Bastard sword worth a feat??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bastard sword worth a feat??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Trolbri
04-04-07, 10:07 AM Is the bastard sword worth the feat, compared to alongsword, if you want to use a shield in the other hand?

This question has subquestions

- is bastardsword worth it for at shield using figther?

- is bastardsword worth it if you don't have the longsword preq?
Plothos
04-04-07, 10:19 AM It's not generally considered worthwhile here on the boards, because there are better things to spend feats on. For example, weapon specialization gives you +2 to damage, while using a bastard sword instead of a longsword gives only +1 damage on average. However, fighters often have feats to burn, so it's not like you can't take weapon specialization (WS) AND bastard sword proficiency (BSP). So the real question is whether you have a feat to burn. BSP might not be better than WS, but it's probably better than, say, toughness. Is it better than combat expertise? Well, that's harder to say, and more in the realm of personal preference.

If you don't have LSP, BSP becomes more appealing, certainly. The real question now is whetehr a character with a bastard sword and X number of feats is better than a character with a heavy mace or morningstar and X+1 feats. You still gain only +1 to damage, but you also gain an improved critical threat range. That makes BSP a nicer feat by comparison to its competition than it was when it added only +1 to damage. It might even compete with WS at this point.
draconic_swine
04-04-07, 10:57 AM Plothos pretty much summed it up. If you have the feats to spare, it's an okay feat, but it's definitely never going to be a great use of a feat. I'd personally take Weapon Specialization: Longsword for a guaranteed +2 to damage, rather than a 10% getting 1 or 2 higher more than a longsword. 3-10 damage is nicer than 1-10 damage.

Another thing to consider is that at higher levels the actual damage your weapon deals becomes rather insignificant. It ends up being about criticals and how much fixed damage you deal with each attack.

If you're creating a character and are unsure whether or not to take EWP: Bastard Sword, I have a few suggestions for you. If you don't have longsword proficiency, and you really want your character to use a sword, then definitely go for the bastard sword. If you are proficient with a longsword and don't have a lot of feats to spend, then I'd highly suggest sticking with the longsword. If you're already proficient with the longsword and have a lot of feats to spend, then spending the feat on the bastard sword is okay (though still not entirely optimal). If, however, you are planning on taking a feat-intensive tree (such as whirlwind), I'd definitely suggest just sticking with the longsword.
Slimgauge
04-04-07, 11:04 AM If you wish to go sword and shield, a reason to take weapon proficiency with a bastard sword is so you can later take levels in Complete Warrior's Exotic Weapons Master prestige class (one of the few things you can't do with a longsword). This gives you access to Uncanny Blow and some other things like Exotic Sunder or Show Off or Exotic Trip.
armnaxis
04-04-07, 11:20 AM I must second slimgauge. Uncanny Blow is awesome if you carry a shield and have high STR. Moreover, you can let go the shield when you feel so and even profit more from a high STR score.
Plothos
04-04-07, 12:21 PM Moreover, you can let go the shield when you feel so and even profit more from a high STR score.That's true regardless of which sword you're using. And doffing a shield is a bit more involved than merely dropping it.

But the point that taking an exotic weapon proficiency feat may help you into a prestige class is another point in favor of EWP. I know of none besides the class mentioned, however, so if you're not eyeing that class, this is a non-issue.
tarkin
04-04-07, 01:04 PM As a general rule, no, it is not worth the feat.

However, there are certain builds that make it worthwhile.

One of which is TWF using Oversized TWF.

Then you wield two Bastard swords, one in each hand.

In that case, it does become worth it.
Iarmeister
04-04-07, 01:34 PM I'm suprised no one mentioned it:

My suggestion would be to utilize a bastard sword (if that is your inclination) and instead of picking up the exotic w.p. to fight one handed, spend it on power attack instead.

This way, when you fight two-handed with your bastard sword + the power attack, each point you spend on power attack is doubled when calculating damage on a successful hit.

This is why a lot of melee combatants choose to fight with great swords + power attack.
Pegasos989
04-04-07, 01:53 PM Well, I will give a long explanation of why it is not worth it, ever. Behold, the minmaxer is about to speak.

