Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wizard of Newfoundland 01-30-07, 02:23 PM	I don't know if this should go here or on magic and spells maybe I'll do both hehe :P we have 1 day to prepare ourselves and I would like some feedback on my plan. The party consists of: human beguiler 4/wiz 1/ UM 2 ( my DM let me change the preqs for spell casting) Wiz Cl = 8 ( practiced Spellcaster), Beguiler CL = 6 human cleric of pelor 6/ RSoP 1 (sun and strength domains) CL is 8 b/c of magic item Whisper Gnome rogue 6 I know the party is unbalanced but it is a long story so far here is my plan is Cleric Spells Prepared Resist Energy, Mass (SC) Cloak of Bravery (SC) Divine Power (PH) Darkfire (SC) Delay Death (SC) Wizard spells prepared Combust x3 (SC) Magic missile x 3or4 (PH) Scrolls Assay Spell Resistance x2 (SC) 1400gp-1 arcane and 1 divine Spectral Hand (PH) 150gp Haste (PH) 525gp (PH)- higher CL to last longer Tactics Pre-Battle Buff Energy resistance, mass (electricity) Cloak of Bravery Scroll of spectral Hand Assay Spell Resistance x2 (right before b/c of limited duration) Round 1 Cleric - Divine Power UM - Scroll of Haste Rogue - distract dragon/ drink potions to stay alive Round 2 Cleric - Dark Fire (4d6 damage) UM - Combust (8d8) Rogue - see above Round 3 Cleric - full attack action (4d6 + 4d6 +4d6)* b/c of DP and Haste UM - see above Rogue - see above repeat until either it or us dies/runs away When the rogue gets into a tight spot the cleric will cast delay death on him so he can last long enough to heal himself with potions. Man that was a long post, well there you have it
StevenO 01-30-07, 02:31 PM	Lets see, a Young Adult Bronze is CR 12 (a Young dragon is only CR 7) vs. a three member party with an ECL 7. I hope you don't plan on fighting it as you should lose every time barring incredible luck if the Dragon is well played.
Commx 01-30-07, 02:35 PM	The first big problem I can see at the moment is the fact that the entire plan will be ruïned by the dragon starting to fly above the party, which the dragon probably knows too. Basically, in the round 1 you're getting up the buffs, the dragon flies up and starts to breath on you untill you die/flee. You might want to re-think this plan a bit before attacking the dragon...;)
nightwyrm 01-30-07, 02:41 PM	Is there a reason you have to fight it? Bronze are LG, you might have better results by talking with it. If you insist on fighting...the big problem is that you aren't going to be able to do anything if the dragon just decides to strafe you from the sky.
wizard of Newfoundland 01-30-07, 03:16 PM	we would be fighting the dragon in a cave complex so it wouldn't be able to fly very high and the DM probably isn't going to play the Dragon intelligently (he's new). I mean he is playing it evilly and they are LG after all.
feraltibbit 01-30-07, 03:20 PM	First of all, it's good-aligned; so, A) some1 had 2 have REALLY ****** it off or... B) you guys are an evil-aligned party. Good luck if U R of a low-level.
Derren S. 01-30-07, 03:34 PM	Considering that you and the dragon are good (at least I have never seen an evil servant of Pelor) you should really try to talk than to fight. Your plan is also problematic as your main weapons are touch spells (Can Darkfire be thrown?). That means your casters must get into melee range of the dragon which means they will be toast very quickly. Or the dragon flies and you are defenseless except for some magic missiles. And there is no gurantee that the rogue can distract the dragon. Actually only a very stupid dragon would attack the rogue before the casters.
wizard of Newfoundland 01-30-07, 04:05 PM	Considering that you and the dragon are good (at least I have never seen an evil servant of Pelor) you should really try to talk than to fight. Well we were sent to rescue a kidnapped girl who was being help captive for no good reason other then he like to hear her play, so that doesn't seem very good to me. My DM obviously didn't look at the alignment and i don't think he will change it just b/c i tell him that the dragon should be LG. He would probably just say that it usually is LG but this one is different. Your plan is also problematic as your main weapons are touch spells (Can Darkfire be thrown?). That means your casters must get into melee range of the dragon which means they will be toast very quickly. Well that is why i bought a scroll of spectral hand so i could stay back, there isn't a range stated or a movement speed for the hand so i assume it can fly anywhere within the medium range. And yes Darkfire has a range of 120ft And there is no gurantee that the rogue can distract the dragon. Actually only a very stupid dragon would attack the rogue before the casters. Well i did mention that the DM is pretty new so he isn't going to be playing the dragon intelligently, but yes that could be a problem We don't really have to attack it, we could run but it is planning on attacking the town b/c of us stealing his prized musician. So pretty much it comes down to attack or run since this dragon IS EVIL and the general consensus seems to be run.
