Bastardsword, two-handed and single-handed in one package? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bastardsword, two-handed and single-handed in one package? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Atar
05-24-05, 04:32 PM Okay,

something is unclear to me, and has been for a while now:
Can you switch the Bastardsword between one-handed use and two-handed use if you have both Exotic and Martial weapons feats?

Because that would be pretty neat. Can't find this anywhere, and the search seems to be out on these forums. This question also goes for the Dwarven Waraxe and other similar weapons, by the way.

Thanks in advance, Atar
Goat Face
05-24-05, 04:39 PM Yes you can!

That applies to the Dwarven Waraxe, as well as the Maul (from Complete Warrior).
chocobochicken
05-24-05, 04:41 PM Yes. You can wield any one-handed weapon with two hands. Doing so grants you 1.5*Str damage, extra benefits from Power Attack, and depending on who you ask, bonuses on disarm and sunder checks (at least as far as the FAQ is concerned). You don't even need to have martial weapon proficiency as long as you have the exotic weapon proficiency. You can even do this with normal one-handed weapons, such as the longsword.
Atar
05-24-05, 04:47 PM Wow, thanks for the quick reply. And where'd you find that info? Especially on the longsword and such?

Does that mean you can wield a kukri two-handed and recieve x1.5 str bonus? :D
Ceirren
05-24-05, 05:08 PM It's all in the PHB... You can wield all 1h weapons with 2 hands (except for light weapons). Its on page.....113

I looked this up a while back after my lvl 3 fighter lost a duel with a high level fighter. I realised that if i had dropped my short sword and wielded my +1 Longsword with both hands i woulda gotten a lot more help with my attack bonus...
Vahenir
05-24-05, 05:22 PM There's a big "if" in there that needs to be stressed. You can wield a one-hand weapon in two hands IF that weapon is not, in fact, a LIGHT weapon. Light weapons gain no benefit from being wielded in two-hands.

But all normal "One-Handed" weapons -can- benefit from two-handed use.
mvincent
05-24-05, 06:10 PM There's a big "if" in there that needs to be stressed. You can wield a one-hand weapon in two hands IF that weapon is not, in fact, a LIGHT weapon.Although Ceirren noted that just before you posted (no biggie), you might also note that (in D&D terminology) a "One-Handed" weapon and a "Light" weapon are two different items.
Vahenir
05-24-05, 06:43 PM Although Ceirren noted that just before you posted (no biggie), you might also note that (in D&D terminology) a "One-Handed" weapon and a "Light" weapon are two different items.

Definitely. But for a newer player, or someone who might not follow that logic - it's important to make a pointed note of it. Since a light weapon is, for all intents and purposes, one-handed, the terminology might confuse some people. E.G. "A light weapon is held in one hand, so it's a one-hand weapon.."

I was just making sure the distinction was noted.
Thorak
05-24-05, 08:54 PM The bastard sword is not, ever, a two-handed weapon. It can be used two-handed as a martial weapon. This means, in specific terms, that it can be used as a "one handed weapon in two hands" as a martial weapon. Not a two-handed weapon.

This is important, because while you do get the bonuses with Str damage and Power Attack, you don't get the bonuses to Disarm or Sunder checks. Just like you never do with a longsword, even wielded in two hands.

In D&D, you have to be careful about your terms. A "two-handed weapon" is not the same as a "weapon wielded in two hands". It can be, but they refer to two different things; the effort typically required/size of the weapon, and the effort actually being used. Typically, you can't use less effort than the minimum, but you can use more. For instance, you can wield a Light weapon in two hands. You just get no benefit from doing so, and possibly look silly.
Atar
05-25-05, 12:38 AM Thanks for the detailed answers everybody. And I was asking because it will mean versatility for a fighter I'm creating in my mind :)

Ta, Atar
pawsplay
05-25-05, 12:47 AM It can be used two-handed as a martial weapon.

That would make it a two-handed martial weapon. If they wanted to say it could be used as a martial weapon "in two hands," I'm sure they would have said that.
Mellowship Slinky
05-25-05, 12:50 AM They did:

A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
Ranger REG
05-25-05, 03:01 AM Okay,

something is unclear to me, and has been for a while now:
Can you switch the Bastardsword between one-handed use and two-handed use if you have both Exotic and Martial weapons feats?
:uh-huh:

Umm...

