Bastard Sword Obsoleted? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bastard Sword Obsoleted? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
epifreak
03-14-07, 04:45 PM Okay, so I was thumbing through the PH just a second ago, and I stumbled across something rather interesting.

A bastard sword is a 2H martial/1H exotic weapon, dealing 1d10 damage if you're a medium creature, but you already knew this.

A greatsword is a 2H martial weapon dealing 2d6 damage if you're medium; again, you already knew this.

Take a quick peek just to the left of the greatsword's medium damage, though, and take note of it's small damage. That's right, 1d10. So, effectively, to get a 1H 1d10 weapon as a medium creature, you could buy exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword, or you could just grab a small-sized greatsword, a 1H weapon for a medium creature.

It's hardly gamebreaking, but I just thought I'd share my discovery.
Witch
03-14-07, 04:47 PM I think not.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
WinterPsionic
03-14-07, 04:50 PM I think not.

Hey Im not the only one that remembers that rule :P YAY:D
Oliver D'Argent
03-14-07, 05:22 PM In short: you could do that, but you would always take a -2 to hit.
Rulebook
03-14-07, 05:22 PM the bastard sword is a waste of time anyway.

1 more ave. damage over the longsword.
1-1.5 average less damage under the greatsword.

is a single point of damage worth an EWP?
Oliver D'Argent
03-14-07, 05:30 PM the bastard sword is a waste of time anyway.

1 more ave. damage over the longsword.
1-1.5 average less damage under the greatsword.

is a single point of damage worth an EWP?

It depends.
If all you care about is min/maxing, then probably not.
If it fits your character concept for him to use a bastard sword, then it absolutely is.
jaelis
03-14-07, 05:30 PM On the other hand, if you don't have the EWP (bastard sword) feat, and for some reason felt a pressing need to do 1d10 damage with a 1H weapon, you would be better off using a small greatsword than a bastard sword. With the greatsword you'd take the -2 penalty for inappropriate size, but for the bastard sword you'd take the -4 penalty for nonproficiency.

That is a bit odd.
Watchman
03-14-07, 05:31 PM the bastard sword is a waste of time anyway.

1 more ave. damage over the longsword.
1-1.5 average less damage under the greatsword.

is a single point of damage worth an EWP?Hardly. 'S a "character concept" weapon far as I know.

Conan D20 incidentally has its equivalent (and the "scimitar" version of the same) usable one-handed with Martial prof by mounted characters - which is more than valid by what I know of historical cavalry weapons if it comes to that. Adding that as a houserule might give the poor thing (and its different incarnations such as the Waraxe) a genuine raison d'étre.

That is a bit odd.Not for D&D.
Oliver D'Argent
03-14-07, 05:36 PM Hardly. 'S a "character concept" weapon far as I know.

[shrugs] It depends on the player and his own concept - no one may naysay that.
xanadu
03-14-07, 05:42 PM It depends.
If all you care about is min/maxing, then probably not.
If it fits your character concept for him to use a bastard sword, then it absolutely is.

"Roleplaying" and "character concepts" do not excuse bad mechanics.
Watchman
03-14-07, 05:48 PM D&D is mainly bad mechanics, you know. V3.5 may be a considerable improvement over the earlier incarnations, but the fundaments are still something like thirty years old...

And let's be honest, RPG design has gone forward a fair bit in the meantime. WotC gets a raised hat for what they've managed to update D&D, but a relic is a relic no matter how much you change the peripherals.
Bedevere
03-14-07, 06:11 PM Exotic proficiency in the bastard sword grants one thing over any other weapon.

Versatility.

You can go one handed most of the time, but switch to two hands, losing either an off hand weapon, or shield, when you want the increase to singular damage that two handed wielding offers.
PoorHobo
03-14-07, 06:28 PM "Roleplaying" and "character concepts" do not excuse bad mechanics.

If you play anything other than pun-pun all the time then you are a hypocrite.
MikeN
03-14-07, 06:39 PM There are min-max reasons to use a bastard sword, just like there are min-max reasons to get some really crappy feats.

These reasons are called Prestige Classes. Just offhand, there's an extremely nice divine PrC in the Faiths and Powers that requires bastard sword. If I do a Windwalker build, I need to spend the feats for bastard sword.
Feroz
03-14-07, 07:31 PM Exotic proficiency in the bastard sword grants one thing over any other weapon.

Versatility.

You can go one handed most of the time, but switch to two hands, losing either an off hand weapon, or shield, when you want the increase to singular damage that two handed wielding offers.

