Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lycanthromancer 05-15-05, 05:55 PM	NARRATOR: See the group of players and their DM sitting around the table? Things seem to going in their usual manner: The munchies are set out, the books and dice are scattered chaotically all over (although the folks involved seem to know exactly where everything is), and the game is in full swing. Everybody seems to be enjoying themselves, but it's been mostly jokes and munching up to this point. Things are, however, about to take a turn for the worse: DM: You're travelling through the forest. Make a Spot and Listen check. (Everyone makes it, luckily). You see...A monster! PLAYERS: *Gasp!* DM: The monster gives a roar, and it attacks! Roll initiative! ROUND 1... ROGUE: Okay, I go first. I run up and hit it with my shortsword! MONSTER: Grrrrrrllll... *Swipe with claw and bite* FIGHTER: I go second! I, too, run up and hit it with my longsword! CLERIC: I go third! I run up and hit it...with my mace! WIZARD: I go fourth! I stay back and hit it...with my Magic Missiles! Round 2... ROGUE: ...I attack. MONSTER: Grrrrrrlll... *Swipe with claw and bite* FIGHTER: ...I attack. CLERIC: ...I attack. WIZARD: ...I attack...With my Magic Missiles! Rounds 3, 4, 5...Repeat. What do you do when you're stuck with a group and/or DM that turns combat into a "I hit, you hit, I hit, you hit" affair? What, in your opinion, is the best way to deal with the problem? The last two groups that I played with ended up being nothing but an endless cycle of boring battles that really weren't much fun, and I didn't like it at all. I'd love it if battles were a little more tactics-oriented, and far more interesting, but unfortunately, the DMs (and players) I was playing with didn't seem to see any problem, so long as large numbers of HPs were drained from our foes. I have a few ideas, primarily with making scenery a big part of battles, but I'd like to hear some of your comments about it, and what you've done to minimize these problems. I look forward to your posts, and thanks for your replies.
RaspK FOG 05-15-05, 06:56 PM	Actually, you need 3 things: flavour text, flavour text, and "Would you like some nacho cheese sauce with that flavour text, sir?" To put it nicely, make them (and demand from yourself) that battles are spiced up: the setting might be moody and dark, or you might even make things tough for them, and, most importantly, make them feel they need roll up their roleplaying sleeves and dust them off! This is a common issue in horror and gothic games, and you should always make them feel as if they were there.
Lycanthromancer 05-15-05, 07:11 PM	Granted, evocative descriptions (succubi, anyone?) can make any part of a game more interesting, but can flavor text be the end-all be-all of making battles more thrilling? What about making encounters a bit more than simply comparing monster stats with character stats, and rolling dice for a bit of randomness?
mercurial67 05-15-05, 07:24 PM	There are all sorts of things you can do to "enliven" the battles. Personally, most of the battles my group runs into happen to be in the woods. There are not a lot of battles in the middle of big open flat fields. Trees serve as cover & obstacles, bushes slow movement and provide concealment. It takes extra movement to rush up the hill or a minor climb check to make it over an embankment (the fighter in full plate HATES thoses - there was a steep incline down a tunnel with a DC 5 balance or climb check which he failed & the group still jokes about). Read up on (or point out to your DM) the section about wilderness and environments. It has specifics about obstacles & concealment provided by undergrowth. Try using a few tacts yourself to show how effective they can be. Make a tripper & show them how much a prone foe can suffer. Spring attack with a reach weapon can be brutal. Truth be told, the combat side of the game really is about dealing hp damage while avoiding it yourself. Some people like just dealing it while others like to finesse it a bit (use tactics). The same can also be said for playing style. Some people are completely happy going from encounter to encounter without any reason while others enjoy the combat but enjoy the getting from encounter to encounter more. You just have to find a group which matches your preferences.