For nonmartial classes (i.e., those who do not have starting weapon proficiency in all martial weapons (plural)), you only need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) feat to use said weapon one-handed and two-handed. Technically, just that feat.

Martial classes can use the bastard sword without nonproficiency attack penalty but is limited to two-handed use.
Johannixx
05-25-05, 03:55 AM This is why the bastard sword is worth a feat: it's just so versatile! Well, not really, since you can do the same with a longsword... But still, my Fighter/Barbarian in our Midnight campaign wields an adamantine bastard sword and a large steel shield. When things get hairy, and major damage is called for, the shield gets dropped and the big bastard gets double-handed with rage and power attack.
Thorak
05-25-05, 09:33 AM That would make it a two-handed martial weapon. If they wanted to say it could be used as a martial weapon "in two hands," I'm sure they would have said that.
That's exactly the point. That doesn't make it a two-handed weapon. Any more than wielding a dagger two-handed makes the dagger a two-handed weapon.

You want to look up the subsection "one-handed weapons wielded in two hands". That's what covers this case. How many hands you actually have on the weapon is not related to whether a weapon is one-handed or two-handed. That's a term based on the weapon size relative to the wielder (which admittedly often affects how many hands are needed, but there are exceptions which, in the end, don't change the weapon's class.)
babysamurai
05-25-05, 10:30 AM And the rapier is a one-handed weapon that can't be used two handed (sorry, just for the record).
Thanatos02
05-25-05, 10:56 AM Most of this stuff can be found simply by critically reading the rulebook, with the exception of Bastard Sword rulings.

It seems that the fuzziness that stems from the difference in Martial, Exotic, One-handed, 2-handed, and the comglomeration of these traits as found in the Bastard Sword create a problem amoung some people that inevitably boils down to table rulings.

As it stands, though, 1-Handed Weapons may be used in two hands. Light Weapons cannot. Light Weapons cannot be used to make Power Attacks. Light Weapons may have Weapon Finesse applied to them.

Unless stated by the rules, if a weapon falls into a class that cannot execute a maneuver and falls into a second class that can at the same time, then it still cannot do so.

For example - A Kukri is a One-Handed Weapon, which can usually be used in two hands. However, it is a Light Weapon, so it cannot.

A longsword is a One-Handed Weapon, but it is not Light, and cannot be finessed.
Ossyrian Ush'Bel
05-25-05, 12:17 PM I realised that if i had dropped my short sword and wielded my +1 Longsword with both hands i woulda gotten a lot more help with my attack bonus...

I was always under the impression that the 1.5xStr applied only to damage rolls, does it also apply to attack rolls? If so I have some attack bonuses to rework.
Cardinal Teplin
05-25-05, 12:23 PM That's exactly the point. That doesn't make it a two-handed weapon. Any more than wielding a dagger two-handed makes the dagger a two-handed weapon.

Unfortunately, the FAQ disagrees with you, classing a bastard sword as a two-handed weapon that can be used in one hand if you have the right feat.

A ruling that annoyed me, but pretty clear for all that.
Atar
05-25-05, 12:55 PM Yeah, thats what I understood aswell from the description. Hence the topic.
The way I think its meant is that when you use it as a Martial weapon its basicly a 'greatsword' that does 1d10 damage instead of 2d6. Then when you really get the hang of it (Exotic profeciency) you can use it as both a 'greatsword' and a 'longsword'...
Thats what I understood from the description and thats why I asked :) Seems very st00pid to go for a greatsword if you have the feat to spare. Versatility is good.
mvincent
05-25-05, 01:16 PM I was always under the impression that the 1.5xStr applied only to damage rolls, Correct

does it also apply to attack rolls? No. I believe Ceirren might've been referring to the fact that he wouldn't have had any TWF attack roll penalties if he had used just his longsword.
Thorak
05-25-05, 01:46 PM Unfortunately, the FAQ disagrees with you, classing a bastard sword as a two-handed weapon that can be used in one hand if you have the right feat.

A ruling that annoyed me, but pretty clear for all that.
The FAQ is also completely wrong.

And, for what it's worth, in the last debate we had on this, I contacted Custserv, who agreed with me and passed the issue on to the devteam.