First, I got to establish two basic facts:

When fighting with sword and shield compared to two-handed fighting, you lose signifiant amount of damage output to get hit less often. However, your damage output would have killed the enemy faster and again you would have been hit less often. However, with sword and shield, enemy has time to think "I can't hit him, he damages me slowly... I'll skip him and kill his party!".

If DM plays monsters intelligent instead of "I will attack the one hardest to hit", sword and board is bad combination 99% of the time.

The only exception is if you use Two-weapon fighting with shield bash and a sword but that is in the next point.

Also, if your DM allows animated shield enchantment, there is REALLY no reason to go sword and shield. Sorry, that is how 3.5e is built.

(this sblock doesn't include the Jack B. Quick build of char op boards)

With Two-handed fighting, you get 1.5x str to damage, with two-weapon fighting you get 1.0x + 0.5x. With two-handed fighting your weapon deals 2d6 damage, with two-weapon fighting 1d8+1d6 or so. It is cheaper to get two weapons of +2 than one of +4 but if you want enchantments like "of speed", TWF costs more. They might be about balanced but with TWF, you
*deal smaller portition of damage on attack of opportunities
--And full attak
--And charge
*are subject to twice the amount of damage reduction
*get less benefit from haste
*got to take -2 to each attack
*get to power attack for worse ratios
*got to spend 3 feats
*got to keep high dexterity
Getting weapon specialization twice to damage is REALLY not even NEARLY enough to make TWF viable after level 10 or so.

TWF CAN be used efficiently, if you get good bonus on damage of each attack, such as rogues. If rogue flanks and gets +10d6 sneak attack on 6 attacks instead of 3, it is worth it. However, without extra source of damage, TWF is not worth it.

You can start arguing if you wish but those are facts. Go to character oprimization boards and ask the experts if you wish. So, let's assume those were right...

Now that this is over...

EWP Bastard sword is not worth it in sword and shield, because after low levels, it is inferior (as mentioned).

EWP Bastard sword is not worth it in TWF because if you use TWF at high levels, you should be a rogue or such (and using weapon finesse, which doesn't work with bastard sword).

EWP Bastard sword is QUITE not worth it for exotic weapon master, because you get 0.5x STR extra damage for what? You use a feat and a level of class abilities. How much damage should we get from that? +3 at minium. Well, because greatsword makes inheritedly +1.5 more damage, half our STR mod has to be +4.5, so it becomes about even to greatsword at the time we have +9 str mod. (Naturally, I would never spend a feat and a level for +3 or even +5 damage, but I guess most people don't like optimizing as much...)

So EWP Bastard sword is simply not worth it.
Pegasos989
04-04-07, 01:55 PM I'm suprised no one mentioned it:

My suggestion would be to utilize a bastard sword (if that is your inclination) and instead of picking up the exotic w.p. to fight one handed, spend it on power attack instead.

This way, when you fight two-handed with your bastard sword + the power attack, each point you spend on power attack is doubled when calculating damage on a successful hit.

This is why a lot of melee combatants choose to fight with great swords + power attack.

If you go that route, you are exactly as using greatsword but deal 1.5 points less damage (1d10 vs 2d6.). As such, it is not worth it in that case either.
Iarmeister
04-04-07, 02:11 PM If you go that route, you are exactly as using greatsword but deal 1.5 points less damage (1d10 vs 2d6.). As such, it is not worth it in that case either.

I agree with you. Note I added "if that is your inclination" in parenthesis. For THF, a greatsword is pretty hard to beat.

However, a greatsword may not fit with every THF character concept. Hate to bring it up and seem all fanboy, but there are some Samurai-playing die-hards out there who prefer to use a masterwork bastard sword simply because WoTC officially says that a katana is, for all intents and purposes, a masterwork bastard sword.

Before it begins, let me clarify that I am not trying to start a debate over what the stats for a katana should and/or should not be. This is not the place nor the time for such a thread.

I am merely pointing out that, some players may choose to THF with a bastard sword rather than a great sword simply out of flavor-preference.
Pegasos989
04-04-07, 03:13 PM I agree with you. Note I added "if that is your inclination" in parenthesis. For THF, a greatsword is pretty hard to beat.

Slightly offtopic but well, I think I already explained most of the ontopic...

Atually, Falchion beats greatsword at high levels.