Psifon 05-15-05, 07:43 PM	Gods there is SO MUCH more that you can do in a battle than this! I am sorry that this has been your experience. Most of it is the DM's responsibility, but the players can also contribute significantly. First off, the battlefield is a great way to make an encounter more interesting. Terrain can be mundane (rubble, water, patches of ice, cliffs etc) or exotic (gysers, machinery, etc.) These things can have a strong impact on the outcome of combat. For instance I once ran a fight in a foundry. Some Ice Devils fired off a cone of cold at a PC who happened to be standing next to a huge crucible full of molten iron. The abrupt tempurature change ruptured the crucible, and the PC was doused with magma. Now that is some flavor text for ya! The party can also contribute to the excitement of combat. Terrain controll spells have a huge impact on battles. Even obscuring mist can make a big difference in a combat. I have had a wizard cast obscuring mist then cast disguise self to look like one of the bad guys, just so I could "retreat" up to the enemy leader and plunge a dagger into him. Walls, illusions etc. can make a huge difference. Similarly, a triptastic fighter can be used to create a bottleneck on the battlefield that lets the party pick off bad guys piecemeal. Note that the DM can also use all of these tactics as well. Finally, monster special abilities are a very good way to spice up a combat. Being paralized, swallowed whole or poisoned can ruin anyone's day. Breath weapons provide areas of effect, terrain provides cover from the breath weapon, etc. etc. Just look at the huge range of special powers and effect that ANY character can generate in the game, and it is pretty easy to see that anyone who doesnt' have exciting and colorful combats is simply not trying.
Shaken, not Stunned 05-15-05, 07:56 PM	I think the first part of the problem becomes evident with "You see a monster." the correct way to do this is "You see a tall, shadowy figure. It appears roughly humanoid, but much bigger. It's red eyes glint with a feral anger and slant inwards. You see it heft a large club up and begin running towrads you. Roll initiative." The second problem is that the players are "walking through the woods." They shouldn't be attacked until they are halfway across a decaying rope bridge, or in a similarly interesting environment. I'm on this huge campaign right now to bring back the environmet for fights. No combat should take place on a flat, plain, surface with no objects around and with everyone well armed and in top shape. That's just boring. The third problem is the rogue is an idiot. The rogue didn't even flank. The most basic and most easily incorperated tactical manuever was not used. The wizard needs to learn to buff. So does the cleric. As for what you can do, in list form with explanation: -Description: Be vivid. Try to inspire an emotion or convey a 'mood.' Whether you go for soemthing like shadowy menace, as in my description or something else is up to you. -Environment: the terrain should serve as a way to make every combat unique. Try including traps and improvizable weapons. -Conditions: Hinder the players from time to time. If your humanoid mosnters use intersting tactics, the PCs will start to as well. Your orcs should bull rush, sunder, and tripe. Grapple, too.
Cadfan 05-15-05, 09:38 PM	It depends which person you are in the group. If you're the DM, describe the monster more effectively. If you're the player, describe your own actions more effectively. It helps a bit if your character can actually do neat combat tricks, but frankly, you can describe whatever you want as long as it doesn't overlap with something that has gameplay affect. For example, if you're the rogue- "I charge the owlbear at top speed, and just as I get within its reach, I stop on a dime, ducking its reaching claws, and *** the tip of my shortsword into its armpit. 9 damage!" That's way, way better than "I charge and attack, and get, uh, 9 damage." The only thing to be careful about is that you shouldn't describe combat tricks that you aren't actually doing. Such as, don't describe your character making a feint attack if you're really not. That's unfair to the guy who really does make a feint attack, because now he doesn't get to sound all cool describing his special maneuver.
Lycanthromancer 05-16-05, 01:09 PM	Thanks for the replies, folks. Just so you know, I've been "the new guy" in the last two groups I was playing with (i.e., not the DM). They were both well-established groups, and really didn't appreciate "the new guy" coming in with new ideas, but describing my actions in such a way might've enlivened things by getting the other players to be a bit more vivid. Maybe I'll find some other people to play with, and perhaps try being the DM for some newbies (although those are nearly impossible to find around here...). I have all sorts of nifty ideas to make the campaign more fun than my experiences have been the last couple of years, such as having a campaign with lots of scenery to use to the advantage of both PCs and their foes (barrels to hide behind or to roll into foes, ship-rigging to perform stunts with, chandeliers to swing around on and to drop on foes, and cannons and gunpowder - in small quantities, of course - to use as the combatants see fit). That should liven things up a bit (along with plenty of descriptive, fluffy, flavor text). Any other suggestions or comments?