The only thing that can contradict a primary source, according to the Errata, is the Errata. The FAQ is not Errata. The PHB is the primary source for weapons. That FAQ entry even says itself that it's contradicting the PHB, making it clear that it is in fact the one in error and the one that should be ignored.

And, on a side note; you can wield a light weapon in two hands, guys. You just get no benefit. I cite the PHB;
"Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only."

For that matter, you can wield a rapier in two hands, too. The PHB only says "You can't wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage."

Emphasis mine. You can do it, you just don't get the strength bonus in each case.
chocobochicken
05-26-05, 09:03 AM For what it's worth, Thorak and I beat this horse a few weeks ago on this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=423099), and the debate ended with both of us submitting the question to WotC Customer Service with the specific request that they address the issue further in the FAQ/Errata. I'm perfectly comfortable with the FAQ answers as they stand right now. I think it's reasonable, and I believe there are ways of interpreting the existing RAW that support this. However, Thorak disagrees with it, and I guess I can understand why.

Until the developers acknowledge our request and print an updated FAQ/Eratta that resolves these discrepencies, the issue is still debatable. Your best bet is to ask your DM. If your DM reads the FAQ entry and is okay with it, then you can receive that +4 bonus on sunder/disarm checks when wielding it two-handed. Regardless, you can still apply 1.5*Strength to damage and 2*Power Attack using it two-handed with or without the FAQ.
Thanatos02
05-26-05, 09:54 AM Thanks for the clarification on Light Two-Handed usage. It seems obvious that you might be able to use it with two hand (or at least describe yourself as such) but the rules seem to state in no uncertain term that it can be done, which I missed. ^^

Oh, and personally, I'd lean towards Thorak's view on the usage and classification of the Bastard Sword, but, like in all games, the final decision is up to the DM. Whatever it is, it should remain consistant throughout the game under normal circumstances to all players and NPCs. ^.~
Johannixx
05-26-05, 11:48 AM My thought on the matter is that the 'two-handed' bonus on resisting disarms is due to the fact that the weapon has sufficient room to put both hands on the weapon, rather than one hand on top of the hand actually holding the weapon. Since the bastard sword has enough handle for two hands to comfortably grip the weapon, I'd give it the bonus if used two-handed.

Just my $.02
Thorak
05-26-05, 12:31 PM My thought on the matter is that the 'two-handed' bonus on resisting disarms is due to the fact that the weapon has sufficient room to put both hands on the weapon, rather than one hand on top of the hand actually holding the weapon. Since the bastard sword has enough handle for two hands to comfortably grip the weapon, I'd give it the bonus if used two-handed.

Just my $.02
I understand that point of view, and don't necessarily disagree, but currently the bonus is given to two-handed weapons, not weapons wielded in two hands. And those aren't the same. You can wield a short sword in two hands, and it's not a two-handed weapon, for instance.

As for bastard swords, the main reason I dislike it is that it asserts that bastard swords are two-handed weapons, and two-handed weapons get 1.5x Str bonus to damage. Period. Regardless of how many hands. Normally, they require 2, but the bastard sword, according to the FAQ, has a special feature letting you only use one.

Of course, then the FAQ claims the weapon somehow magically changes size category depending on how many hands you use. Which means not only that the sword itself actually changes size (as one-handed weapons are one size category smaller than two-handed ones), but also that it changes in hitpoints, for Sunder. And I don't see why my battered sword would fall apart just because I take one hand off it.

I'm not saying the FAQ's version couldn't be made to work, but as it stands it's a bit ridiculous. In my contacts with custserv, I made it clear that my primary intent wasn't to get it made how I think is "right", but just made so that the rules are consistent, one way or the other.
Johannixx
05-26-05, 02:31 PM I think that's way too overcomplicated, Thorak. I tend to keep things simple. The bastard sword is a one-handed weapon, and should get hardness and HP as such. I might be tempted to split the difference between one-handed and two-handed weapons for it, but I don't know if I care that much. My group uses Sunder so rarely that it has never really come up except against a greatclub some years ago. As for the damage bonus, my thoughts on that are pretty simple as well: if you have two hands on it, and it's not a light weapon, you get 1.5x your Str bonus to damage. If you don't have two hands on it, you don't. Period. That means no 1.5x bonus when using a lance in one hand while mounted, despite the fact that it's normally a 'two-handed weapon'. That means no 1.5x bonus while using 3.0 Monkey Grip to wield a greatsword in one hand.

