Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Banatine 10-19-07, 09:18 AM	The book says that they increase a warforged slam damage to 1d8 piercing and bludgeoning. but i was wondering: Are you counted as armed while wearing a battlefist? Does the increase to unarmed damage apply to non-monks? Can you use more than one battlefist? if so, do you gain any benefit from doing so? Is a battlefist treated as a light or one-handed weapon? Does the 'spiked gauntlet' reference mean you can treat the battlefist as a large spiked gauntlet? Can you take Weapon Focus (Battlefist) or Weapon Specialisation (Battlefist)? Thanks in advance.
CrazyGuy 10-19-07, 12:51 PM	The book says that they increase a warforged slam damage to 1d8 piercing and bludgeoning. but i was wondering: The battlefist augments the Warforged's natural slam attack, so basically, treat it as a slam that does more damage. So Are you counted as armed while wearing a battlefist? As a natural weapon, you indeed count as armed. Does the increase to unarmed damage apply to non-monks? The 1d8 is for non-Monks. Monk Warforged with battlefists deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they really are. Can you use more than one battlefist? if so, do you gain any benefit from doing so? This is sort of a DM's call thing. I would say, since Warforged only get a single Slam, I would say you could, but you could only use one per round. Now, if you got that feat from Races of Eberron that gives you a second slam, I would say go for it. Is a battlefist treated as a light or one-handed weapon? Again, natural weapon, so light (but it power attacsk as if one-handed). Does the 'spiked gauntlet' reference mean you can treat the battlefist as a large spiked gauntlet? You treat it as your slam attack. Can you take Weapon Focus (Battlefist) or Weapon Specialisation (Battlefist)? Again, the battlefist is your slam attack, so take those feats for (Slam). Thanks in advance. No problem.
j3st3r 10-19-07, 03:52 PM	The 1d8 is for non-Monks. Monk Warforged with battlefists deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they really are. Warforged Monks also benefit from the 1d8 slam damage. They can make flurry of blows + slam attack with a -5 penalty on the attack roll. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.
Banatine 10-20-07, 07:01 AM	Thanks for the answers, but now i'm a little confused on another point. Lets say i'm a fighter 20 who specialised in two-weapon fighting and unarmed attack feats. Wearing two battlefists, how would my attacks work out? Would i get my two slam attacks (doing 1d8 + whatever) at +20/+15, then 'unarmed attacks' at +20/+15/+10/+5? (i suppose this is more a question of how do natural attacks and unarmed attacks interact.) What damage will my 'unarmed attacks' do? If i take Improved Natural Attack, will my battlefists deal 2d6 damage? If i have Superior Unarmed Strike, will my 'unarmed attacks' do 2d6 as well? Again, thanks in advance!
deathbane 10-20-07, 08:43 AM	Thanks for the answers, but now i'm a little confused on another point. Lets say i'm a fighter 20 who specialised in two-weapon fighting and unarmed attack feats. Wearing two battlefists, how would my attacks work out? Would i get my two slam attacks (doing 1d8 + whatever) at +20/+15, then 'unarmed attacks' at +20/+15/+10/+5? (i suppose this is more a question of how do natural attacks and unarmed attacks interact.) What damage will my 'unarmed attacks' do? If i take Improved Natural Attack, will my battlefists deal 2d6 damage? If i have Superior Unarmed Strike, will my 'unarmed attacks' do 2d6 as well? Again, thanks in advance! 1. The slam is a natural attack that uses your arm, so long as you are not holding a weapon you get both slams at a -5, meaning both slam attacks get a mod of +15 assuming you don't use flurry of blows. 2. That has been a very debated point. My ruling has been that since both are virtual size increases kind of like powerful build and monkey grip they don't stack, but as a house rule I allow it(most of the time, still on the fence) because the monk is not as effective as it should be in battle. If you are not the DM ask him. If you are the DM then if you think monks are powerful enough don't stack them, but if you think they need love then allow it. The damage you do is dependent on your monk level 3. Superior unarmed strike does you no good once you get to the highest progress of unarmed damage. I dont know your monk's level so I can't answer the damage question. If you are a level five monk with superior unarmed strike your damage will go from 1d8 to 1d10 because that is the next progression. If you also have the battlefist or INA(the feat) the damage will be 2d8 per strike.