Someone 05-16-05, 02:21 PM	I'd suggest using minis and terrain pieces. Physical representation goes a long way "describing" how the combat unfolds. It helps in figuring out just how many things the wizard blasted with a fireball (without hitting friends of course), or if the rogue really can move to a flanking position this round. I'd be careful about letting the players describe what their characters do, to me, describing what happens when the players do something is the DM's job. The reason being is that some players might think they should get a bonus for describing something in excessive detail. The "I feignt without actually using the feignt maneuver" Cadfan mentioned is a good example.
Osiris Memnoch 05-16-05, 02:47 PM	Some players won't be creative enough to come up with clever ways to say what their characters are doing. If you're the DM, all I have for you is three words. Exotic Battle Fields. Someone earlier mentioned a moldy old rope bridge. That's a good one. Extreme close quarters is another fun one for any archers in the group, or vice versa for the melee fighters. Villains with clever plans are fun too. A simple one is to use a wizard with the alarm spell cast on the room before his chamber. While the party searches for traps or fights something small or whatever, the wizard sets up all his buffs, turns invisible, and readies a scroll of time stop. Things like that will force the party to use tactics more because if they don't they'll lose a lot more or at least have a tougher time winning. Of course you're not trying to kill the players, but tricks like that can definately keep the party guessing.
Rulebook 05-16-05, 03:06 PM	we used to have that problem, the whole i hit, you hit, it hits, blah thing going on. then we started getting technical. admittedly, our group lacks a bit on the flavor text department during combats, but we make up for it with an almost Tom Clancy attention to the flow of battle. We have a few dozen house rules (which i will not get into here) that make it more combat like. we make full use of household items and things for terrain (our crowning acheivement was when we found a clothlike mat thing that sorta held onto the miniatures we put on it, even at strange angles, so we made HILLS!) its amazing how well things like old soda cans and cigarette packs turn into walls and columns. playing cards work really really well for walls too. (old playing cards + dollar store scotch tape = infinite ways to build walls) hell, i remember one day a few years back, where we raised the battlefield up off the floor about 4 inches (with books and stuff) and put a pan full of water in the middle if it all. we had an honest to goodness pool of water for the baddie to come out of! we toyed with the idea of printing up a giant grid and laminating it at Kinkos to dry-erase away, but we figured it'd just be more fun (and we've stopped using grids anyway. 360 degree movement baby! sewing tape measures are your friends now: soft, flexible, and they measure out to a few feet) D&D combat should never just be "you see an ogre" "i move up and hit it" "it hits you back" "i hit it again" "it dies" "i move to the next ogre" seriously, no excuse for that unless your group does more RP than combat. (we just love our combats)
tiercel 05-16-05, 06:25 PM	Welllll... there are many ways to fight more tactically, even in boring terrain. Fighters can trip and disarm. They can change their offensive and defensive output with feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise. Wizards can cause all sorts of nasty status ailments that have nothing to do with direct hp damage. Grease, glitterdust, blindness/deafness, slow, stinking cloud are only a few, not to mention "battlefield reshaping" spells that create barriers to line of sight (e.g. fog spells) and/or physical barriers (wall spells, web, etc). Fighters can work with wizards' barriers and nasty effects with things like bull rush. ("Ohh, was that a wall of fire that sprang up right behind you?") Clerics can be attacking, keeping an eye on their companions and healing, buffing up frontliners, or launching offensive and/or status ailment spells themselves. Rogues can be darting in and out for sneak attacks (most rogues don't plant and do full attacks on sneak attacks unless they think they can finish off the beastie, given their generally lower hp), nicking important pieces of equipment off of enemies, and scouting ahead to give the advance warning to the rest of the party. Characters, whether PCs or NPCs, should be using their capabilities to the fullest. If all you ever do is rush up and swing to do damage, you might as well be playing the Warrior class.