2d6, 19/x2 is better than 2d4, 18/x2. However, 2d6 +39, 19/x2 is on par with 2d4 +39, 18/x2 and any higher damage bonus makes falchion better. Improved crit or keen brings the limit lower and 2d6+19, 17/x2 is on par with 2d4 +19, 15/x2 and any higher damage bonus turns the tide on falchion's side.

So while greatsword is better at low levels, falchion at high.

This doesn't include that everyone and their grandma is immune to crits at high levels (undead, constructs, fortification armors...) though...
jadehawk
04-04-07, 03:59 PM Slightly offtopic but well, I think I already explained most of the ontopic...

Atually, Falchion beats greatsword at high levels.

2d6, 19/x2 is better than 2d4, 18/x2. However, 2d6 +39, 19/x2 is on par with 2d4 +39, 18/x2 and any higher damage bonus makes falchion better. Improved crit or keen brings the limit lower and 2d6+19, 17/x2 is on par with 2d4 +19, 15/x2 and any higher damage bonus turns the tide on falchion's side.

So while greatsword is better at low levels, falchion at high.

This doesn't include that everyone and their grandma is immune to crits at high levels (undead, constructs, fortification armors...) though...

Yes keep in mind creatures immune to critical hits...but also failed critical hit confirmation checks, and the off chance that a 17 or 18 doesn't even hit (particularly with iterative attacks), indicating a miss instead of a critical threat. Two more points of average damage with a chance of four more points of damage on every successful hit is hard to pass up for the occasional extra critical hit. I would say falchion over greatsword at high levels is arguable, if not entirely up to personal preference.
CaoSlayer
04-04-07, 05:04 PM Bastard sword is more than +1 damage, since is a two handed weapon you get the extra hp and bonuses to disarm by example.
Slimgauge
04-04-07, 05:20 PM I'm not going to dispute anything Pegaso989 had to say. The OP did specify use with a shield and compared against the longsword, so I didn't want to bring up THF vs TWF vs S&S. Only considerations were Shield + Longsword vs Shield + Bastard Sword.
DarkRhystar
04-04-07, 05:30 PM 2d6, 19/x2 is better than 2d4, 18/x2. However, 2d6 +39, 19/x2 is on par with 2d4 +39, 18/x2 and any higher damage bonus makes falchion better. Improved crit or keen brings the limit lower and 2d6+19, 17/x2 is on par with 2d4 +19, 15/x2 and any higher damage bonus turns the tide on falchion's side.

Someone who actually did the math correctly and got the right answer.

Three things to add to this:

These numbers only hold true if the chance to hit the enemy is greater than 10% (at least an 18 will hit).

If Keen/IC, these numbers only hold true if the chance to hit the enemy is greater than 25% (at least a 15 will hit).

While they may be equal at +39 damage. The difference in average damage between the two doesn't even get up to +1 damage (in favor of the falchion) until +60-61 damage (95% hit rate, +79 damage at 50% hit rate).
Iarmeister
04-04-07, 05:32 PM I'm not going to dispute anything Pegaso989 had to say. The OP did specify use with a shield and compared against the longsword, so I didn't want to bring up THF vs TWF vs S&S. Only considerations were Shield + Longsword vs Shield + Bastard Sword.

True. My opinion would be to use a longsword + shield and spend the extra feat that would have to be spent on an exotic w.p. on something else.

Still, it was a good discussion on the benefits of THF, no? ;)
Deus_Proelii
04-04-07, 11:33 PM What they said.

Even if I were going to use a bastard sword I would use it two-handed. With power attack, that's twice the attack bonus penalty. With leap attack, that's three times!

The Exotic Weapon Master is a weird thing. On the one hand the Uncanny Blow ability encourages two-handed use of the bastard sword. On the other hand, you need EWP: Bastard Sword to enter the class. Meeeeh...
Norsesmithy
04-05-07, 01:05 AM The important part of Uncanny blow in the exotic weaponmaster is not the 2 instead of 1.5 str damage, but rather the 2 to 1 power attack ratio one handed.

Although I may get an additional 4 damage on my str 18 EWM two handing a bastard sword, the really juicy part is keeping my sheild bonus while still doing 2HF power attack damage.