Your example of the shortsword fits in with my logic as well: there isn't enough room on a shortsword for a proper two-handed grip. On a proper bastard sword, there is. Therein lies the difference. And, let's face it, compared to almost all other two-handed martial weapons, the bastard sword is remarkably underpowered. Keeping it from granting the bonuses to resist disarms is only making it more so. You spend a feat to use a bastard sword in one hand, because it's versatile. It's like a lighter greatsword, or a heavier arming sword. Let's keep the versatility, shall we?
Thorak
05-26-05, 03:33 PM I think that's way too overcomplicated, Thorak. I tend to keep things simple. The bastard sword is a one-handed weapon, and should get hardness and HP as such. I might be tempted to split the difference between one-handed and two-handed weapons for it, but I don't know if I care that much. My group uses Sunder so rarely that it has never really come up except against a greatclub some years ago. As for the damage bonus, my thoughts on that are pretty simple as well: if you have two hands on it, and it's not a light weapon, you get 1.5x your Str bonus to damage. If you don't have two hands on it, you don't. Period. That means no 1.5x bonus when using a lance in one hand while mounted, despite the fact that it's normally a 'two-handed weapon'. That means no 1.5x bonus while using 3.0 Monkey Grip to wield a greatsword in one hand.

Your example of the shortsword fits in with my logic as well: there isn't enough room on a shortsword for a proper two-handed grip. On a proper bastard sword, there is. Therein lies the difference. And, let's face it, compared to almost all other two-handed martial weapons, the bastard sword is remarkably underpowered. Keeping it from granting the bonuses to resist disarms is only making it more so. You spend a feat to use a bastard sword in one hand, because it's versatile. It's like a lighter greatsword, or a heavier arming sword. Let's keep the versatility, shall we?
It might be weak compared to two-handed weapons, but that's because it isn't a two-handed weapon. It's stronger than any martial one-handed weapon, though, which is why it's Exotic.

It's a one-handed Exotic weapon. Exactly as the PHB describes. When wielded in two hands, whether as a martial weapon or not, it's a "one-handed weapon wielded in two hands". Simple, clean, and efficient. It doesn't get the two-handed weapon bonuses to Disarm for the same reason a Longsword doesn't, wielded in two hands. If you houserule to have those bonuses apply based on how many hands are used, that's fine; I happen to agree with it. But that's not what the standard rules say.
mvincent
05-26-05, 03:39 PM As side note (in my games) I would have anyone holding a weapon in two hands be harder to disarm (yes... even if that were a light weapon).

The Str multiplier doesn't seem to be an issue, and if the sunder issue ever came up in a game, I'd probably treat it as a one-handed weapon (since it's listed that way in the PHB), but it doesn't seem enough to worry 'bout.
Tony Vargas
05-26-05, 04:04 PM As side note (in my games) I would have anyone holding a weapon in two hands be harder to disarm (yes... even if that were a light weapon).That's how it worked in 3.0, BTW.
Johannixx
05-26-05, 05:00 PM It might be weak compared to two-handed weapons, but that's because it isn't a two-handed weapon. It's stronger than any martial one-handed weapon, though, which is why it's Exotic.

It's a one-handed Exotic weapon. Exactly as the PHB describes. When wielded in two hands, whether as a martial weapon or not, it's a "one-handed weapon wielded in two hands". Simple, clean, and efficient. It doesn't get the two-handed weapon bonuses to Disarm for the same reason a Longsword doesn't, wielded in two hands. If you houserule to have those bonuses apply based on how many hands are used, that's fine; I happen to agree with it. But that's not what the standard rules say.

I'm all for following the rules, as long as they make sense. This is one case where they do not.
mvincent
05-26-05, 05:22 PM It doesn't get the two-handed weapon bonuses to Disarm for the same reason a Longsword doesn't, wielded in two hands. If you houserule to have those bonuses apply based on how many hands are used, that's fine; I happen to agree with it. But that's not what the standard rules say.It'd be a good house-rule.

Note though: players can treat bastard swords as two-handed weapons without an actual "house"-rule, because the FAQ supports this (making a DM justified in using this method without deviating from the "official" rules). But a DM would also be justified in treating it as a one-handed weapon (as the RAW interpretation from the PHB).

