Bastard swords [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bastard swords [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ancient Wyrm
06-19-05, 11:58 PM How were bastard swords used historically? Somehow this worse-greatsword-without-the-feat/better-longsword-with-it take D&D has seems to be somewhat lacking.
Dalthbar
06-20-05, 12:46 AM I'm trying to draw this from vague memory, so I claim none of this to be 100% accurate.

Weren't "bastard swords" traditionally called "hand-and-a-half swords" because of the fact that they had a hilt long enough to use your off-hand to apply a more powerful blow? Doesn't this imply that that's exactly how they were -supposed- to be used? In a similar way that a greatsword is supposed to be used with two hands and is a martial weapon, I do not see why technically a bastard sword isn't a martial weapon with the option of using it as a two or one-handed weapon.

In my perfect world, I would make the bastard sword slightly less powerful than the longsword one-handed and slightly less powerful than the greatsword two-handed but allow someone with a free hand to switch between one-handed and two-handed as they saw fit to take advantage of the two modes and the 1.5x Str Mod while wielding it two-handed.

Granted this could easily turn out to be a bit clunky, but since that's how I believe the weapon was typically used, give it that versatility but at the cost of less damage than their single-purposed cousins. (e.g., a good trade-off for the option of one or two-handedness)
Elthbert
06-20-05, 03:25 AM No actually bastard sword is the correct name although it directly relates to the Hilt not the sword. A bastard sword is really just a Longsword ( which is not a D&D longsword, That would have been called an Arming Sword. ) Anyway the hilt was designed to allow easier use of it one handed( you can use a Longsword onehanded an actual Longsword not an Arming sword though it is normally a two handed weapon ) butthe Hilt makes it much easier. I Don't really see anything in D&D except the bastard sword which corralates to an Historical Longsword so the bastard sword ( a longsword with a bastard hilt) will do. Bastard?longswords where normally not used with a shield and where capable of doing tremendous damage, still the ability to use one hand allows them to be used while using the other hand for grappling, disarming ect( it also lets you change the striking distance of your weapon). I think the way D&D does them is fairly acurate, much more so than many many of their weapons.
wordserpent
06-20-05, 05:13 AM Check out this reprint of a medieval fighting manual for some diagrams on the use of the bastard sword (langschwert).

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1853675822/qid=1119258513/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-5308309-9464103?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Vahenir
06-20-05, 07:57 AM Ta-da. Here I am, because we're talking about swords.

The historical 'bastard sword' went by many names. War sword. Arming sword. Bastard sword. Hand-and-a-half sword. Longsword.

Many of these 'titles' crisscrossed between different swords. An arming sword could be strictly one-handed, as could a war sword. A longsword could be either a larger-end bastard sword, or a two-hand sword (it never referred to a single-hander).

The problem with the D&D bastard sword is that it does not accurately reflect its historical counterpart. And perhaps rightly so - if it did, the longsword would be underpowered.

Historically, the bastard sword was an arming sword - with a hilt designed to be long enough for a two-hand grip when necessary. But the sword was still PRIMARILY a single-hand sword, that could be used two-handed.

And to a modern scholar, there is little to no distinction between a hand-and-a-half sword, and a large arming sword. They're the same thing. As Elthbert pointed out - the bastard sword's name moreso refers to its hilt - which is made to accomodate a two-hand grip (which many earlier arming swords were not able to do, or at least didn't do well).

With all that in mind, here's what I do:

Longsword stats: Longsword stats, in my games, reflect both single-hand arming swords, and most bastard swords. Remember that you can hold a longsword in two-hands to gain 1.5x your Strength bonus to damage.

I consider the longer hilt of a bastard sword to be a cosmetic difference - and each player is encouraged to decide the basic appearance of their weapon.

Bastard Sword stats: I use these stats for two-hand swords of the lower-end in size, historically known as "long-swords." These swords were extremely fast, agile two-handers. In a pinch, you could use it single-handed, but you had to have a decent amount of arm-strength, and the weapon was still a bit awkward.

In my games, also, longswords can be finessed, as can bastard swords when used two-handed.