And you can do the exact same thing with every other 1-handed weapon in the game, without having to take the feat to use it one-handed at that.
Bedevere
03-14-07, 07:58 PM And you don't get more damage from it.

Sure, 1 point per hit sounds virtually nothing. However, add in the increase from any crits you get, assuming a sensible build, and it has the potential to be quite effective, and IMO a worthwhile use of a feat.

Hey, fighters need all the help they can get, and if you had a feat for "+1 damage per hit, multiplied by crits", wouldn't you, as a fighter? Anyone answering anything to the effect of 'no, because I'd never waste time trying to min max a fighter' wins either a cookie, or a world of pain. I haven't decided which yet.... ;)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
03-14-07, 08:27 PM The bastard sword is amazing at size Huge or above. Below that, it's not.
Oliver D'Argent
03-14-07, 09:42 PM I'm not saying that Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) is the ultimate feat or anything (because it isn't).
However, if (for whatever reason) the the player's vision of his character has him using a bastard sword, he has the right to that vision and should take the feat to make the most of his ability to use the weapon.
Norsesmithy
03-14-07, 10:41 PM EWP Bastard Sword is awesome solely because it can be a prerequisite for the Exotic Weapon Master prestige class.

Then you get to do all sorts of neat tricks with your nifty one-hander.
dragynson1
03-15-07, 12:50 AM a lot of optimized fighter builds use bastard swords. oversized weapon ) ie monkey grip) is abused quite often. although ive never seen an oversized weapon sunblade weilding build, a bastard sword that is as easy to use as a short sword. but if i were taking the concept to extremes that would be the way, a large short sword = one handed, a huge short sword = 2 handed. oversized weapon + collosal short sword = two handed for medium creature i think. 6 ft guy 10 foot sword. do you get reach?
and no ewp needed.
Johannixx
03-15-07, 01:40 AM EWP Bastard Sword is awesome solely because it can be a prerequisite for the Exotic Weapon Master prestige class.

Then you get to do all sorts of neat tricks with your nifty one-hander.

One level of Exotic Weapon Master gains you the Uncanny Blow ability, which, coupled with at least an 18 Strength, is as good as or better than Weapon Specialization. My barbarian, with a 24 Strength during his rage, deals 1d10+14 damage with a normal, masterwork bastard sword. With a greatsword, he's dealing 2d6+10. That equates to 19.5 average damage with the bastard sword vs. 17 damage with the greatsword. 2.5 extra damage is worth more than Weapon Specialization any day of the week. In fact, if you're going to use a bastard sword, katana, dwarven war axe or maul, you'd be silly not to take a level or two of EWM.
paladin2019
03-15-07, 01:47 AM Uncanny Blow, is that an extra .5x STR bonus on a successful hit with the chosen weapon? That could be helpful.
Johannixx
03-15-07, 01:48 AM Uncanny Blow, is that an extra .5x STR bonus on a successful hit with the chosen weapon? That could be helpful.

Basically, any one-handed exotic weapon with which you are proficient gains 2x Strength damage when wielded in two hands, and always counts as two-handed for purposes of Power Attack (i.e., you get -1 attack and +2 damage even when single-handing it). It's pretty stout. Our low-magic campaign has made it a must-have to stay competitive with the bad critters at mid- to high-levels.
Tonus
03-15-07, 03:40 AM Exotic proficiency in the bastard sword grants one thing over any other weapon.

Versatility.

You can go one handed most of the time, but switch to two hands, losing either an off hand weapon, or shield, when you want the increase to singular damage that two handed wielding offers.

Actually, if you want versatility, forget the EWP Bastard Sword feat -- use a Longsword and spend the feat on Power Attack instead. You can two-hand a longsword, too.
Faithkeep
03-15-07, 08:04 AM Actually, if you want versatility, forget the EWP Bastard Sword feat -- use a Longsword and spend the feat on Power Attack instead. You can two-hand a longsword, too.

Yeah. I prefer a longsword. It does everything the bastard sword does. Everything except the 1d10 - 1d8 difference... which for me is not that much. :)
Banatine
03-15-07, 08:50 AM I get really fed up with people saying 'why use a bastard sword?'.

I say to people 'why use a greatsword and animated shield?'. I don't see why any real life adventurer would choose that.

I would use a bastard sword, large bladed shield, and have agile shield fighter. That makes me not only more effective in combat, it increases my defence, and my overall usefulness.