Derren S. 01-30-07, 04:16 PM	usually Always /nitpick Well that is why i bought a scroll of spectral hand so i could stay back, there isn't a range stated or a movement speed for the hand so i assume it can fly anywhere within the medium range. And yes Darkfire has a range of 120ft We don't really have to attack it, we could run but it is planning on attacking the town b/c of us stealing his prized musician. So pretty much it comes down to attack or run since this dragon IS EVIL and the general consensus seems to be run. Good luck getting your hand not destroyed. I don't think that it can make the reflex save against the cragons breath and with its DR the dragon can also attack the hand normally. (But you should be more concerned what happens when the dragon full attacks you). Besides teh dragon doesn't sound to evil when the only reason for the kidnapping is singing. Considering the power level of the dragon and the circumstances I think your DM expects you to trick the dragon (or distract it till the rogue can rescue the girl alone). Or when you arrive at the cave you will see that the girl and the dragon already became best friends.
primemover003 01-30-07, 04:29 PM	Just because Bronze is good aligned in the books doesn't mean it is in a Campaign. It could be an Eberron campaign afterall. OK first off don't ignore any animals, it could be the Bronze in disguise or one of it's many spies (as it can speak with animals). Try not to fight it in or near the water as it has a significant advatage there. I really hope your beguiler's illusions are good because with only a cleric, arcane caster, and rogue you're dogmeat. Keep the wyrm distracted and attacking phantasms and you should be able to escape with your lives. I don't recommend direct confrontation.
wizard of Newfoundland 01-30-07, 05:23 PM	Good luck getting your hand not destroyed well it is incorporeal so that eliminates physical attacks and constitutes a 50% miss chance on the breath weapon b/c it's from a corporeal source if i recall. and with its DR the dragon can also attack the hand normally How does DR relate to attacking the hand, isn't that -5 damage on all our nonmagical attacks it has 189 HP total (using the average scores in the MM) and we would deal 180 with average rolls over 4 rounds. It can't really fly out of our reach in the cave. Assuming it starts its turn with it's breath weapon thats an average of 30 dmg - 20 b/c of resist energy, mass to one of us (its a line) thats one round gone there. Then it attacks the rogue b/c we haven't really cast anything to **** it off more then the rogue yet (that is how out DM would think). Thats another round gone. Then if it movies into attack one of us the cleric has that immediate action delay death to keep us going. If we can tough out 1 more round then it should be dead.
Derren S. 01-30-07, 05:33 PM	How does DR relate to attacking the hand, isn't that -5 damage on all our nonmagical attacks The dragon has DR/magic and thus its attacks are also considered magical. it has 189 HP total (using the average scores in the MM) and we would deal 180 with average rolls over 4 rounds. It can't really fly out of our reach in the cave. Assuming that you hit every time, can always do full attacks and the dragon never makes its save. Assuming it starts its turn with it's breath weapon thats an average of 30 dmg - 20 b/c of resist energy, mass to one of us (its a line) thats one round gone there. Then it attacks the rogue b/c we haven't really cast anything to **** it off more then the rogue yet (that is how out DM would think). Thats another round gone. Then if it movies into attack one of us the cleric has that immediate action delay death to keep us going. If we can tough out 1 more round then it should be dead. If your DM is very new (= The dragon is played very stupid) this might work. Otherwise no chance. The dragon will simply stay out of range (Normally the caves are big enough to let them fly) and blast you with the Breath weapon. You also disregard any buffs that the dragon can cast on itself.
wizard of Newfoundland 01-30-07, 06:02 PM	The dragon has DR/magic and thus its attacks are also considered magical. I honestly never knew that thanks for the info and the dragon never makes its save. These spells offer no saving throws The dragon will simply stay out of range (Normally the caves are big enough to let them fly) and blast you with the Breath weapon. Our range is 120ft for darkfire and 180ft for combust (since no movement speed is given for the hand i assume it can move anywhere within 100+10ft/CL). This cave isn't large enough to let it escape our long arms You also disregard any buffs that the dragon can cast on itself. o.k. he doesn't know about my supposed attack and won't think up any buffs on the fly as he is pretty new, i'm not even sure he knows that the dragon cast spells as a 5th level sorc. This is the 1st time he has DMed since a campaign he did back in 2nd edition.