Banatine 10-20-07, 09:24 AM	1. The slam is a natural attack that uses your arm, so long as you are not holding a weapon you get both slams at a -5, meaning both slam attacks get a mod of +15 assuming you don't use flurry of blows. Does that mean i would only get my slam attacks if i made a full attacks, or do i get 'unarmed attacks' as well as the slam attacks? 2. That has been a very debated point. My ruling has been that since both are virtual size increases kind of like powerful build and monkey grip they don't stack, but as a house rule I allow it(most of the time, still on the fence) because the monk is not as effective as it should be in battle. If you are not the DM ask him. If you are the DM then if you think monks are powerful enough don't stack them, but if you think they need love then allow it. The damage you do is dependent on your monk level. I'm not entirely sure what you mean there. I'm not using monk levels at all. I just wanted to fight with two battlefists. Are you saying that wearing two battlefists only make my unarmed damage one category larger? if so, i understand that point. i mean what damage would they do, because a large unarmed attack deals 1d4, but the battlefist itself deals 1d8 damage. 3. Superior unarmed strike does you no good once you get to the highest progress of unarmed damage. I dont know your monk's level so I can't answer the damage question. If you are a level five monk with superior unarmed strike your damage will go from 1d8 to 1d10 because that is the next progression. If you also have the battlefist or INA(the feat) the damage will be 2d8 per strike. I know that. but again, i'm not using a monk for the example. I was wondering if my unarmed attacks would do 2d6, since that is the highest that SUS goes to, or does it become 3d6 since they are treated as one size category larger? Here are my ideas: I am a warforged fighter 20. My equipment is 2 battlefists. I possess greater two-weapon fighting, superior unarmed strike, improved natural attack (slam), and second slam (among other things.) I make a full attack against an opponent. Is this how my attack routine goes?: +20/+15/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 The first attack there is the first slam attack, which deals 2d6 damage if it hits (thanks to improved natural attack, combined with the battlefist). the second one is the second slam (also dealing 2d6 damage). All the others are all unarmed attacks. These deal 3d6 damage (they would deal 2d6 because of superior unarmed strike, but since the battlefist increases your unarmed damage by one category, the damage increases to 3d6.) Now, have i worked this out correctly? I am certain that i have not, because i have no idea how combining natural attacks and unarmed attacks in the same full attack action works. I know that you only get the slam attacks once, but do they require one of your standart 'attack slots', or do they happen outside the normal full attack calculation?
RavenDrake 10-20-07, 10:19 AM	Not quite... you can ONLY combine natural weapons with manufactured weapon attacks(which the unarmed strikes will count as) as secondary natural attacks. Thus your attack routine will be +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 for your unarmed attacks(with up to Greater Two-weapon Fighting), then you may make Two slam attacks at +13/+13 Your Two-weapon fighting penalties apply to ALL attacks made in that round, including your natural weapon attacks. Your Slam has to be a secondary natural attack to be added to a "manufactured" weapon attack routine(which means it applies 1/2 your strength bonus to damage, and suffers a -5 penalty). Your Second Slam, because of the wording of the feat, can also be added since this is a full attack action that uses your slam. You also take a -5 penalty for it. It says this second slam "deals normal slam attack damage". Be prepared for people to say that this means the second slam can apply full strength bonus. I don't agree with that, however, as your "normal slam attack damage", when used as a secondary weapon, deals 1/2 strength bonus. Also note that most DM's(myself included) rule that a limb may only be used for one activity per round(save where the rules explicitly give you license), so you may or may not be able to take all of those attacks... As for the damage, everything I find on effective size increases in the FAQ say that they stack with each other (See the FAQ's take on the Spiked Shield of Bashing, which they agree stacks for a three stage effective increase to size). So, I would say that, yes, Improved Natural Attack and the Battlefists increases would stack.
Banatine 10-20-07, 10:56 AM	Right, so i get 7 attacks with my unarmed attacks which deal 3d6 damage each, and 2 slam attacks that deal 2d6 damage each? Thats pretty cool! Ok, my last question: What type of damage will my unarmed attacks do? I know that the battlefists do piercing and bludgeoning, but will unarmed strikes as well? Or would i need versatile unarmed strike?
CrazyGuy 10-20-07, 11:37 AM	Absent the "Versatile Unarmed Strike" feat, your unarmed strikes will do bludgeoning damage.
Banatine 10-20-07, 11:48 AM	Absent the "Versatile Unarmed Strike" feat, your unarmed strikes will do bludgeoning damage. even though i am wearing battlefists?
RavenDrake 10-20-07, 12:46 PM	Regardless of your equipment, "unarmed strikes" are bludgeoning barring a specific feat, class ability, or item that specifies otherwise. The battlefist specifies that it changes the damage of your slam, but does not indicate that it does the same for your uarmed strike.