The FAQ deviates from RAW in many other instances as well... but generally I stick with the FAQ.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Atar 05-24-05, 04:32 PM	Okay, something is unclear to me, and has been for a while now: Can you switch the Bastardsword between one-handed use and two-handed use if you have both Exotic and Martial weapons feats? Because that would be pretty neat. Can't find this anywhere, and the search seems to be out on these forums. This question also goes for the Dwarven Waraxe and other similar weapons, by the way. Thanks in advance, Atar
Goat Face 05-24-05, 04:39 PM	Yes you can! That applies to the Dwarven Waraxe, as well as the Maul (from Complete Warrior).
chocobochicken 05-24-05, 04:41 PM	Yes. You can wield any one-handed weapon with two hands. Doing so grants you 1.5*Str damage, extra benefits from Power Attack, and depending on who you ask, bonuses on disarm and sunder checks (at least as far as the FAQ is concerned). You don't even need to have martial weapon proficiency as long as you have the exotic weapon proficiency. You can even do this with normal one-handed weapons, such as the longsword.
Atar 05-24-05, 04:47 PM	Wow, thanks for the quick reply. And where'd you find that info? Especially on the longsword and such? Does that mean you can wield a kukri two-handed and recieve x1.5 str bonus? :D
Ceirren 05-24-05, 05:08 PM	It's all in the PHB... You can wield all 1h weapons with 2 hands (except for light weapons). Its on page.....113 I looked this up a while back after my lvl 3 fighter lost a duel with a high level fighter. I realised that if i had dropped my short sword and wielded my +1 Longsword with both hands i woulda gotten a lot more help with my attack bonus...
Vahenir 05-24-05, 05:22 PM	There's a big "if" in there that needs to be stressed. You can wield a one-hand weapon in two hands IF that weapon is not, in fact, a LIGHT weapon. Light weapons gain no benefit from being wielded in two-hands. But all normal "One-Handed" weapons -can- benefit from two-handed use.
mvincent 05-24-05, 06:10 PM	There's a big "if" in there that needs to be stressed. You can wield a one-hand weapon in two hands IF that weapon is not, in fact, a LIGHT weapon.Although Ceirren noted that just before you posted (no biggie), you might also note that (in D&D terminology) a "One-Handed" weapon and a "Light" weapon are two different items.
Vahenir 05-24-05, 06:43 PM	Although Ceirren noted that just before you posted (no biggie), you might also note that (in D&D terminology) a "One-Handed" weapon and a "Light" weapon are two different items. Definitely. But for a newer player, or someone who might not follow that logic - it's important to make a pointed note of it. Since a light weapon is, for all intents and purposes, one-handed, the terminology might confuse some people. E.G. "A light weapon is held in one hand, so it's a one-hand weapon.." I was just making sure the distinction was noted.
Thorak 05-24-05, 08:54 PM	The bastard sword is not, ever, a two-handed weapon. It can be used two-handed as a martial weapon. This means, in specific terms, that it can be used as a "one handed weapon in two hands" as a martial weapon. Not a two-handed weapon. This is important, because while you do get the bonuses with Str damage and Power Attack, you don't get the bonuses to Disarm or Sunder checks. Just like you never do with a longsword, even wielded in two hands. In D&D, you have to be careful about your terms. A "two-handed weapon" is not the same as a "weapon wielded in two hands". It can be, but they refer to two different things; the effort typically required/size of the weapon, and the effort actually being used. Typically, you can't use less effort than the minimum, but you can use more. For instance, you can wield a Light weapon in two hands. You just get no benefit from doing so, and possibly look silly.
Atar 05-25-05, 12:38 AM	Thanks for the detailed answers everybody. And I was asking because it will mean versatility for a fighter I'm creating in my mind :) Ta, Atar
pawsplay 05-25-05, 12:47 AM	It can be used two-handed as a martial weapon. That would make it a two-handed martial weapon. If they wanted to say it could be used as a martial weapon "in two hands," I'm sure they would have said that.
Mellowship Slinky 05-25-05, 12:50 AM	They did: A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
Ranger REG 05-25-05, 03:01 AM	Okay, something is unclear to me, and has been for a while now: Can you switch the Bastardsword between one-handed use and two-handed use if you have both Exotic and Martial weapons feats? :uh-huh: Umm... For nonmartial classes (i.e., those who do not have starting weapon proficiency in all martial weapons (plural)), you only need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) feat to use said weapon one-handed and two-handed. Technically, just that feat. Martial classes can use the bastard sword without nonproficiency attack penalty but is limited to two-handed use.