Derren S. 01-30-07, 06:06 PM	The hand can basically teleport around the range of the spell so it can be everywhere instantly. But hasn't combust a reflex save for half? And hoping that the DM doesn't understand the rules is not a very nice thing. I should try to find some BADD Members and send them over to your DM...
wizard of Newfoundland 01-30-07, 06:23 PM	But hasn't combust a reflex save for half? It has a ref partial but that is to not catch on fire, the DC is a pitiful 15, the save is not related to the dmg. And hoping that the DM doesn't understand the rules is not a very nice thing. I should try to find some BADD Members and send them over to your DM... This DM has a bad habit of sending us up against impossible odds and then complaining when we can't survive the battle. I was hoping to finally survive one of his battles (even if I am relying on his sub-par understanding of how to play a dragon). We have talked to him about it and he promises to take it easier but it never happens.
crimsonwolf 01-30-07, 06:35 PM	ur wizard finds a yu-gi-oh dragon caputre jar.. in a deck of many things......
wizard of Newfoundland 01-30-07, 07:32 PM	nobody needs to respond to this post anymore as i just discovered the shivering touch spell from frostburn. Bye Bye dragon :evillaugh + it will stack with my ray of clumsiness b/c one is damage and the other is a penalty.
Bruunwald 01-30-07, 07:46 PM	Practiced Spellcaster (possibly my favorite feat) allows you to add levels of another class to your caster level in the chosen spellcasting class, up to a limit of +4, and does not stack if you take it twice. Your caster level as wizard should be 5. Though I am not sure what UM stands for. Does it add caster levels to another class? That still would be only CL 7. Wouldn't it? Just trying to understand the math.
Kayli 01-30-07, 07:53 PM	nobody needs to respond to this post anymore as i just discovered the shivering touch spell from frostburn. Bye Bye dragon :evillaugh + it will stack with my ray of clumsiness b/c one is damage and the other is a penalty. In other words, you just added a new spell to your spell book just before a major battle. Your DM must be a Chump.
WinDReiN 01-30-07, 07:57 PM	nobody needs to respond to this post anymore as i just discovered the shivering touch spell from frostburn. Bye Bye dragon :evillaugh + it will stack with my ray of clumsiness b/c one is damage and the other is a penalty. Your Dm is gonna hate you for that :)..., especially cause he's new and lacks experience for DMing. Don't forget the True Strike spell, and a possible 1 on a attack roll. Memorize two, or buy a scroll :D.
primemover003 01-30-07, 08:27 PM	nobody needs to respond to this post anymore as i just discovered the shivering touch spell from frostburn. Bye Bye dragon :evillaugh + it will stack with my ray of clumsiness b/c one is damage and the other is a penalty. Remember the damage comes first then the penalty... But you are a cheating bastard if you try that combo, especially with a new DM. Try telling him to learn the rules a little better instead of engaging in an arms race... just because the spell is in a book doesn't mean you're automatically allowed to take it. Anything outside of the PHB and your DM should have full right to say NO to.
crimsonwolf 01-30-07, 08:30 PM	touch of stupidty on the dice rolls ... dragon rolls nothing but 1's for the next 3 turns....
Kayli 01-30-07, 08:55 PM	There are a couple of things too. Dragons are smart enough to figure out, that the people in robes and not wearing any armor are spell casters, and so ignore the little thief and go for the unarmored ones first. Also Practiced Spellcaster (possibly my favorite feat) allows you to add levels of another class to your caster level in the chosen spellcasting class, up to a limit of +4, and does not stack if you take it twice. Your caster level as wizard should be 5. Though I am not sure what UM stands for. Does it add caster levels to another class? That still would be only CL 7. Wouldn't it? Just trying to understand the math. It has one other limitation. The increased Castter lvl is only for effects of casting spells, and does not grant you more spell lvls. For instance it raises your caster lvl, when determining the number of dmg die to roll, spell duration and for caster lvl checks when dealing with dispel magic or Spell Penetration checks. So, If UM (whatever that is) if it grants Wizard Caster lvls then you would only be able to access spells as if you were a 3 lvl wizard (only second lvl spells) you spells per day would be same as 3 lvl wizard. Familier only have stat boosts of a 3 lvl wiz. But when you cast Magic Missile you would get 4 missiles. If UM (whatever that is), does not grant you Wiz spell progression then you can only cast 1 lvl spells. Really when you think about it, you have a sub optimal build, You've just been cheating. Maybe the reason you guys have been going up against "impossible oods" so much is that Your DM knows it.