Those are the things that go through the mind of a standard adventurer. I am optimising my character through logic, and knowledge that the character himself would have as a fighter. I dont like other forms of optimisation.
Garonak
03-15-07, 11:02 AM On the other hand, if you don't have the EWP (bastard sword) feat, and for some reason felt a pressing need to do 1d10 damage with a 1H weapon, you would be better off using a small greatsword than a bastard sword. With the greatsword you'd take the -2 penalty for inappropriate size, but for the bastard sword you'd take the -4 penalty for nonproficiency.

That is a bit odd.

Note: A small Greatsword is still 2handed, even for medium creatures...
Feroz
03-15-07, 01:26 PM Note: A small Greatsword is still 2handed, even for medium creatures...

No it isn't, downsizing a weapon by one size category also takes its wielding down one category. For a medium greature it would go

Too Large to Use (Large or larger Greatsword)
Two-Handed (Medium Greatsword)
One-Handed (Small Greatsword)
Light (Tiny Greatsword)
Too Small to Use (Diminutive or smaller Greatsword)
aelryinth
03-15-07, 06:26 PM EWP: bastard sword is a level 0 feat. It's weapon familiarity, something that gnomes, dwarves, valenar elves and such get for free.

Personally, I'd just rule that if you took weapon focus with the bastard sword at level 1, you get weapon familiarity just like a Dwarf does with Dwarven Waraxe.

No, it's not worth a full feat. It's worth part of another one.

===Aelryinth
Chimaera2000
03-15-07, 06:47 PM Generally speaking, if you had to choose between +1 to hit and +1 to damage, +1 to damage is a better choice. With that in mind, it is typically better from an optimization perspective to take Weapon Focus (Longsword) than Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) unless you're taking a level of Exotic Weapon Master and/or are treated as larger than medium (such as half-giants or goliaths).
DarkRhystar
03-15-07, 06:55 PM Generally speaking, if you had to choose between +1 to hit and +1 to damage, +1 to hit damage is a better choice. With that in mind, it is typically better from an optimization perspective to take Weapon Focus (Longsword) than Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) unless you're taking a level of Exotic Weapon Master and/or are treated as larger than medium (such as half-giants or goliaths).

Fixed that for you. :)
MasonMurdoc
03-15-07, 06:58 PM Most Exotic weapons are for flavour
Watchman
03-15-07, 07:04 PM Isn't the general opinion that the Spiked Chain is for Beardy Cheese Munchkinising though ?
Yadot
03-15-07, 07:15 PM Cheesey munchkinism or the only Exotic weapon worth the feat? You decide.
tyrecian
03-15-07, 07:32 PM the bastard sword EWP. I have played with a group (and also DM'ed) that always has a bastard sword weilding Pally. The average damage increase is negligable from a longsword and less than a GSword.

As far as using a shield, better to use a shield and LSword and then take quickdraw, a fantastically better feat, so that as a move Eq. action you can drop the shield and rip out the GSword if you need to.

Oh well, the reason its exotic is getting a d10 from a one hander. Flavor, or a noob trap, either way it isnt the worst possible thing a character could take at 1st level to improve their damage output. Maybe not so useful later on, but at 1-5th levels it is a nice addition to a party that has little money adn a need for a versatile tank/damage dealer.
Willie the Duck
03-16-07, 12:50 AM D&D is mainly bad mechanics, you know. V3.5 may be a considerable improvement over the earlier incarnations, but the fundaments are still something like thirty years old...

And let's be honest, RPG design has gone forward a fair bit in the meantime. WotC gets a raised hat for what they've managed to update D&D, but a relic is a relic no matter how much you change the peripherals.

Y'know, I'm sympathietic to the argument that D&D, although significantly cleaned up, is still a clunky, poorly made system. Where we disagree is that there are other systems that aren't, or that the general state of affairs has been improving over time (with the exception of acknowledging that all the 70s made RPGs were just nightmares, but hey, the concept of an RPG was just coming into being). GURPS? Better for designing characters, worse for playing. Storyteller? Favors roleplay over mechanics predominantly by making the mechanics unusable. Tri-stat/BESM? GURPS with point cost divided by five. Sure there have been some amazing games on a conceptual level such as Tekumal, Dead inside, Dogs in the vineyard, and such, but nothing that much better than D&D on a mechanical level.
Watchman
03-16-07, 09:27 AM D&D has quite enough in the way of confusingly worded, ill-thought or just plain unwieldy rules far as I can tell, you know. And often the issues they raise seem to be of the wrong sort, namely, purely rules-technical ones rather than commonsense ones.