Johannixx 05-25-05, 03:55 AM	This is why the bastard sword is worth a feat: it's just so versatile! Well, not really, since you can do the same with a longsword... But still, my Fighter/Barbarian in our Midnight campaign wields an adamantine bastard sword and a large steel shield. When things get hairy, and major damage is called for, the shield gets dropped and the big bastard gets double-handed with rage and power attack.
Thorak 05-25-05, 09:33 AM	That would make it a two-handed martial weapon. If they wanted to say it could be used as a martial weapon "in two hands," I'm sure they would have said that. That's exactly the point. That doesn't make it a two-handed weapon. Any more than wielding a dagger two-handed makes the dagger a two-handed weapon. You want to look up the subsection "one-handed weapons wielded in two hands". That's what covers this case. How many hands you actually have on the weapon is not related to whether a weapon is one-handed or two-handed. That's a term based on the weapon size relative to the wielder (which admittedly often affects how many hands are needed, but there are exceptions which, in the end, don't change the weapon's class.)
babysamurai 05-25-05, 10:30 AM	And the rapier is a one-handed weapon that can't be used two handed (sorry, just for the record).
Thanatos02 05-25-05, 10:56 AM	Most of this stuff can be found simply by critically reading the rulebook, with the exception of Bastard Sword rulings. It seems that the fuzziness that stems from the difference in Martial, Exotic, One-handed, 2-handed, and the comglomeration of these traits as found in the Bastard Sword create a problem amoung some people that inevitably boils down to table rulings. As it stands, though, 1-Handed Weapons may be used in two hands. Light Weapons cannot. Light Weapons cannot be used to make Power Attacks. Light Weapons may have Weapon Finesse applied to them. Unless stated by the rules, if a weapon falls into a class that cannot execute a maneuver and falls into a second class that can at the same time, then it still cannot do so. For example - A Kukri is a One-Handed Weapon, which can usually be used in two hands. However, it is a Light Weapon, so it cannot. A longsword is a One-Handed Weapon, but it is not Light, and cannot be finessed.
Ossyrian Ush'Bel 05-25-05, 12:17 PM	I realised that if i had dropped my short sword and wielded my +1 Longsword with both hands i woulda gotten a lot more help with my attack bonus... I was always under the impression that the 1.5xStr applied only to damage rolls, does it also apply to attack rolls? If so I have some attack bonuses to rework.
Cardinal Teplin 05-25-05, 12:23 PM	That's exactly the point. That doesn't make it a two-handed weapon. Any more than wielding a dagger two-handed makes the dagger a two-handed weapon. Unfortunately, the FAQ disagrees with you, classing a bastard sword as a two-handed weapon that can be used in one hand if you have the right feat. A ruling that annoyed me, but pretty clear for all that.
Atar 05-25-05, 12:55 PM	Yeah, thats what I understood aswell from the description. Hence the topic. The way I think its meant is that when you use it as a Martial weapon its basicly a 'greatsword' that does 1d10 damage instead of 2d6. Then when you really get the hang of it (Exotic profeciency) you can use it as both a 'greatsword' and a 'longsword'... Thats what I understood from the description and thats why I asked :) Seems very st00pid to go for a greatsword if you have the feat to spare. Versatility is good.
mvincent 05-25-05, 01:16 PM	I was always under the impression that the 1.5xStr applied only to damage rolls, Correct does it also apply to attack rolls? No. I believe Ceirren might've been referring to the fact that he wouldn't have had any TWF attack roll penalties if he had used just his longsword.
Thorak 05-25-05, 01:46 PM	Unfortunately, the FAQ disagrees with you, classing a bastard sword as a two-handed weapon that can be used in one hand if you have the right feat. A ruling that annoyed me, but pretty clear for all that. The FAQ is also completely wrong. And, for what it's worth, in the last debate we had on this, I contacted Custserv, who agreed with me and passed the issue on to the devteam. The only thing that can contradict a primary source, according to the Errata, is the Errata. The FAQ is not Errata. The PHB is the primary source for weapons. That FAQ entry even says itself that it's contradicting the PHB, making it clear that it is in fact the one in error and the one that should be ignored. And, on a side note; you can wield a light weapon in two hands, guys. You just get no benefit. I cite the PHB; "Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only." For that matter, you can wield a rapier in two hands, too. The PHB only says "You can't wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage." Emphasis mine. You can do it, you just don't get the strength bonus in each case.