runestar 01-30-07, 09:43 PM	nobody needs to respond to this post anymore as i just discovered the shivering touch spell from frostburn. Bye Bye dragon + it will stack with my ray of clumsiness b/c one is damage and the other is a penalty. I was kinda hoping you didn't. This spell makes a mockery of any dragon battle, barring white dragons...:rolleyes:
Derren S. 01-31-07, 01:16 AM	I was kinda hoping you didn't. This spell makes a mockery of any dragon battle, barring white dragons...:rolleyes: Not to mention that it is very obvious that this whole spell is a big mistake. Using it is imo more like cheating.
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 09:45 AM	In other words, you just added a new spell to your spell book just before a major battle. Your DM must be a Chump. It's a Cleric 3 spell also
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 09:53 AM	Practiced Spellcaster (possibly my favorite feat) allows you to add levels of another class to your caster level in the chosen spellcasting class, up to a limit of +4, and does not stack if you take it twice. Your caster level as wizard should be 5. Though I am not sure what UM stands for. Does it add caster levels to another class? That still would be only CL 7. Wouldn't it? Just trying to understand the math. UM stands for Ultimate Magus which is a Prestige class based on having both spontaneous (beguiler) and prepared spellcasting (wiz) at level 1 gives a +1CL to all your arcane spellcasting classes and over my 2 levels so far beguiler has gotten +1 existing spellcasting class and my wiz has gotten +2 That gives my Wiz a CL of 4 and according to the FAQ practiced spellcaster applys in whichever way it has the best effect, so 3 (wiz) + 4(PS) +1(UM) = 8 It has one other limitation. The increased Caster lvl is only for effects of casting spells, and does not grant you more spell lvls. For instance it raises your caster lvl, when determining the number of dmg die to roll, spell duration and for caster lvl checks when dealing with dispel magic or Spell Penetration checks. see above I an effectively a 3rd level wiz for determining spells/day and spells known UM is on page 77 of complete mage if anybody wants to know and i will restate that my DM let me switch the spellcasting preqs. Really when you think about it, you have a sub optimal build well by level 15 I will be casting spells as a level 11 beguiler and a level 11 wiz but my CL will be 19, i don't think that is sub-optimal. also i get the ability to "burn" spells from one spells list the metamagic a spell from the other list without raising the level. You've just been cheating why does everybody keep saying I'm cheating! I will tell my DM about the spell before hand and see what he says but his attitude is usually that anything that will make us better ( b/c he keeps saying we blow) then do it.
Kayli 01-31-07, 11:31 AM	UM stands for Ultimate Magus which is a Prestige class based on having both spontaneous (beguiler) and prepared spellcasting (wiz) at level 1 gives a +1CL to all your arcane spellcasting classes and over my 2 levels so far beguiler has gotten +1 existing spellcasting class and my wiz has gotten +2 That gives my Wiz a CL of 4 and according to the FAQ practiced spellcaster applys in whichever way it has the best effect, so 3 (wiz) + 4(PS) +1(UM) = 8 see above I an effectively a 3rd level wiz for determining spells/day and spells known UM is on page 77 of complete mage if anybody wants to know and i will restate that my DM let me switch the spellcasting preqs. Ok, that looks fine i guess. well by level 15 I will be casting spells as a level 11 beguiler and a level 11 wiz but my CL will be 19, i don't think that is sub-optimal. also i get the ability to "burn" spells from one spells list the metamagic a spell from the other list without raising the level. I don't see where yuo're getting your math. 11+4 is still only 15. You can't take PS twice, at least not for the same spell casting class. why does everybody keep saying I'm cheating! I will tell my DM about the spell before hand and see what he says but his attitude is usually that anything that will make us better ( b/c he keeps saying we blow) then do it. I'm sorry I called you a cheater, I thought you were implying that you where going to add the spell to your spell list, and not ask the Cleric to Prepare it. however it does seem like you are taking advantage of a new, and or inexperienced DM. You keep saying that you go up against these nearly impossible battles - that you have brought this to your DM's attention, and that he has promised to amend his encounters but has failed to do so. I see three possibilities for this. 1. He is too inexperienced to find encounters that are appropreate for your party lvl. 2. He knows your taking advantage of him and so is intentionaly ramping up the Encounter lvls. 3. He is Power Gaming. If he is Power Gaming then you are not taking advantage of him, but that dragon should mop the floor with you all, if he plays it right. If he plays it poorly then you should pretty well crush it. This would also mean that he is too inexperienced to run a Power Game Effectively.