Keenath 05-16-05, 11:46 PM	As a player, if you want to spice up your combat, flip over in your PHB to the Combat chapter, and start reading. That's right -- use combat techniques! Trip! Disarm! Sunder! (love that sunder..!) Grapple! And, my personal favorite... IMPROVISED WEAPONS! Who doesn't love it when your barbarian rages, grabs a chair, and bashes in some guy's head with it? One time I completely took out an enemy fighter with a wheelbarrow, which promptly shattered in a cloud of splinters! (That's flavor text right there, that is!) So you take a -4 to hit. Big deal -- if you're a fighter or barbarian, you can suck up a -4 penalty without even noticing. That's why power attack is a good idea. In my case, my barbarian happens to favor a two-handed dagger (or kukri) style, for IC reasons. Power attack is useless, though she has massive strength. So when I want to have a two-handed weapon and my quarterstaff isn't handy, I pick up the nearest heavy thing and start whacking people! By the way, check the last pages of Complete Warrior for some great rules on how to deal with improvised weapons!
Keenath 05-17-05, 12:03 AM	My last post leads into something else that may be of value to you. In my experience, one of the things that can make combat fun again is to build sub-optimal characters! To me, D&D gets boring when every fighter has CHA as a dump stat, weilds a greatsword or a longsword and large shield, and takes the same six feats. Or every cleric clumps around in heavy plate with a tower shield and a mace. Or every rogue is either two-dagger style or snipe-from-the-shadows. Go for some interesting characters even if they're not the best mechanical option. I mentioned a barbarian with a penchant for daggers -- She grew up in a slum, where big weapons are frowned on by the guard (when the bother to come by) and other gangs, and anyway, they're too clumsy to use in the tight spaces of urban combat. So she has the best set of light weapons she can get (Kukris, which are martial and have a nasty crit range) and two-weapon fighting. You know what? She could deal a lot more damage with a greatsword and power attack. But that's what EVERY barbarian has, that or a big axe. Did I mention that she's terrified of incorporeal undead? Take a level of something unusual, like a rogue with one level of fighter who uses an axe for sneak attacks. Or use a weapon that's often ignored, like a Bard who specializes in the Whip (love those trip attacks!). Or use a non-standard race/class combo, like an elf fighter or a gnomish barbarian. Take some cross-class skills! It's great when the big, dumb barbarian suddenly displays an intimate knowledge of art pieces and can tell you, on sight, where this bit comes from and how much it's worth to within two silver. Combine those ideas, too -- how about an elf fighter who has one level of wizard, just for a few defensive spells, which he sometimes flubs from the armor check? How about a halfling paladin who uses a shortsword? Or a half-orc monk who has moral problems with killing humanoids, and always hits them for subdual damage? Half of the fun of D&D is making a character that's unique and fun, and too many people stick to numerical advantage rather than what's interesting. *PS -- Of course, sometimes it's fun to play a character that's so standard, it's almost painful. You just have to work harder on story to make it unique. Ask me sometime about B'ob, the Paladin of the Order of the Chicken, and her (!) pet chicken, which is actually a fruit bat.
Jason Snyder 05-17-05, 02:35 PM	The above suggestions are certainly good ones. One other tactic is to make the enemies very, very lethal in a straight-up melee fight but be vulnerable to some round-about tactic. If the players know that the target is dangerous and can't be beaten by application of large numbers of swords, they will start looking around for some other way. Some possibilities: The goblin camp has too many people to be meleed at once. Perhaps they could be drawn out and ambushed a few at a time? Perhaps the camp is below a dam and if the goblins were drawn off, the wizard could destroy the dam, thereby destroying the camp. Players are almost always going to take the simplest route to victory. If it's easiest to run up to a target and beat on it, then they are going to do that every time. Make it so that that tactic doesn't work and they will do something more... unconventional.