chocobochicken 05-26-05, 09:03 AM	For what it's worth, Thorak and I beat this horse a few weeks ago on this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=423099), and the debate ended with both of us submitting the question to WotC Customer Service with the specific request that they address the issue further in the FAQ/Errata. I'm perfectly comfortable with the FAQ answers as they stand right now. I think it's reasonable, and I believe there are ways of interpreting the existing RAW that support this. However, Thorak disagrees with it, and I guess I can understand why. Until the developers acknowledge our request and print an updated FAQ/Eratta that resolves these discrepencies, the issue is still debatable. Your best bet is to ask your DM. If your DM reads the FAQ entry and is okay with it, then you can receive that +4 bonus on sunder/disarm checks when wielding it two-handed. Regardless, you can still apply 1.5Strength to damage and 2Power Attack using it two-handed with or without the FAQ.
Thanatos02 05-26-05, 09:54 AM	Thanks for the clarification on Light Two-Handed usage. It seems obvious that you might be able to use it with two hand (or at least describe yourself as such) but the rules seem to state in no uncertain term that it can be done, which I missed. ^^ Oh, and personally, I'd lean towards Thorak's view on the usage and classification of the Bastard Sword, but, like in all games, the final decision is up to the DM. Whatever it is, it should remain consistant throughout the game under normal circumstances to all players and NPCs. ^.~
Johannixx 05-26-05, 11:48 AM	My thought on the matter is that the 'two-handed' bonus on resisting disarms is due to the fact that the weapon has sufficient room to put both hands on the weapon, rather than one hand on top of the hand actually holding the weapon. Since the bastard sword has enough handle for two hands to comfortably grip the weapon, I'd give it the bonus if used two-handed. Just my $.02
Thorak 05-26-05, 12:31 PM	My thought on the matter is that the 'two-handed' bonus on resisting disarms is due to the fact that the weapon has sufficient room to put both hands on the weapon, rather than one hand on top of the hand actually holding the weapon. Since the bastard sword has enough handle for two hands to comfortably grip the weapon, I'd give it the bonus if used two-handed. Just my $.02 I understand that point of view, and don't necessarily disagree, but currently the bonus is given to two-handed weapons, not weapons wielded in two hands. And those aren't the same. You can wield a short sword in two hands, and it's not a two-handed weapon, for instance. As for bastard swords, the main reason I dislike it is that it asserts that bastard swords are two-handed weapons, and two-handed weapons get 1.5x Str bonus to damage. Period. Regardless of how many hands. Normally, they require 2, but the bastard sword, according to the FAQ, has a special feature letting you only use one. Of course, then the FAQ claims the weapon somehow magically changes size category depending on how many hands you use. Which means not only that the sword itself actually changes size (as one-handed weapons are one size category smaller than two-handed ones), but also that it changes in hitpoints, for Sunder. And I don't see why my battered sword would fall apart just because I take one hand off it. I'm not saying the FAQ's version couldn't be made to work, but as it stands it's a bit ridiculous. In my contacts with custserv, I made it clear that my primary intent wasn't to get it made how I think is "right", but just made so that the rules are consistent, one way or the other.
Johannixx 05-26-05, 02:31 PM	I think that's way too overcomplicated, Thorak. I tend to keep things simple. The bastard sword is a one-handed weapon, and should get hardness and HP as such. I might be tempted to split the difference between one-handed and two-handed weapons for it, but I don't know if I care that much. My group uses Sunder so rarely that it has never really come up except against a greatclub some years ago. As for the damage bonus, my thoughts on that are pretty simple as well: if you have two hands on it, and it's not a light weapon, you get 1.5x your Str bonus to damage. If you don't have two hands on it, you don't. Period. That means no 1.5x bonus when using a lance in one hand while mounted, despite the fact that it's normally a 'two-handed weapon'. That means no 1.5x bonus while using 3.0 Monkey Grip to wield a greatsword in one hand. Your example of the shortsword fits in with my logic as well: there isn't enough room on a shortsword for a proper two-handed grip. On a proper bastard sword, there is. Therein lies the difference. And, let's face it, compared to almost all other two-handed martial weapons, the bastard sword is remarkably underpowered. Keeping it from granting the bonuses to resist disarms is only making it more so. You spend a feat to use a bastard sword in one hand, because it's versatile. It's like a lighter greatsword, or a heavier arming sword. Let's keep the versatility, shall we?