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 11:46 AM	Ok, that looks fine i guess. I don't see where yuo're getting your math. 11+4 is still only 15. You can't take PS twice, at least not for the same spell casting class. o.k. i guess i should explain in full instead of hoping that you knew of the prestige class :D Ultimate Magus offers a total of +4 Cl to both arcane classes throughout its 10 levels (levels 1,4,7,10). that on top of already having PS (wiz) and I'm planning on taking PS (beguiler) at level 9, this will give a total of 11CL from spellcasting levels + 4 from UM + 4 from PS = 19CL for both spellcasting classes at level 15 2. He knows your taking advantage of him and so is intentionaly ramping up the Encounter lvls. We haven't been taking adavantage of him, we have been running away from virtually 70% of our battles b/c we almost die and i was hoping to finally beat something that was hard.
Zaistars69 01-31-07, 12:15 PM	o.k. i guess i should explain in full instead of hoping that you knew of the prestige class :D Ultimate Magus offers a total of +4 Cl to both arcane classes throughout its 10 levels (levels 1,4,7,10). that on top of already having PS (wiz) and I'm planning on taking PS (beguiler) at level 9, this will give a total of 11CL from spellcasting levels + 4 from UM + 4 from PS = 19CL for both spellcasting classes at level 15 We haven't been taking adavantage of him, we have been running away from virtually 70% of our battles b/c we almost die and i was hoping to finally beat something that was hard. When using practiced spellcaster your caster level can never be higher than your HD you are adding wrong somewhere. Unfortunetly I don't have my book right now but you need to take a closer look at it before someone you are playing with calls you a cheater. If you want a caster level higher than your HD you have to use magic items like the 40,000gp Ioun stone.
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 12:25 PM	When using practiced spellcaster your caster level can never be higher than your HD you are adding wrong somewhere. Unfortunetly I don't have my book right now but you need to take a closer look at it before someone you are playing with calls you a cheater. If you want a caster level higher than your HD you have to use magic items like the 40,000gp Ioun stone. From the D&D FAQ The bonus from Practiced Spellcaster applies whenever it would be most beneficial to the caster. A 4th-level cleric/4thlevel fighter with the Healing domain and Practiced Spellcaster would cast Conjuration (Healing) spells as a 9th-level caster (base caster level 4th, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +1 from the Healing domain). Using this logic my build works, you add PS after the CL boosts from Ultimate Magus
Derren S. 01-31-07, 12:31 PM	Which contradicts the next FAQ entry about Practiced Spellcaster and the Wild Mage. If it works like you say the Wild Mage would always get +1-6 to its caster level (-3 Wild Mage +3 Practiced Spellcaster +1d6 Wild Mage Boost) Don't you love contradicting FAQ entries?
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 12:42 PM	Which contradicts the next FAQ entry about Practiced Spellcaster and the Wild Mage. If it works like you say the Wild Mage would always get +1-6 to its caster level (-3 Wild Mage +3 Practiced Spellcaster +1d6 Wild Mage Boost) Don't you love contradicting FAQ entries? weird I didn't read that part because I've never made a Wild Mage. I think i will e-mail wizards about this one actually
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 01:08 PM	I just e-mailed wizards, but the typical response time is 48h so in the mean time i am gonna post this question to the magic and spells board or the feats and skills. If anybody has an answer please let me know
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 01:56 PM	I got a response from silverthumb126 on the feats and skills board that sounds reasonable to me. The reason that you take the -3 then +1d6 then + PS and not -3 + PS + 1d6 is b/c the -3/+1d6 is considered as one ability and therefore applied simultaneously before PS So the actual math is Wild magic + practiced spellcaster, you can't break up wild magic into it's separate components of -3 and +1d6 then insert PS wherever it fits best So PS still works for me b/c my abilities don't have separate components just plain old +X and therefore they all get applied in the best possible order
Zaistars69 01-31-07, 02:25 PM	I got a response from silverthumb126 on the feats and skills board that sounds reasonable to me. The reason that you take the -3 then +1d6 then + PS and not -3 + PS + 1d6 is b/c the -3/+1d6 is considered as one ability and therefore applied simultaneously before PS So the actual math is Wild magic + practiced spellcaster, you can't break up wild magic into it's separate components of -3 and +1d6 then insert PS wherever it fits best So PS still works for me b/c my abilities don't have separate components just plain old +X and therefore they all get applied in the best possible order All that works fine as long as you remember that practiced spell caster will never allow your caster level to exceed your HD. It's written in the Feat description.