QED, the standard content of this forum alone. :D

The thing is, most of the later RPGs tend to deliver a bit more in the way of credibility and flexibility to offset their particular set of clunky mechanics. D&D is still clearly at a rather fundamental level stuck in its (bad) tactical wargame roots.
Keoki
03-16-07, 09:49 AM It depends.
If all you care about is min/maxing, then probably not.
If it fits your character concept for him to use a bastard sword, then it absolutely is.

That's what the thread is about - the fact that in game terms only, there's no reason to use a bastard sword one-handed. For the cost of that one feat, it's much better to get Improved Buckler Defense and use a greatsword instead. You give up a point of AC by not having a larger shield, but your weapon damage increases tremendously, particularly if there's a decent Str bonus to go with it.
TranquilDarkness
03-18-07, 11:08 AM Mostly, exotic weapon feats are just not worth it.
That goes double for campaign where the DM dishes out magic weapons according to his whim and flavor, not the feats chosen by the PC's.

Having said that, I wanted a fighter with bastard swords, and I bargained with the Dm to change all martial weapon profs for just the bastard sword. He may only be able to use a bastard sword (and his hands as a multiclass monk) but I could spend my feats on two weapon fighting and oversized two weapon fighting. Follow it up with weapon focus and specialization and it becomes interesting for alot more reasons than flavor.
Sajek
03-18-07, 11:20 AM Of course not! The katana is just a masterwork bastard sword! The katana will never be obsolete!
Fallenangel359
03-18-07, 12:22 PM I'm running an eberron game, but I allow my players to pick god from other books, if it suits them better, and I have an assimar neutral good (eberron 1step off of alignment rule) paladin/favored soul in my group, with the chaotic good faerunian drow goddess, with a really good backstory... basically, as favored soul get proficiency with their god's favored weapon for free, he has EWP bastard sword for free, and runs around with an animated shield using the bastardsword 2handedly. Last game he ran into a bunch of lycanthropes and one vampire hiding from them and afterwards had his blade coated with silver, and then inscribed in celestial "shifterbane" onto the blade, with glowing green letters.
JolanthusTrel
03-28-07, 02:08 AM The benefit isn't really aparent in Roleplay. But a bastard sword has a benefit in reach over a longsword for a 'shorter' character. Kitiara in Dragonlance uses a Bastard Sword to counter the reach of bigger male opponents. I have a character that uses a bastard sword because a katana is out of place in the universe. But In roleplay, its more a flavour thing. In there is no difference between a 5'7" human and a 6'7" human, for all extensive purposes they are both 'Medium'. but Irl, there is definatly a reach bonus for the human who stands 6'7"
Garonak
03-28-07, 07:36 AM The benefit isn't really aparent in Roleplay. But a bastard sword has a benefit in reach over a longsword for a 'shorter' character. Kitiara in Dragonlance uses a Bastard Sword to counter the reach of bigger male opponents. I have a character that uses a bastard sword because a katana is out of place in the universe. But In roleplay, its more a flavour thing. In there is no difference between a 5'7" human and a 6'7" human, for all extensive purposes they are both 'Medium'. but Irl, there is definatly a reach bonus for the human who stands 6'7"

Confirmed. It's fun to do the whole outstretched hand and keep small (read: shorter than 6') people out of reach...
Watchman
03-28-07, 10:35 AM Then again, the Romans could tell you a few things about fighting big guys at least a head taller than you and wielding long swords with just shortswords...

Come to think of it, those selfsame Celts could as well. I've read their junior warriors often fought with just short swords and bucklers.
FrinkiacVII
03-28-07, 12:54 PM Dwarven Waraxe (and of course, make him a dwarf, the best martial race ever).
RealMad
03-28-07, 01:53 PM Unless you are indeed going EWP, for me the only time to use a bastard sword is if you can get it "relatively for free" as when your DM uses Weapon Group proficiencies and you can just choose the Exotic Heavy Blade group as part of your initial proficiencies.

Otherwise yeah, it doesn't really make much sense to use a feat on bastard sword and leave it at that.
Daxen
03-28-07, 09:25 PM It is a Style Weapon for Some of the ToB stuff. Diamond Mind and Iron Heart. This has given the Bastard Sword a bit more validity. Not my first choice, nut hey I am making a warblade that uses Trident/Net and Shield so what do I know.
ravenshrike
03-28-07, 11:34 PM Cheesey munchkinism or the only Exotic weapon worth the feat? You decide.