At least I think that is how it works.
Pegasos989
04-05-07, 02:13 AM The important part of Uncanny blow in the exotic weaponmaster is not the 2 instead of 1.5 str damage, but rather the 2 to 1 power attack ratio one handed.

Although I may get an additional 4 damage on my str 18 EWM two handing a bastard sword, the really juicy part is keeping my sheild bonus while still doing 2HF power attack damage.

At least I think that is how it works.

If I read it correctly, that 2 to 1 ratio only applies when using it two-handed, so the normal two-handed ratio.

If it works 2 to 1 even in one handed, then it might indeed be worth it
Deus_Proelii
04-05-07, 03:16 AM The important part of Uncanny blow in the exotic weaponmaster is not the 2 instead of 1.5 str damage, but rather the 2 to 1 power attack ratio one handed.

Although I may get an additional 4 damage on my str 18 EWM two handing a bastard sword, the really juicy part is keeping my sheild bonus while still doing 2HF power attack damage.

At least I think that is how it works.

Eh? :confused:

Reading my own copy of CW, I fail to see how this is the case. The ability rather specifically states "when wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands..."
Slimgauge
04-05-07, 11:20 AM Are the two sentences are independent ? I've seen this argued both ways. This google search string will find most of the threads. site://boards1.wizards.com "Uncanny Blow" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3A%2F%2Fboards1.wizards.com+%22Un canny+Blow%22&btnG=Search)

I tend to want to treat them as independent, if for no other reason than to make this route an option players would consider, rather than reject out of hand for reasons already presented.
Finarin Panjoro
04-05-07, 11:39 AM There is a case where it is worth it. If you're a non-multi-class cleric who gets free weapon focus: bastard sword due to his gods War Domain chosen weapon then it can be worth the feat so that you can use a shield (since as a cleric you probably need its AC bonus).