Banatine 10-20-07, 01:05 PM	Regardless of your equipment, "unarmed strikes" are bludgeoning barring a specific feat, class ability, or item that specifies otherwise. The battlefist specifies that it changes the damage of your slam, but does not indicate that it does the same for your uarmed strike. I suppose, but i think that i'll ask my DM if that can be changed. I am still attacking with the battlefists, after all, even if it isn't with a slam.
deathbane 10-21-07, 06:10 AM	Not quite... you can ONLY combine natural weapons with manufactured weapon attacks(which the unarmed strikes will count as) as secondary natural attacks. Thus your attack routine will be +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 for your unarmed attacks(with up to Greater Two-weapon Fighting), then you may make Two slam attacks at +13/+13 Your Two-weapon fighting penalties apply to ALL attacks made in that round, including your natural weapon attacks. Your Slam has to be a secondary natural attack to be added to a "manufactured" weapon attack routine(which means it applies 1/2 your strength bonus to damage, and suffers a -5 penalty). Your Second Slam, because of the wording of the feat, can also be added since this is a full attack action that uses your slam. You also take a -5 penalty for it. It says this second slam "deals normal slam attack damage". Be prepared for people to say that this means the second slam can apply full strength bonus. I don't agree with that, however, as your "normal slam attack damage", when used as a secondary weapon, deals 1/2 strength bonus. Also note that most DM's(myself included) rule that a limb may only be used for one activity per round(save where the rules explicitly give you license), so you may or may not be able to take all of those attacks... As for the damage, everything I find on effective size increases in the FAQ say that they stack with each other (See the FAQ's take on the Spiked Shield of Bashing, which they agree stacks for a three stage effective increase to size). So, I would say that, yes, Improved Natural Attack and the Battlefists increases would stack. The next size up from 1d4 is 1d6. That article has nothing to do with size.
blade265 10-23-07, 03:11 AM	Battlefist Eberron Campaign Setting p268 Battlefist (attached component): This +1 weapon resembles a massively oversized spiked gauntlet, one designed for a medium Warforged looks like a gauntlet designed for an ogre. The Battlefist is medium sized weapon for a medium sized Warforged. Also it is not a Monk special weapon so can't be used in furry of blows. Banatine 1) it is a weapon so yes you are armed while wearing a battle fist. 2) A Battlefist increases unarmed damage by one die size, so a non monk would do 1d4 instead of 1d3. 3) not sure on this but I think only one is worn. 4) The Battlefist is medium sized weapon for a medium sized Warforged. (Battlefist Eberron Campaign Setting p268 Battlefist (attached component): This +1 weapon resembles a massively oversized spiked gauntlet, one designed for a medium Warforged looks like a gauntlet designed for an ogre. 5) see 4 CrazyGuy: A Battlefist is a manufactured weapon not a natural weapon. It increases the slam by enhancement abilities. it increases the warforged slam to 1d8, for unarmed damage it increases it by one die size non-monks would be 1d4 instead of 1d3. j3st3r: Battlefist is a medium sized weapon and is not a monk special weapon so can't be used for flurry of blows. FoB is a full round action and the slam can't be used with FoB's. deathbane: Two slam's would be a full round action and FoB's is a full round action so the two would not stack. Banatine: your full attack would be two slams at +20/+15 doing 1d8 + bonuses each or 4 unarmed strikes +20/+15/+10/+5 each attack doing 1d4 damage + bonuses.
deathbane 10-23-07, 03:35 AM	Battlefist Eberron Campaign Setting p268 Battlefist (attached component): This +1 weapon resembles a massively oversized spiked gauntlet, one designed for a medium Warforged looks like a gauntlet designed for an ogre. The Battlefist is medium sized weapon for a medium sized Warforged. Also it is not a Monk special weapon so can't be used in furry of blows. Banatine 1) it is a weapon so yes you are armed while wearing a battle fist. 2) A Battlefist increases unarmed damage by one die size, so a non monk would do 1d4 instead of 1d3. 3) not sure on this but I think only one is worn. 4) The Battlefist is medium sized weapon for a medium sized Warforged. (Battlefist Eberron Campaign Setting p268 Battlefist (attached component): This +1 weapon resembles a massively oversized spiked gauntlet, one designed for a medium Warforged looks like a gauntlet designed for an ogre. 5) see 4 CrazyGuy: A Battlefist is a manufactured weapon not a natural weapon. It increases the slam by enhancement abilities. it increases the warforged slam to 1d8, for unarmed damage it increases it by one die size non-monks would be 1d4 instead of 1d3. j3st3r: Battlefist is a medium sized weapon and is not a monk special weapon so can't be used for flurry of blows. FoB is a full round action and the slam can't be used with FoB's. deathbane: Two slam's would be a full round action and FoB's is a full round action so the two would not stack. Banatine: your full attack would be two slams at +20/+15 doing 1d8 + bonuses each or 4 unarmed strikes +20/+15/+10/+5 each attack doing 1d4 damage + bonuses. I know he cant use a slam with FoB's. I was assuming he was going to use the unarmed attack without FoB, just to get his 2 slams in.