Unless you bring in splatbooks. The elven 2 hander is pretty nice for an archer build if swarmed. For an elven rogue racial weap prof is a must. Gets you 3 blades, all useful in different situations.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
epifreak 03-14-07, 04:45 PM	Okay, so I was thumbing through the PH just a second ago, and I stumbled across something rather interesting. A bastard sword is a 2H martial/1H exotic weapon, dealing 1d10 damage if you're a medium creature, but you already knew this. A greatsword is a 2H martial weapon dealing 2d6 damage if you're medium; again, you already knew this. Take a quick peek just to the left of the greatsword's medium damage, though, and take note of it's small damage. That's right, 1d10. So, effectively, to get a 1H 1d10 weapon as a medium creature, you could buy exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword, or you could just grab a small-sized greatsword, a 1H weapon for a medium creature. It's hardly gamebreaking, but I just thought I'd share my discovery.
Witch 03-14-07, 04:47 PM	I think not. Inappropriately Sized Weapons A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
WinterPsionic 03-14-07, 04:50 PM	I think not. Hey Im not the only one that remembers that rule :P YAY:D
Oliver D'Argent 03-14-07, 05:22 PM	In short: you could do that, but you would always take a -2 to hit.
Rulebook 03-14-07, 05:22 PM	the bastard sword is a waste of time anyway. 1 more ave. damage over the longsword. 1-1.5 average less damage under the greatsword. is a single point of damage worth an EWP?
Oliver D'Argent 03-14-07, 05:30 PM	the bastard sword is a waste of time anyway. 1 more ave. damage over the longsword. 1-1.5 average less damage under the greatsword. is a single point of damage worth an EWP? It depends. If all you care about is min/maxing, then probably not. If it fits your character concept for him to use a bastard sword, then it absolutely is.
jaelis 03-14-07, 05:30 PM	On the other hand, if you don't have the EWP (bastard sword) feat, and for some reason felt a pressing need to do 1d10 damage with a 1H weapon, you would be better off using a small greatsword than a bastard sword. With the greatsword you'd take the -2 penalty for inappropriate size, but for the bastard sword you'd take the -4 penalty for nonproficiency. That is a bit odd.
Watchman 03-14-07, 05:31 PM	the bastard sword is a waste of time anyway. 1 more ave. damage over the longsword. 1-1.5 average less damage under the greatsword. is a single point of damage worth an EWP?Hardly. 'S a "character concept" weapon far as I know. Conan D20 incidentally has its equivalent (and the "scimitar" version of the same) usable one-handed with Martial prof by mounted characters - which is more than valid by what I know of historical cavalry weapons if it comes to that. Adding that as a houserule might give the poor thing (and its different incarnations such as the Waraxe) a genuine raison d'étre. That is a bit odd.Not for D&D.
Oliver D'Argent 03-14-07, 05:36 PM	Hardly. 'S a "character concept" weapon far as I know. [shrugs] It depends on the player and his own concept - no one may naysay that.
xanadu 03-14-07, 05:42 PM	It depends. If all you care about is min/maxing, then probably not. If it fits your character concept for him to use a bastard sword, then it absolutely is. "Roleplaying" and "character concepts" do not excuse bad mechanics.
Watchman 03-14-07, 05:48 PM	D&D is mainly bad mechanics, you know. V3.5 may be a considerable improvement over the earlier incarnations, but the fundaments are still something like thirty years old... And let's be honest, RPG design has gone forward a fair bit in the meantime. WotC gets a raised hat for what they've managed to update D&D, but a relic is a relic no matter how much you change the peripherals.
Bedevere 03-14-07, 06:11 PM	Exotic proficiency in the bastard sword grants one thing over any other weapon. Versatility. You can go one handed most of the time, but switch to two hands, losing either an off hand weapon, or shield, when you want the increase to singular damage that two handed wielding offers.
PoorHobo 03-14-07, 06:28 PM	"Roleplaying" and "character concepts" do not excuse bad mechanics. If you play anything other than pun-pun all the time then you are a hypocrite.
MikeN 03-14-07, 06:39 PM	There are min-max reasons to use a bastard sword, just like there are min-max reasons to get some really crappy feats. These reasons are called Prestige Classes. Just offhand, there's an extremely nice divine PrC in the Faiths and Powers that requires bastard sword. If I do a Windwalker build, I need to spend the feats for bastard sword.
Feroz 03-14-07, 07:31 PM	Exotic proficiency in the bastard sword grants one thing over any other weapon. Versatility. You can go one handed most of the time, but switch to two hands, losing either an off hand weapon, or shield, when you want the increase to singular damage that two handed wielding offers. And you can do the exact same thing with every other 1-handed weapon in the game, without having to take the feat to use it one-handed at that.
