Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Devner 04-05-05, 12:14 PM	We are about to go into an area with a group of 6 to 8 (depending on who shows up) level 3 characters to an area with 30 to 40 various creatures. What I am looking for are attack methods or defensive measures to help us in this battle. What I have so far is locate a good defensible location, set a few spike traps, snares, etc...(basic Ewok type warfare). Have a few of us taking out perimeter guards as long as we can quitely, then once spotted running back through the trapped area, and also having our ranged attackers hitting them on the way back to the defensible location. We have a few casters but only one does ranged attacks. We have some oil flasks, a few archer types etc.. Once we get to the defensible area I guess we just have at it. Asumptions and additional inforamtion are yes, we are going to be buffed up (bard, priest, wiz, and other assorted items), we do not have time or access to go back to town so what I would like are suggestions on using the basics, becoming McGiever (speling???) in the woods, and we all bave good basic gear for the most part.
Fokker07 04-05-05, 12:32 PM	divide & conquer and make good use of bottlenecks.
Sinon 04-05-05, 12:58 PM	I am not the tactical expert that you are likely to hear from soon, but for my part, the effectiveness of traps in this situation is not going to be killing or damaging your enemy. The trap rules (from what I've heard) are pretty prohibitive, cost-wise, for level-three characters anyway. The effectiveness of traps lies not in their ability to kill; it is in their ability to control the field. You can use pits and obvious-looking falling-log contraptions to cause a thinking enemy to decide that this is a bad way to go. Make them take the approach that you want them to take. Use this to create tight formations that will make area spells and attacks more effective. (Sleep, color spray, vials of acid or alchemist's fire). Or you can force them into a bottleneck, where even a single fighter can hold off a hoard. Make them cross trenches on improvised bridges; not only will one fighter be able to hold them off, but those on the bridges will lose their dexterity bonus, making the rogue sniper lethal instead of just annoying.
Draco Strang 04-05-05, 01:38 PM	Bottle necks are big...if you can manage to get in a defensible flanking position (i.e, fighter in front of the door, lets the bad guy step in 5 feet, and then two guys hugging the opening are now flanking him) then you'll be just fine. Think about some sort of wall or trench that would facilitate the use of polearms, and of course...there's always the big rolling stone from Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Bartleby_GoC 04-05-05, 01:46 PM	When fighting vs. superior numbers keep several things in mind. 1. Flanking- Don't let them do it. It gives them notable bonuses (especially at lower levels) If they appear to be setting up a flanking maneuver, move. Try to set up a battle formation that lets yuo flank would-be flankers or which put them in poor terrain. 2. Area Affect Attacks- Try not to bunch up if the enemy is capable of this type of attack (balls of burning pitch work like small fireballs, beware). This does make anti-flanking formations harder, but losing half the party in one lucky strike is going to make a bad situation worse. 3. Reach Weapons- Make some longspears. They are simple weapons, have at least 10' reach, and can be used for AoO when the front line does arrive. Don't be afraid to drop them in favor of closer melee weapons. 4. Illusions- Doesn't always work, but a backup illusion of arriving reinforcements can turn the tide of battle. Those retrating enemies may open themselves up for AoO's especially if there's no easy path away. 5. Sumoned Animals/Allies- They will even up the odds a bit. And just a little can make a big difference. 6. Fields of fire- Two meanings. First, make sure the archers don't have blind spots they can hit. Second, soak the ground in oil, a la Braveheart. You may not catch many in the fire, but it will be an instant, unexpected barrier few mortals will be willing to cross. 7. Confusion- Make your initial raids appear to come from multiple directs, preferably by using your archers to set fires around their peremeter. Tents make good targets for this. The enemy won't know where to charge and will be forces to send out patrols. Take out the patrols one by one. Repeat. With the other suggestions given, you should manage the battle well. Bartleby
Tony Vargas 04-05-05, 01:51 PM	This is where you really want the guy with Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon. Even without the combat reflexes, though, the threat of AoOs from reach can slow down the advance of an enemy trying to get to your archers and casters. Assuming this enemies are alot weaker than you, an AoO could likely kill one outright, which will tend to discourage the others. You also might want to consider the timing of some of your attacks. Using missles early will convince the enemy to close with you quickly, which is probably good, if you have traps, caltrops or the like for them to run into. Area spells, though, might be best used a little latter, when they're starting to bunch up behind those who have engaged your front-liners, and you'll get more of them. A flashy spell might also be a good thing to pull out when you're hard-pressed, as it could possibly break thier morale. For your defensible position look for: Cover and/or concealment at the position, But, with a wide 'killing field' with no cover or concealment around it. High ground - even a small grade will give you a +1 and them a -1 as they engage you. Rough ground (traps or caltrops can help simulate this) to maximize the amount of time you have to use missles before they reach you. Bottlenecks. A narrow safe path or other aproach channels the enemy into a tighter group for area spells, and allows a smaller number of melee types to hold the line against them. You also want to consider your objective. If you want to destroy these guys, then drawing them in and saving your most powerful offense for later in the battle might be good, and you can aim missles and spells at the back ranks (the ones most likely to escape) so those occupied at the front might not notice things going against them. If all you want to do is survive, then breaking thier morale could be something to aim for, and flashy spells or Cause Fear on the front ranks could convince more of them to flee.