The free weapon focus feat ups the average damage for wielding it one handed to far better than any other one-handed weapon choice a cleric gets.
Plothos
04-05-07, 02:29 PM I may be only remembering some random post and thus this isn't a reliable indicator, but I do recall someone saying the war domain grants you proficiency in the weapon as well. It's not stated, but maybe added in the faq or errata or something. Can anyone confirm this?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trolbri 04-04-07, 10:07 AM	Is the bastard sword worth the feat, compared to alongsword, if you want to use a shield in the other hand? This question has subquestions - is bastardsword worth it for at shield using figther? - is bastardsword worth it if you don't have the longsword preq?
Plothos 04-04-07, 10:19 AM	It's not generally considered worthwhile here on the boards, because there are better things to spend feats on. For example, weapon specialization gives you +2 to damage, while using a bastard sword instead of a longsword gives only +1 damage on average. However, fighters often have feats to burn, so it's not like you can't take weapon specialization (WS) AND bastard sword proficiency (BSP). So the real question is whether you have a feat to burn. BSP might not be better than WS, but it's probably better than, say, toughness. Is it better than combat expertise? Well, that's harder to say, and more in the realm of personal preference. If you don't have LSP, BSP becomes more appealing, certainly. The real question now is whetehr a character with a bastard sword and X number of feats is better than a character with a heavy mace or morningstar and X+1 feats. You still gain only +1 to damage, but you also gain an improved critical threat range. That makes BSP a nicer feat by comparison to its competition than it was when it added only +1 to damage. It might even compete with WS at this point.
draconic_swine 04-04-07, 10:57 AM	Plothos pretty much summed it up. If you have the feats to spare, it's an okay feat, but it's definitely never going to be a great use of a feat. I'd personally take Weapon Specialization: Longsword for a guaranteed +2 to damage, rather than a 10% getting 1 or 2 higher more than a longsword. 3-10 damage is nicer than 1-10 damage. Another thing to consider is that at higher levels the actual damage your weapon deals becomes rather insignificant. It ends up being about criticals and how much fixed damage you deal with each attack. If you're creating a character and are unsure whether or not to take EWP: Bastard Sword, I have a few suggestions for you. If you don't have longsword proficiency, and you really want your character to use a sword, then definitely go for the bastard sword. If you are proficient with a longsword and don't have a lot of feats to spend, then I'd highly suggest sticking with the longsword. If you're already proficient with the longsword and have a lot of feats to spend, then spending the feat on the bastard sword is okay (though still not entirely optimal). If, however, you are planning on taking a feat-intensive tree (such as whirlwind), I'd definitely suggest just sticking with the longsword.
Slimgauge 04-04-07, 11:04 AM	If you wish to go sword and shield, a reason to take weapon proficiency with a bastard sword is so you can later take levels in Complete Warrior's Exotic Weapons Master prestige class (one of the few things you can't do with a longsword). This gives you access to Uncanny Blow and some other things like Exotic Sunder or Show Off or Exotic Trip.
armnaxis 04-04-07, 11:20 AM	I must second slimgauge. Uncanny Blow is awesome if you carry a shield and have high STR. Moreover, you can let go the shield when you feel so and even profit more from a high STR score.
Plothos 04-04-07, 12:21 PM	Moreover, you can let go the shield when you feel so and even profit more from a high STR score.That's true regardless of which sword you're using. And doffing a shield is a bit more involved than merely dropping it. But the point that taking an exotic weapon proficiency feat may help you into a prestige class is another point in favor of EWP. I know of none besides the class mentioned, however, so if you're not eyeing that class, this is a non-issue.
tarkin 04-04-07, 01:04 PM	As a general rule, no, it is not worth the feat. However, there are certain builds that make it worthwhile. One of which is TWF using Oversized TWF. Then you wield two Bastard swords, one in each hand. In that case, it does become worth it.
Iarmeister 04-04-07, 01:34 PM	I'm suprised no one mentioned it: My suggestion would be to utilize a bastard sword (if that is your inclination) and instead of picking up the exotic w.p. to fight one handed, spend it on power attack instead. This way, when you fight two-handed with your bastard sword + the power attack, each point you spend on power attack is doubled when calculating damage on a successful hit. This is why a lot of melee combatants choose to fight with great swords + power attack.