Bedevere 03-14-07, 07:58 PM	And you don't get more damage from it. Sure, 1 point per hit sounds virtually nothing. However, add in the increase from any crits you get, assuming a sensible build, and it has the potential to be quite effective, and IMO a worthwhile use of a feat. Hey, fighters need all the help they can get, and if you had a feat for "+1 damage per hit, multiplied by crits", wouldn't you, as a fighter? Anyone answering anything to the effect of 'no, because I'd never waste time trying to min max a fighter' wins either a cookie, or a world of pain. I haven't decided which yet.... ;)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-14-07, 08:27 PM	The bastard sword is amazing at size Huge or above. Below that, it's not.
Oliver D'Argent 03-14-07, 09:42 PM	I'm not saying that Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) is the ultimate feat or anything (because it isn't). However, if (for whatever reason) the the player's vision of his character has him using a bastard sword, he has the right to that vision and should take the feat to make the most of his ability to use the weapon.
Norsesmithy 03-14-07, 10:41 PM	EWP Bastard Sword is awesome solely because it can be a prerequisite for the Exotic Weapon Master prestige class. Then you get to do all sorts of neat tricks with your nifty one-hander.
dragynson1 03-15-07, 12:50 AM	a lot of optimized fighter builds use bastard swords. oversized weapon ) ie monkey grip) is abused quite often. although ive never seen an oversized weapon sunblade weilding build, a bastard sword that is as easy to use as a short sword. but if i were taking the concept to extremes that would be the way, a large short sword = one handed, a huge short sword = 2 handed. oversized weapon + collosal short sword = two handed for medium creature i think. 6 ft guy 10 foot sword. do you get reach? and no ewp needed.
Johannixx 03-15-07, 01:40 AM	EWP Bastard Sword is awesome solely because it can be a prerequisite for the Exotic Weapon Master prestige class. Then you get to do all sorts of neat tricks with your nifty one-hander. One level of Exotic Weapon Master gains you the Uncanny Blow ability, which, coupled with at least an 18 Strength, is as good as or better than Weapon Specialization. My barbarian, with a 24 Strength during his rage, deals 1d10+14 damage with a normal, masterwork bastard sword. With a greatsword, he's dealing 2d6+10. That equates to 19.5 average damage with the bastard sword vs. 17 damage with the greatsword. 2.5 extra damage is worth more than Weapon Specialization any day of the week. In fact, if you're going to use a bastard sword, katana, dwarven war axe or maul, you'd be silly not to take a level or two of EWM.
paladin2019 03-15-07, 01:47 AM	Uncanny Blow, is that an extra .5x STR bonus on a successful hit with the chosen weapon? That could be helpful.
Johannixx 03-15-07, 01:48 AM	Uncanny Blow, is that an extra .5x STR bonus on a successful hit with the chosen weapon? That could be helpful. Basically, any one-handed exotic weapon with which you are proficient gains 2x Strength damage when wielded in two hands, and always counts as two-handed for purposes of Power Attack (i.e., you get -1 attack and +2 damage even when single-handing it). It's pretty stout. Our low-magic campaign has made it a must-have to stay competitive with the bad critters at mid- to high-levels.
Tonus 03-15-07, 03:40 AM	Exotic proficiency in the bastard sword grants one thing over any other weapon. Versatility. You can go one handed most of the time, but switch to two hands, losing either an off hand weapon, or shield, when you want the increase to singular damage that two handed wielding offers. Actually, if you want versatility, forget the EWP Bastard Sword feat -- use a Longsword and spend the feat on Power Attack instead. You can two-hand a longsword, too.
Faithkeep 03-15-07, 08:04 AM	Actually, if you want versatility, forget the EWP Bastard Sword feat -- use a Longsword and spend the feat on Power Attack instead. You can two-hand a longsword, too. Yeah. I prefer a longsword. It does everything the bastard sword does. Everything except the 1d10 - 1d8 difference... which for me is not that much. :)
Banatine 03-15-07, 08:50 AM	I get really fed up with people saying 'why use a bastard sword?'. I say to people 'why use a greatsword and animated shield?'. I don't see why any real life adventurer would choose that. I would use a bastard sword, large bladed shield, and have agile shield fighter. That makes me not only more effective in combat, it increases my defence, and my overall usefulness. Those are the things that go through the mind of a standard adventurer. I am optimising my character through logic, and knowledge that the character himself would have as a fighter. I dont like other forms of optimisation.