blade265 10-23-07, 08:09 AM	Sorry deathbane I may be reading this wrong :D "Thus your attack routine will be +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 for your unarmed attacks(with up to Greater Two-weapon Fighting), then you may make Two slam attacks at +13/+13". so does that mean that you make your 7 unarmed strikes and then 2 slam attacks. With a fighter with a +20 BAB, TWF, ITWF and GTWF, the attacks would be +18/+13/+8/+3 primary and +18/+13/+8 offhand but using a battlefist it would be +16/+11/+6/+1 primary and +16/+11/+6 offhand as a battlefist is not a light weapon. Damage would be 1d3 w/out a battlefist and 1d4 with.
deathbane 10-23-07, 09:30 AM	Sorry deathbane I may be reading this wrong :D "Thus your attack routine will be +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 for your unarmed attacks(with up to Greater Two-weapon Fighting), then you may make Two slam attacks at +13/+13". so does that mean that you make your 7 unarmed strikes and then 2 slam attacks. With a fighter with a +20 BAB, TWF, ITWF and GTWF, the attacks would be +18/+13/+8/+3 primary and +18/+13/+8 offhand but using a battlefist it would be +16/+11/+6/+1 primary and +16/+11/+6 offhand as a battlefist is not a light weapon. Damage would be 1d3 w/out a battlefist and 1d4 with. That is correct. For the 2nd paragraph. I forgot the battlefist was not a light weapon so it would start at 16, and the 2 slams would also be available at a +11 each.
Banatine 10-23-07, 09:41 AM	1. Technically, the battlefist is not a weapon at all. All it does is increase your unarmed damage dice. Therefore, you would only take penalties as if you were fighting unarmed, right? 2. The Superior Unarmed Strike feat increases my Unarmed attack damage to 2d6. However, since my unarmed attacks are one size larger than normal, this becomes 3d6 per attack. Then, add flaming, shock, and frost thanks to the battlefists, and you have some pretty scary damage. 3. Can you use unarmed attacks (or natural weapons) while grappling or being grappled? If they can, i might think about becoming a reaping mauler/ juggernaught.
deathbane 10-23-07, 09:59 AM	1. Technically, the battlefist is not a weapon at all. All it does is increase your unarmed damage dice. Therefore, you would only take penalties as if you were fighting unarmed, right? 2. The Superior Unarmed Strike feat increases my Unarmed attack damage to 2d6. However, since my unarmed attacks are one size larger than normal, this becomes 3d6 per attack. Then, add flaming, shock, and frost thanks to the battlefists, and you have some pretty scary damage. 3. Can you use unarmed attacks (or natural weapons) while grappling or being grappled? If they can, i might think about becoming a reaping mauler/ juggernaught. 1. Actually it is a weapon. It is stated in the description. You can't combine the spikes with unarmed damage but if you were to use the gauntlets themselves as weapons it would do piercing, but that would be very inefficient, since you would only be doing 1d4. Logically(in real life) it would work as bludgeoning and peircing, but a lot of things are like that(such as improved crit and keen) are not allowed for game balance. 2. correct 3. yes
Banatine 12-04-07, 01:39 PM	I'm confused again now. :confused: This is how i understand it: Althought the battlefist is a weapon, all it does is increase your unarmed attack damage, so fighting while wearing two of them should still be treated as fighting with 2 light weapons, since unarmed attacks are light weapons, right? (if the battlefist was treated as a weapon, a warforged monk couldn't use it with a Flurry, so what would be the point?) So my attacks are +18/+13/+8/+3 for my main hand, +18/+13/+8 for my off hand (doing 3d6 + X each), and then +13/+13 for my slam attacks (doing 2d6 + Y each), right?
Belkar 12-04-07, 02:22 PM	There wouldn't be a point. This is to prevent a monk from wearing magic gauntlets and gaining their bonuses. :D It's a gauntlet. Plain and simple. A gauntlet is a weapon (with all the comensurate benefits), and a light weapon. It's damage is the damage that weapon does. Feat's that improve natural attack damage dice don't work on the gauntlet. It's a gauntlet - pre-made weapon.