Pegasos989 04-04-07, 01:53 PM	Well, I will give a long explanation of why it is not worth it, ever. Behold, the minmaxer is about to speak. First, I got to establish two basic facts: When fighting with sword and shield compared to two-handed fighting, you lose signifiant amount of damage output to get hit less often. However, your damage output would have killed the enemy faster and again you would have been hit less often. However, with sword and shield, enemy has time to think "I can't hit him, he damages me slowly... I'll skip him and kill his party!". If DM plays monsters intelligent instead of "I will attack the one hardest to hit", sword and board is bad combination 99% of the time. The only exception is if you use Two-weapon fighting with shield bash and a sword but that is in the next point. Also, if your DM allows animated shield enchantment, there is REALLY no reason to go sword and shield. Sorry, that is how 3.5e is built. (this sblock doesn't include the Jack B. Quick build of char op boards) With Two-handed fighting, you get 1.5x str to damage, with two-weapon fighting you get 1.0x + 0.5x. With two-handed fighting your weapon deals 2d6 damage, with two-weapon fighting 1d8+1d6 or so. It is cheaper to get two weapons of +2 than one of +4 but if you want enchantments like "of speed", TWF costs more. They might be about balanced but with TWF, you deal smaller portition of damage on attack of opportunities --And full attak --And charge are subject to twice the amount of damage reduction get less benefit from haste got to take -2 to each attack get to power attack for worse ratios got to spend 3 feats *got to keep high dexterity Getting weapon specialization twice to damage is REALLY not even NEARLY enough to make TWF viable after level 10 or so. TWF CAN be used efficiently, if you get good bonus on damage of each attack, such as rogues. If rogue flanks and gets +10d6 sneak attack on 6 attacks instead of 3, it is worth it. However, without extra source of damage, TWF is not worth it. You can start arguing if you wish but those are facts. Go to character oprimization boards and ask the experts if you wish. So, let's assume those were right... Now that this is over... EWP Bastard sword is not worth it in sword and shield, because after low levels, it is inferior (as mentioned). EWP Bastard sword is not worth it in TWF because if you use TWF at high levels, you should be a rogue or such (and using weapon finesse, which doesn't work with bastard sword). EWP Bastard sword is QUITE not worth it for exotic weapon master, because you get 0.5x STR extra damage for what? You use a feat and a level of class abilities. How much damage should we get from that? +3 at minium. Well, because greatsword makes inheritedly +1.5 more damage, half our STR mod has to be +4.5, so it becomes about even to greatsword at the time we have +9 str mod. (Naturally, I would never spend a feat and a level for +3 or even +5 damage, but I guess most people don't like optimizing as much...) So EWP Bastard sword is simply not worth it.
Pegasos989 04-04-07, 01:55 PM	I'm suprised no one mentioned it: My suggestion would be to utilize a bastard sword (if that is your inclination) and instead of picking up the exotic w.p. to fight one handed, spend it on power attack instead. This way, when you fight two-handed with your bastard sword + the power attack, each point you spend on power attack is doubled when calculating damage on a successful hit. This is why a lot of melee combatants choose to fight with great swords + power attack. If you go that route, you are exactly as using greatsword but deal 1.5 points less damage (1d10 vs 2d6.). As such, it is not worth it in that case either.
Iarmeister 04-04-07, 02:11 PM	If you go that route, you are exactly as using greatsword but deal 1.5 points less damage (1d10 vs 2d6.). As such, it is not worth it in that case either. I agree with you. Note I added "if that is your inclination" in parenthesis. For THF, a greatsword is pretty hard to beat. However, a greatsword may not fit with every THF character concept. Hate to bring it up and seem all fanboy, but there are some Samurai-playing die-hards out there who prefer to use a masterwork bastard sword simply because WoTC officially says that a katana is, for all intents and purposes, a masterwork bastard sword. Before it begins, let me clarify that I am not trying to start a debate over what the stats for a katana should and/or should not be. This is not the place nor the time for such a thread. I am merely pointing out that, some players may choose to THF with a bastard sword rather than a great sword simply out of flavor-preference.
Pegasos989 04-04-07, 03:13 PM	I agree with you. Note I added "if that is your inclination" in parenthesis. For THF, a greatsword is pretty hard to beat. Slightly offtopic but well, I think I already explained most of the ontopic... Atually, Falchion beats greatsword at high levels. 2d6, 19/x2 is better than 2d4, 18/x2. However, 2d6 +39, 19/x2 is on par with 2d4 +39, 18/x2 and any higher damage bonus makes falchion better. Improved crit or keen brings the limit lower and 2d6+19, 17/x2 is on par with 2d4 +19, 15/x2 and any higher damage bonus turns the tide on falchion's side. So while greatsword is better at low levels, falchion at high. This doesn't include that everyone and their grandma is immune to crits at high levels (undead, constructs, fortification armors...) though...
jadehawk 04-04-07, 03:59 PM	Slightly offtopic but well, I think I already explained most of the ontopic... Atually, Falchion beats greatsword at high levels. 2d6, 19/x2 is better than 2d4, 18/x2. However, 2d6 +39, 19/x2 is on par with 2d4 +39, 18/x2 and any higher damage bonus makes falchion better. Improved crit or keen brings the limit lower and 2d6+19, 17/x2 is on par with 2d4 +19, 15/x2 and any higher damage bonus turns the tide on falchion's side. So while greatsword is better at low levels, falchion at high. This doesn't include that everyone and their grandma is immune to crits at high levels (undead, constructs, fortification armors...) though... Yes keep in mind creatures immune to critical hits...but also failed critical hit confirmation checks, and the off chance that a 17 or 18 doesn't even hit (particularly with iterative attacks), indicating a miss instead of a critical threat. Two more points of average damage with a chance of four more points of damage on every successful hit is hard to pass up for the occasional extra critical hit. I would say falchion over greatsword at high levels is arguable, if not entirely up to personal preference.