Thorak 05-26-05, 03:33 PM	I think that's way too overcomplicated, Thorak. I tend to keep things simple. The bastard sword is a one-handed weapon, and should get hardness and HP as such. I might be tempted to split the difference between one-handed and two-handed weapons for it, but I don't know if I care that much. My group uses Sunder so rarely that it has never really come up except against a greatclub some years ago. As for the damage bonus, my thoughts on that are pretty simple as well: if you have two hands on it, and it's not a light weapon, you get 1.5x your Str bonus to damage. If you don't have two hands on it, you don't. Period. That means no 1.5x bonus when using a lance in one hand while mounted, despite the fact that it's normally a 'two-handed weapon'. That means no 1.5x bonus while using 3.0 Monkey Grip to wield a greatsword in one hand. Your example of the shortsword fits in with my logic as well: there isn't enough room on a shortsword for a proper two-handed grip. On a proper bastard sword, there is. Therein lies the difference. And, let's face it, compared to almost all other two-handed martial weapons, the bastard sword is remarkably underpowered. Keeping it from granting the bonuses to resist disarms is only making it more so. You spend a feat to use a bastard sword in one hand, because it's versatile. It's like a lighter greatsword, or a heavier arming sword. Let's keep the versatility, shall we? It might be weak compared to two-handed weapons, but that's because it isn't a two-handed weapon. It's stronger than any martial one-handed weapon, though, which is why it's Exotic. It's a one-handed Exotic weapon. Exactly as the PHB describes. When wielded in two hands, whether as a martial weapon or not, it's a "one-handed weapon wielded in two hands". Simple, clean, and efficient. It doesn't get the two-handed weapon bonuses to Disarm for the same reason a Longsword doesn't, wielded in two hands. If you houserule to have those bonuses apply based on how many hands are used, that's fine; I happen to agree with it. But that's not what the standard rules say.
mvincent 05-26-05, 03:39 PM	As side note (in my games) I would have anyone holding a weapon in two hands be harder to disarm (yes... even if that were a light weapon). The Str multiplier doesn't seem to be an issue, and if the sunder issue ever came up in a game, I'd probably treat it as a one-handed weapon (since it's listed that way in the PHB), but it doesn't seem enough to worry 'bout.
Tony Vargas 05-26-05, 04:04 PM	As side note (in my games) I would have anyone holding a weapon in two hands be harder to disarm (yes... even if that were a light weapon).That's how it worked in 3.0, BTW.
Johannixx 05-26-05, 05:00 PM	It might be weak compared to two-handed weapons, but that's because it isn't a two-handed weapon. It's stronger than any martial one-handed weapon, though, which is why it's Exotic. It's a one-handed Exotic weapon. Exactly as the PHB describes. When wielded in two hands, whether as a martial weapon or not, it's a "one-handed weapon wielded in two hands". Simple, clean, and efficient. It doesn't get the two-handed weapon bonuses to Disarm for the same reason a Longsword doesn't, wielded in two hands. If you houserule to have those bonuses apply based on how many hands are used, that's fine; I happen to agree with it. But that's not what the standard rules say. I'm all for following the rules, as long as they make sense. This is one case where they do not.
mvincent 05-26-05, 05:22 PM	It doesn't get the two-handed weapon bonuses to Disarm for the same reason a Longsword doesn't, wielded in two hands. If you houserule to have those bonuses apply based on how many hands are used, that's fine; I happen to agree with it. But that's not what the standard rules say.It'd be a good house-rule. Note though: players can treat bastard swords as two-handed weapons without an actual "house"-rule, because the FAQ supports this (making a DM justified in using this method without deviating from the "official" rules). But a DM would also be justified in treating it as a one-handed weapon (as the RAW interpretation from the PHB). The FAQ deviates from RAW in many other instances as well... but generally I stick with the FAQ.