You can also view many historical fighting manuals, and some interesting dissertations on the subject of weaponry, at the ARMA's homepage. www.thehaca.com

Very occasionally their information is misleading or faulty - but usually they have very accurate and sensical commentary and articles. Enjoy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ancient Wyrm 06-19-05, 11:58 PM	How were bastard swords used historically? Somehow this worse-greatsword-without-the-feat/better-longsword-with-it take D&D has seems to be somewhat lacking.
Dalthbar 06-20-05, 12:46 AM	I'm trying to draw this from vague memory, so I claim none of this to be 100% accurate. Weren't "bastard swords" traditionally called "hand-and-a-half swords" because of the fact that they had a hilt long enough to use your off-hand to apply a more powerful blow? Doesn't this imply that that's exactly how they were -supposed- to be used? In a similar way that a greatsword is supposed to be used with two hands and is a martial weapon, I do not see why technically a bastard sword isn't a martial weapon with the option of using it as a two or one-handed weapon. In my perfect world, I would make the bastard sword slightly less powerful than the longsword one-handed and slightly less powerful than the greatsword two-handed but allow someone with a free hand to switch between one-handed and two-handed as they saw fit to take advantage of the two modes and the 1.5x Str Mod while wielding it two-handed. Granted this could easily turn out to be a bit clunky, but since that's how I believe the weapon was typically used, give it that versatility but at the cost of less damage than their single-purposed cousins. (e.g., a good trade-off for the option of one or two-handedness)
Elthbert 06-20-05, 03:25 AM	No actually bastard sword is the correct name although it directly relates to the Hilt not the sword. A bastard sword is really just a Longsword ( which is not a D&D longsword, That would have been called an Arming Sword. ) Anyway the hilt was designed to allow easier use of it one handed( you can use a Longsword onehanded an actual Longsword not an Arming sword though it is normally a two handed weapon ) butthe Hilt makes it much easier. I Don't really see anything in D&D except the bastard sword which corralates to an Historical Longsword so the bastard sword ( a longsword with a bastard hilt) will do. Bastard?longswords where normally not used with a shield and where capable of doing tremendous damage, still the ability to use one hand allows them to be used while using the other hand for grappling, disarming ect( it also lets you change the striking distance of your weapon). I think the way D&D does them is fairly acurate, much more so than many many of their weapons.
wordserpent 06-20-05, 05:13 AM	Check out this reprint of a medieval fighting manual for some diagrams on the use of the bastard sword (langschwert). http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1853675822/qid=1119258513/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-5308309-9464103?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Vahenir 06-20-05, 07:57 AM	Ta-da. Here I am, because we're talking about swords. The historical 'bastard sword' went by many names. War sword. Arming sword. Bastard sword. Hand-and-a-half sword. Longsword. Many of these 'titles' crisscrossed between different swords. An arming sword could be strictly one-handed, as could a war sword. A longsword could be either a larger-end bastard sword, or a two-hand sword (it never referred to a single-hander). The problem with the D&D bastard sword is that it does not accurately reflect its historical counterpart. And perhaps rightly so - if it did, the longsword would be underpowered. Historically, the bastard sword was an arming sword - with a hilt designed to be long enough for a two-hand grip when necessary. But the sword was still PRIMARILY a single-hand sword, that could be used two-handed. And to a modern scholar, there is little to no distinction between a hand-and-a-half sword, and a large arming sword. They're the same thing. As Elthbert pointed out - the bastard sword's name moreso refers to its hilt - which is made to accomodate a two-hand grip (which many earlier arming swords were not able to do, or at least didn't do well). With all that in mind, here's what I do: Longsword stats: Longsword stats, in my games, reflect both single-hand arming swords, and most bastard swords. Remember that you can hold a longsword in two-hands to gain 1.5x your Strength bonus to damage. I consider the longer hilt of a bastard sword to be a cosmetic difference - and each player is encouraged to decide the basic appearance of their weapon. Bastard Sword stats: I use these stats for two-hand swords of the lower-end in size, historically known as "long-swords." These swords were extremely fast, agile two-handers. In a pinch, you could use it single-handed, but you had to have a decent amount of arm-strength, and the weapon was still a bit awkward. In my games, also, longswords can be finessed, as can bastard swords when used two-handed. You can also view many historical fighting manuals, and some interesting dissertations on the subject of weaponry, at the ARMA's homepage. www.thehaca.com Very occasionally their information is misleading or faulty - but usually they have very accurate and sensical commentary and articles. Enjoy.