CaoSlayer 04-04-07, 05:04 PM	Bastard sword is more than +1 damage, since is a two handed weapon you get the extra hp and bonuses to disarm by example.
Slimgauge 04-04-07, 05:20 PM	I'm not going to dispute anything Pegaso989 had to say. The OP did specify use with a shield and compared against the longsword, so I didn't want to bring up THF vs TWF vs S&S. Only considerations were Shield + Longsword vs Shield + Bastard Sword.
DarkRhystar 04-04-07, 05:30 PM	2d6, 19/x2 is better than 2d4, 18/x2. However, 2d6 +39, 19/x2 is on par with 2d4 +39, 18/x2 and any higher damage bonus makes falchion better. Improved crit or keen brings the limit lower and 2d6+19, 17/x2 is on par with 2d4 +19, 15/x2 and any higher damage bonus turns the tide on falchion's side. Someone who actually did the math correctly and got the right answer. Three things to add to this: These numbers only hold true if the chance to hit the enemy is greater than 10% (at least an 18 will hit). If Keen/IC, these numbers only hold true if the chance to hit the enemy is greater than 25% (at least a 15 will hit). While they may be equal at +39 damage. The difference in average damage between the two doesn't even get up to +1 damage (in favor of the falchion) until +60-61 damage (95% hit rate, +79 damage at 50% hit rate).
Iarmeister 04-04-07, 05:32 PM	I'm not going to dispute anything Pegaso989 had to say. The OP did specify use with a shield and compared against the longsword, so I didn't want to bring up THF vs TWF vs S&S. Only considerations were Shield + Longsword vs Shield + Bastard Sword. True. My opinion would be to use a longsword + shield and spend the extra feat that would have to be spent on an exotic w.p. on something else. Still, it was a good discussion on the benefits of THF, no? ;)
Deus_Proelii 04-04-07, 11:33 PM	What they said. Even if I were going to use a bastard sword I would use it two-handed. With power attack, that's twice the attack bonus penalty. With leap attack, that's three times! The Exotic Weapon Master is a weird thing. On the one hand the Uncanny Blow ability encourages two-handed use of the bastard sword. On the other hand, you need EWP: Bastard Sword to enter the class. Meeeeh...
Norsesmithy 04-05-07, 01:05 AM	The important part of Uncanny blow in the exotic weaponmaster is not the 2 instead of 1.5 str damage, but rather the 2 to 1 power attack ratio one handed. Although I may get an additional 4 damage on my str 18 EWM two handing a bastard sword, the really juicy part is keeping my sheild bonus while still doing 2HF power attack damage. At least I think that is how it works.
Pegasos989 04-05-07, 02:13 AM	The important part of Uncanny blow in the exotic weaponmaster is not the 2 instead of 1.5 str damage, but rather the 2 to 1 power attack ratio one handed. Although I may get an additional 4 damage on my str 18 EWM two handing a bastard sword, the really juicy part is keeping my sheild bonus while still doing 2HF power attack damage. At least I think that is how it works. If I read it correctly, that 2 to 1 ratio only applies when using it two-handed, so the normal two-handed ratio. If it works 2 to 1 even in one handed, then it might indeed be worth it
Deus_Proelii 04-05-07, 03:16 AM	The important part of Uncanny blow in the exotic weaponmaster is not the 2 instead of 1.5 str damage, but rather the 2 to 1 power attack ratio one handed. Although I may get an additional 4 damage on my str 18 EWM two handing a bastard sword, the really juicy part is keeping my sheild bonus while still doing 2HF power attack damage. At least I think that is how it works. Eh? :confused: Reading my own copy of CW, I fail to see how this is the case. The ability rather specifically states "when wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands..."
Slimgauge 04-05-07, 11:20 AM	Are the two sentences are independent ? I've seen this argued both ways. This google search string will find most of the threads. site://boards1.wizards.com "Uncanny Blow" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3A%2F%2Fboards1.wizards.com+%22Un canny+Blow%22&btnG=Search) I tend to want to treat them as independent, if for no other reason than to make this route an option players would consider, rather than reject out of hand for reasons already presented.
Finarin Panjoro 04-05-07, 11:39 AM	There is a case where it is worth it. If you're a non-multi-class cleric who gets free weapon focus: bastard sword due to his gods War Domain chosen weapon then it can be worth the feat so that you can use a shield (since as a cleric you probably need its AC bonus). The free weapon focus feat ups the average damage for wielding it one handed to far better than any other one-handed weapon choice a cleric gets.
Plothos 04-05-07, 02:29 PM	I may be only remembering some random post and thus this isn't a reliable indicator, but I do recall someone saying the war domain grants you proficiency in the weapon as well. It's not stated, but maybe added in the faq or errata or something. Can anyone confirm this?