Jerivar 05-18-05, 04:48 AM	Man, I love unconventional tactics.
spyderfreek 05-18-05, 06:01 AM	Here's an example for ya.... PARTY: Hu-Paladin, Hu-Fighter, Elven-Mage/Cleric, Elven-Monk, Hu-Cleric/Fighter ENEMY: Titan, formerly a god, who has gone insane and only wants out of prison GOAL: Get the amulet around the titan's neck After finishing off the titan's insane lillend lackies, the monk(me) scouts ahead, and spots the titan. Monk stalls for a brief second in awe of the immense human infront of him, then darts back to the party to explain what he saw. Party sighs deeply in unison, then prepares for battle... Paladin and Fighter stand side-by-side to attempt to block corridor (BUFF SPELLS ARE UP FROM PREVIOUS BATTLE), CLeric take s position behind both to prepare for heals and readies a Greater Dispel for when Titan rounds corner. Mage/Cleric flies carpet of flying as high as possible and hands two staves to the unseen servent at her side while preparing assay resistance for when the Titan appears. Monk uses reing of chameleon power and tumble to get into a position to flank the titan. Titan appears and gets blasted from the GDM, cleric rolls well and takes down all prepared spells. Titan throws chain lightning and pummels the monk with is maul after spotting him in the dark corridor. Disregarding the monk for a chance at the exit, the titan charges the fighters, attempting to crush the paladin with mighty smashes from his maul the Titan gets dismayed by the blinking warrior. The fighter and Paladin proceed to start hacking, slashing and dodging the Titan. Working as a well oiled machine the two companions lay a powerful wall of stell up infront of the massive Titan. Counteracting the damage done by the chain lightning and maul smashes, the cleric heals the paladin with power from his god. Meanwhile the monk activates his boots of flying and approaches the Titan in an attempt to steal the necklace from the very neck of the Titan. Sensing his approach the Titan deftly denies the monks grabbing hands and blasts him with a powerful crush of his maul. Suddenly the Titan is wracked in pain as what feels like a wall of pure energy assails him from the Mage. Attempting to crush the puny foes before him, the Titan changes tactics and tries pummeling the fighter in lieu of the blinking Paladin. Still standing after several powerful blows, both the fighter and the paladin return the favor of pain to the now weakening Titan. Again, the Cleric calls on the might of his lord to bing healing down upon his friends, undoing the damage done by the fallen one. Still acting the part of a nuisance to the titan, the monk starts rapidly grapping at the amulet, taking another powerful blow, but unrelentingly throwing his hands at the titan. Finally after four tries he manages to pull it off, drawing the undivided attention of a creature with one sole purpose, protect that amulet. Exhausted from his hits and recent movments, the monk has nowhere to run. As the Titan turns to destroy that which has stolen his most prescious possession, the fighter and Paladin end his pitiful existence. collapsing in a heap to his knees, even in death it will not fall and bow to those that are its betters. or I could have said A group of adventures took down a titan to get the amulet. which is more interesting.
jyshiow 05-18-05, 12:15 PM	Battles for my grp begins with the DM going to some detail describing the setting, enemies etc Unfortunately what happens next is usually: Player 1(Incantater): Umm I cast off a quickened firebrand, while using my two wands to discharge two empowered fireballs and my familiar casts a fireball..... Player 2(Cleric of Mystra): I use divine metamagic to get off a quickened bladebarrier and i cast another bladebarrier... So usually most fights are over so quickly due to the sheer number of offensive AOE spells thrown (the remaining 2 members of our party are also fighter-wizards of some sort or other)...
Keenath 05-19-05, 11:43 AM	Any PRC or item that allows a PC to cast twice in the same turn is going to be a problem. Even quicken is an issue, but at least it's a big level boost to use, and only prepared spells can use it effectively. Anyone who's burning off two wands and a spell in the same turn just needs to be DM-smacked. And while we're at it, smack the DM that allowed that PRC. Spellcasters are powerful enough that multiplying their per-turn output is just stupidity. Also, regarding Divine Metamagic, I suggest a nerf -- a spell enhanced by Divine Meta may have an effective spell level no higher than the highest spell level you can cast. That keeps people from casting any spell they couldn't theoretically prepare -- and take my word for it, you do NOT want to see a Divine Persistent Righteous Might. It's just... augh. Same thing with the Sudden Metamagic feats. Giving a preparation-caster a spontaneous metamagic is powerful enough without throwing in the ability to metamagic up a 16th level spell!