Garonak 03-15-07, 11:02 AM	On the other hand, if you don't have the EWP (bastard sword) feat, and for some reason felt a pressing need to do 1d10 damage with a 1H weapon, you would be better off using a small greatsword than a bastard sword. With the greatsword you'd take the -2 penalty for inappropriate size, but for the bastard sword you'd take the -4 penalty for nonproficiency. That is a bit odd. Note: A small Greatsword is still 2handed, even for medium creatures...
Feroz 03-15-07, 01:26 PM	Note: A small Greatsword is still 2handed, even for medium creatures... No it isn't, downsizing a weapon by one size category also takes its wielding down one category. For a medium greature it would go Too Large to Use (Large or larger Greatsword) Two-Handed (Medium Greatsword) One-Handed (Small Greatsword) Light (Tiny Greatsword) Too Small to Use (Diminutive or smaller Greatsword)
aelryinth 03-15-07, 06:26 PM	EWP: bastard sword is a level 0 feat. It's weapon familiarity, something that gnomes, dwarves, valenar elves and such get for free. Personally, I'd just rule that if you took weapon focus with the bastard sword at level 1, you get weapon familiarity just like a Dwarf does with Dwarven Waraxe. No, it's not worth a full feat. It's worth part of another one. ===Aelryinth
Chimaera2000 03-15-07, 06:47 PM	Generally speaking, if you had to choose between +1 to hit and +1 to damage, +1 to damage is a better choice. With that in mind, it is typically better from an optimization perspective to take Weapon Focus (Longsword) than Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) unless you're taking a level of Exotic Weapon Master and/or are treated as larger than medium (such as half-giants or goliaths).
DarkRhystar 03-15-07, 06:55 PM	Generally speaking, if you had to choose between +1 to hit and +1 to damage, +1 to hit damage is a better choice. With that in mind, it is typically better from an optimization perspective to take Weapon Focus (Longsword) than Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) unless you're taking a level of Exotic Weapon Master and/or are treated as larger than medium (such as half-giants or goliaths). Fixed that for you. :)
MasonMurdoc 03-15-07, 06:58 PM	Most Exotic weapons are for flavour
Watchman 03-15-07, 07:04 PM	Isn't the general opinion that the Spiked Chain is for Beardy Cheese Munchkinising though ?
Yadot 03-15-07, 07:15 PM	Cheesey munchkinism or the only Exotic weapon worth the feat? You decide.
tyrecian 03-15-07, 07:32 PM	the bastard sword EWP. I have played with a group (and also DM'ed) that always has a bastard sword weilding Pally. The average damage increase is negligable from a longsword and less than a GSword. As far as using a shield, better to use a shield and LSword and then take quickdraw, a fantastically better feat, so that as a move Eq. action you can drop the shield and rip out the GSword if you need to. Oh well, the reason its exotic is getting a d10 from a one hander. Flavor, or a noob trap, either way it isnt the worst possible thing a character could take at 1st level to improve their damage output. Maybe not so useful later on, but at 1-5th levels it is a nice addition to a party that has little money adn a need for a versatile tank/damage dealer.
Willie the Duck 03-16-07, 12:50 AM	D&D is mainly bad mechanics, you know. V3.5 may be a considerable improvement over the earlier incarnations, but the fundaments are still something like thirty years old... And let's be honest, RPG design has gone forward a fair bit in the meantime. WotC gets a raised hat for what they've managed to update D&D, but a relic is a relic no matter how much you change the peripherals. Y'know, I'm sympathietic to the argument that D&D, although significantly cleaned up, is still a clunky, poorly made system. Where we disagree is that there are other systems that aren't, or that the general state of affairs has been improving over time (with the exception of acknowledging that all the 70s made RPGs were just nightmares, but hey, the concept of an RPG was just coming into being). GURPS? Better for designing characters, worse for playing. Storyteller? Favors roleplay over mechanics predominantly by making the mechanics unusable. Tri-stat/BESM? GURPS with point cost divided by five. Sure there have been some amazing games on a conceptual level such as Tekumal, Dead inside, Dogs in the vineyard, and such, but nothing that much better than D&D on a mechanical level.
Watchman 03-16-07, 09:27 AM	D&D has quite enough in the way of confusingly worded, ill-thought or just plain unwieldy rules far as I can tell, you know. And often the issues they raise seem to be of the wrong sort, namely, purely rules-technical ones rather than commonsense ones. QED, the standard content of this forum alone. :D The thing is, most of the later RPGs tend to deliver a bit more in the way of credibility and flexibility to offset their particular set of clunky mechanics. D&D is still clearly at a rather fundamental level stuck in its (bad) tactical wargame roots.
