there was no room for an extra hand. And even the ones with a -slightly- longer hilt to accomodate a second hand aren't necessarily better-controled with two hands. You are partially correct - weight plays a big factor. But so does balance. A sword that's balanced close to the hilt will have almost no reason for a two-handed grip except for a heavier swing, as the control is meant to be conveyed into the hand. Which means that things like an arming sword -should- be finessable. But again, that opinion is coloured by the fact that I believe Dex should always go to attack rolls - considering hitting someone is an act of coordination, not power. (By the way, I've read pretty much every article on ARMA already. .haha.. I started going there back when it was The Haca.)
Johannixx 05-09-05, 12:31 AM	Vahenir, in the Conan system, they have two one-handed, straight bladed swords: the arming sword and the broadsword. The arming sword is finesseable one-handed, while the broadsword is finesseable two-handed. The broadsword, however, has a higher armor-piercing rating (since Conan uses Armor-as-DR). I really really like the Conan d20 system. I'm tempted to use it for all my d20 fantasy-type games, as I think the combat system is realistic without proving cumbersome.
Vahenir 05-09-05, 12:49 AM	Oooh... cool then. Thank you Johannixx.
Johannixx 05-09-05, 02:40 AM	Oooh... cool then. Thank you Johannixx. As a fan of realistic swordplay, you owe it to yourself to pick up at least the pocket version of the rulebook. You'll never look at d20 the same again ;)
rbingham2000 05-09-05, 04:43 AM	I have the pocket edition myself. Only thing they left out of it was the monsters, which means now I'll need to get my hands on the Atlantean Edition. :mad:
Johannixx 05-09-05, 10:49 AM	I have the pocket edition myself. Only thing they left out of it was the monsters, which means now I'll need to get my hands on the Atlantean Edition. :mad: I bought the original "Spellb.ook" edition, so I'm thinking of getting the pocket version just to have an updated, error-free copy of the ruleset ;)
Vahenir 05-09-05, 04:18 PM	As a fan of realistic swordplay, you owe it to yourself to pick up at least the pocket version of the rulebook. You'll never look at d20 the same again The regular rulebook was already on my list. I'll just have to bump it up higher on the list. Two books still come before it - I need to pick up Arcana Evolved (I may be running a Diamond Throne game, so I want Evolved - even though I already have Unearthed) and Iron Lore. Then I'll go for the Conan RPG.
Johannixx 05-09-05, 07:34 PM	The regular rulebook was already on my list. I'll just have to bump it up higher on the list. Two books still come before it - I need to pick up Arcana Evolved (I may be running a Diamond Throne game, so I want Evolved - even though I already have Unearthed) and Iron Lore. Then I'll go for the Conan RPG. Definitely go for the Atlantean Edition. It has updated rules based on player feedback, and someone actually proofread it!
Vahenir 05-09-05, 08:04 PM	Funny. .that's exactly what was already on my list (yes, I actually do have a list on my computer): Conan RPG (Atlantean Edition) is what I had listed. So hopefully I'll get around to ordering it soon.
Talmariel 05-14-05, 01:02 PM	Thanks, rbingham2000. After all this talk about Conan being good, I dropped by my FLGS and flipped through it. Now I'm $50 in the hole, and I've got to wrap up my D&D game to try Conan out, because it looks amazing. :( Thanks a lot. :allalone: :D
Johannixx 05-14-05, 03:51 PM	I haven't been all that impressed with their adventures, but if you read some of the original Howard stories, you can get ideas for all sorts of shenanigans. That's what I've done: adapt the original stories (and a few pastiches) and run my PCs through them. They now own a brothel in Shadizar :)
VirgilCaine 05-14-05, 04:19 PM	I haven't been all that impressed with their adventures, but if you read some of the original Howard stories, you can get ideas for all sorts of shenanigans. That's what I've done: adapt the original stories (and a few pastiches) and run my PCs through them. They now own a brothel in Shadizar :) Adventures? Who needs adventures? Get in a bar fight, steal the crown jewels ravish the king's harem and be out before the guards find out you're there.
Talmariel 05-14-05, 04:49 PM	I've never been one to use pre-made adventures anyhow. I will give credit where it's due, though - Ian Sturrock and company do a great job of explaining and directing the reader to the existing Howard stories. Honestly, I haven't ever read a single Conan story, only seen the first two movies (and only enjoyed the first :rolleyes: ). However, I'm very interested in what I've seen, and as far as I understand Conan: The Barbarian did a great job of nailing that Howard vibe of a bleak world of self-reliance and grabbing life with both hands. The game itself blew me away because of how effectively it created a low-magic, high-mortality interpretation of d20. It's clean, and doesn't unnecessarily encumber the existing rules. It's all the little things that add up to skill and experience meaning everything and material gain meaning nothing that entice me about this system. It's what I've always wanted in a low-magic D&D game and never thought to ask for.