Sinon 04-05-05, 02:09 PM	Some very good suggestions, especially the high/low ground that was mentioned. (I'd forgotten about that.) Reach, also great. I would not try to set up flanking positions. With this many opponents, I assume that you are, individually, stronger one-on-one. You don’t need to try for an advantage like flanking, which is better suited to situations where you are individually weaker and have the numerical advantage. Your opponents probably know that you are stronger one-on-one, so they are going to do every thing they can to isolate and surround individual party members and use tactics like flanking and aid-another to compensate for their lower B.A.B.s. Their greater numbers are going to make it much easier for them to flank you than it will be for you to flank them anyway, so I wouldn’t ever let someone be exposed that way
Rulebook 04-05-05, 02:21 PM	bah. they have a bard, cleric, and a wizard. they're not gonna have many problems unless the huge amount of monsters are like cr 4s or better. have your cleric buff up a fighter or two. (unless you keep LOTS of scrolls and potions for this) keep a bunch of area-effect spells (burning hands and color spray spring to mind) for when they bunch up. sing bard sing, and give him a longspear. he can fight from behind a fighter. that -4 dosent mean much when you dont have to worry about reprisials. pray your fighters have cleave or something. try for one hit kills. that two weapon crap is for girlymen who never have to mow through 30 things at once. two handed fighting is your friend in big fights. or conversly keep a tank around and let him get flanked to high hell. flanking is very well offset by a fullplate towershield full defensive fighting guy. and on the same note, dont be afraid to go full expertise or power attack at any opportunity. if this horde of 30+ things has AC's that are hard to hit with the -3 from those feats, your DM is a horrible mean bastard. and lastly, remember, fortune favors the brave, so when you think you should run away, redouble your attack.
Devner 04-05-05, 04:38 PM	"if this horde of 30+ things has AC's that are hard to hit with the -3 from those feats, your DM is a horrible mean bastard." Ahhhhh!!! You know my DM! Thanks for all of the help. I think we are not going to have enough time to set up traps but setting up a path to guide them through is a great idea. Lead them to high ground so we get an advantage and try to bottleneck them. Not sure we have any spears or polearms....i do have a 10' pole (I am a rogue and use it to pole vault or keep things at bay) maybe i can just make an angle cut on the end of the pole hehe.
Sinon 04-05-05, 04:54 PM	If you choose ground that high enough, steep enough, that it forces them to make a climb check, no matter how easy the DC, they also lose their dex bonuses, so your rogue can sneak attack. I think that if you put up barriers that they would have to climb over, a stack of logs or something, you could also negate dexterity that way.
Vharuck 04-05-05, 05:52 PM	Ready an area near them for battle. Set down objects to split them up and make the have to file through in lines. Get large rocks or anything that ranged fighters (like the wizard) can use for cover. As was said before, simple traps are hard to avoid when the enemies are pushing each other forward. Then lure them to your battlefield and enjoy.
Leibel 04-05-05, 06:05 PM	Try a battle of cowpens move - constant retreats after a little fighting thinning their numbers then turn and counterattack - throws them off and panic (might) spread's. Net's to delay them. Rope's just above the ground to trip them. Dig a ditch(es). Cover it(them) up. Log on a rope(okay a little home alone).
SoulLord 04-05-05, 06:16 PM	One thing that could help is to appear to be much more powerful than you are hoping to scare them and drive them away. Either that or take out their leaders SoulLord
BlackFiend 04-05-05, 06:23 PM	Battlefield control is key. You have the right idea about traps...it just ain't gonna happen the way you hope or expect. Some things to think about that will really turn the tide. 1. Why are you fighting such superior numbers? What is your true objective? Is to get past them? Is it to get rid of the infestation? Do they have a prisoner you need to extricate? "Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans" - Sun Tzu 2. What is the enemy attempting to do...perhaps by balking their plans you may succeed. If I was your DM, you are going to be over your head a bit...you will need to use guile to win. Consider that trying to break down their doors is not the way to go...it may mean trying to subvert a few of his men and then make your move with their help. If they are chaotic, you can be sure someone there is wanting to take over. Use this. One of the most boldest tactics I've ever used was to enter the middle of a hostile area and demand audience with the guy in charge. Depending on your objective, you may be able to get what you want easier than you may think. 3. If the enemy has any skill, or your DM any wits, he will seek to divide your small force of 8, by any means necessary. Its critical to your down fall. Though its helpful to have at least one man who can go ghost when things go bad, you don't want your whole team split up and beatdown. You may put up an obstinate fight, but an inferior force will eventually lose. If this force of 30 gets backup...you will take heavy casualties. if the force of 30 equals you with wizards, clerics, etc...again...its a pathetic venture. Pending on the answers to the things above...your options are before you. IMO, if nothing above grants you an open shot to victory, and you must confront the enemy...the best you can do is enter in headlong and fight your way through to your objective. Show lots of resolve. You know casualties will come...if you are resolved about this, then let it rain. In such a case, you must strike hard when the enemy is unprepared. Wait patiently for the opportunity. Study the opponent as best as you can before discovery. Then strike...seeking to balk the enemies plans, while also striking them down as hard as you can. Battlefield control is key as well. Take clever use of lighting to aid you. Fog Cloud is a useful spell. It slows down opponents, and kills their ranged attacks. Pray that your DM is not a hardnose psycopath like most of us DMs on this board. Good luck! I love suicide missions. :)
Bartleby_GoC 04-05-05, 11:48 PM	Heh, if your DM does mass battles the way I do, you're in for a rough time. Admittedly, I only do this when the good guys are outnumbered 100 to 1, but it's still brings out a very serious sense of suspense. I just keep bringing on more bad guys until the party is out of resources. Sometimes this means one or more PCs are down and dying (soldiers go after those upright and finish off the dying later). Once the party is suitably exhausted, the attackers break and retreat (if they were supposed to lose) or take prisoners (if they were supposed to win). In most movies, the enemy keeps coming until it seems the good guys can take no more. This has worked very well in the past, though it doesn't sound like you're facing that sort of numbers. Yeah, it's metagaming, but it also gives a sense of real accomplishement for mid to high level characters when fighting low level hoards. Bart