Keoki 03-16-07, 09:49 AM	It depends. If all you care about is min/maxing, then probably not. If it fits your character concept for him to use a bastard sword, then it absolutely is. That's what the thread is about - the fact that in game terms only, there's no reason to use a bastard sword one-handed. For the cost of that one feat, it's much better to get Improved Buckler Defense and use a greatsword instead. You give up a point of AC by not having a larger shield, but your weapon damage increases tremendously, particularly if there's a decent Str bonus to go with it.
TranquilDarkness 03-18-07, 11:08 AM	Mostly, exotic weapon feats are just not worth it. That goes double for campaign where the DM dishes out magic weapons according to his whim and flavor, not the feats chosen by the PC's. Having said that, I wanted a fighter with bastard swords, and I bargained with the Dm to change all martial weapon profs for just the bastard sword. He may only be able to use a bastard sword (and his hands as a multiclass monk) but I could spend my feats on two weapon fighting and oversized two weapon fighting. Follow it up with weapon focus and specialization and it becomes interesting for alot more reasons than flavor.
Sajek 03-18-07, 11:20 AM	Of course not! The katana is just a masterwork bastard sword! The katana will never be obsolete!
Fallenangel359 03-18-07, 12:22 PM	I'm running an eberron game, but I allow my players to pick god from other books, if it suits them better, and I have an assimar neutral good (eberron 1step off of alignment rule) paladin/favored soul in my group, with the chaotic good faerunian drow goddess, with a really good backstory... basically, as favored soul get proficiency with their god's favored weapon for free, he has EWP bastard sword for free, and runs around with an animated shield using the bastardsword 2handedly. Last game he ran into a bunch of lycanthropes and one vampire hiding from them and afterwards had his blade coated with silver, and then inscribed in celestial "shifterbane" onto the blade, with glowing green letters.
JolanthusTrel 03-28-07, 02:08 AM	The benefit isn't really aparent in Roleplay. But a bastard sword has a benefit in reach over a longsword for a 'shorter' character. Kitiara in Dragonlance uses a Bastard Sword to counter the reach of bigger male opponents. I have a character that uses a bastard sword because a katana is out of place in the universe. But In roleplay, its more a flavour thing. In there is no difference between a 5'7" human and a 6'7" human, for all extensive purposes they are both 'Medium'. but Irl, there is definatly a reach bonus for the human who stands 6'7"
Garonak 03-28-07, 07:36 AM	The benefit isn't really aparent in Roleplay. But a bastard sword has a benefit in reach over a longsword for a 'shorter' character. Kitiara in Dragonlance uses a Bastard Sword to counter the reach of bigger male opponents. I have a character that uses a bastard sword because a katana is out of place in the universe. But In roleplay, its more a flavour thing. In there is no difference between a 5'7" human and a 6'7" human, for all extensive purposes they are both 'Medium'. but Irl, there is definatly a reach bonus for the human who stands 6'7" Confirmed. It's fun to do the whole outstretched hand and keep small (read: shorter than 6') people out of reach...
Watchman 03-28-07, 10:35 AM	Then again, the Romans could tell you a few things about fighting big guys at least a head taller than you and wielding long swords with just shortswords... Come to think of it, those selfsame Celts could as well. I've read their junior warriors often fought with just short swords and bucklers.
FrinkiacVII 03-28-07, 12:54 PM	Dwarven Waraxe (and of course, make him a dwarf, the best martial race ever).
RealMad 03-28-07, 01:53 PM	Unless you are indeed going EWP, for me the only time to use a bastard sword is if you can get it "relatively for free" as when your DM uses Weapon Group proficiencies and you can just choose the Exotic Heavy Blade group as part of your initial proficiencies. Otherwise yeah, it doesn't really make much sense to use a feat on bastard sword and leave it at that.
Daxen 03-28-07, 09:25 PM	It is a Style Weapon for Some of the ToB stuff. Diamond Mind and Iron Heart. This has given the Bastard Sword a bit more validity. Not my first choice, nut hey I am making a warblade that uses Trident/Net and Shield so what do I know.
ravenshrike 03-28-07, 11:34 PM	Cheesey munchkinism or the only Exotic weapon worth the feat? You decide. Unless you bring in splatbooks. The elven 2 hander is pretty nice for an archer build if swarmed. For an elven rogue racial weap prof is a must. Gets you 3 blades, all useful in different situations.