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 02:51 PM	All that works fine as long as you remember that practiced spell caster will never allow your caster level to exceed your HD. It's written in the Feat description. According to the FAQ i would apply it like this: 3+4(PS)+1(UM)=8 My understanding is that this doesn't cause PS to exceed my HD, as it is actually the UM bonus that exceeds my HD which doesn't have any restrictions. yes indirectly it is causing my CL to increase beyond my HD but the full bonus can be applied to increase my CL to 7 then UM makes it go over.
Derren S. 01-31-07, 02:56 PM	One interpretation is that the bonus from PD decreases when your CL exceeds your HD.
Zaistars69 01-31-07, 03:06 PM	According to the FAQ i would apply it like this: 3+4(PS)+1(UM)=8 My understanding is that this doesn't cause PS to exceed my HD, as it is actually the UM bonus that exceeds my HD which doesn't have any restrictions. yes indirectly it is causing my CL to increase beyond my HD but the full bonus can be applied to increase my CL to 7 then UM makes it go over. No, if your HD is 7 then your highest caster level with PS is 7 (baring the exceptions I put in above). The "bonus" form UM is no different than any other prestige class providing caster level increases. I suggest re-reading UM (as I will do tonight when I get home) because it seems you're interpereting it incorrectly.
Zaistars69 01-31-07, 03:08 PM	One interpretation is that the bonus from PD decreases when your CL exceeds your HD. It's not that the bonus decreases. the bonus is still there you just can't use it until you gain more casterless HD. Much like using gloves of dex to bring your dex from 11 to 13 and taking the dodge feat. As long as you have the gloves on you can use the feat, but when the gloves come off you can't use the feat, the feat is still there it's just not available.
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 03:16 PM	One interpretation is that the bonus from PD decreases when your CL exceeds your HD Actually this was my first assumption until i found the artical in the FAQ This is the example given in the FAQ A 4th-level cleric/4thlevelfighter with the Healing domain and Practiced Spellcaster would cast Conjuration (Healing) spells as a 9th-level caster(base caster level 4th, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +1 from the Healing domain). A 4th-level cleric/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster who activates a bead of karma (from a strand of prayer beads) would cast her spells as a 12th-level caster (base 4, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +4 from bead of karma). Using your logic these examples are incorrect. The CL of the fighter/cleric is 9 but should be 8 b/c PS can't bring it above your HD. Same goes for the rogue/cleric with the bread of karma.
Zaistars69 01-31-07, 03:27 PM	Actually this was my first assumption until i found the artical in the FAQ This is the example given in the FAQ Using your logic these examples are incorrect. The CL of the fighter/cleric is 9 but should be 8 b/c PS can't bring it above your HD. Same goes for the rogue/cleric with the bread of karma. Negative, as I stated above magic items can increase your caster level above your HD. Feats and class based spell casting are what's the issue here. For this discussion you have to ignore magic items, they can always do things that you don't necessarily do. Read practiced spellcaster again. It has your answer right there. That particular FAQ article only applies to magic items (and the domain power)
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 03:38 PM	That particular FAQ article only applies to magic items (and the domain power) but how is the domain power different then the UM CL boost. from complete mage Arcane Spell power At 1st level your caster level for all arcane spells increases by 1. It increases again at 4th level, 7th level, and 10th level from the PH Healing Domain You cast healing spells at +1 caster level
Zaistars69 01-31-07, 03:43 PM	If that is how the class ability works than I would rule that it doesn't stack the practiced spell caster since that is effectively what the class is doing. the way to look at it is this. Without the feat will your caster level ever be above your HD...no. so the practiced spell caster won't stack. Now with the cleric the answer would be yes (for good spells, or which ever domain you have) so the practiced spell caster while casting with agood spell could take it up to HD+1. I think at that point it becomes a house rule, until they FAQ or Errat it.
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 03:51 PM	so we can agree to disagree until i get a response back from wizards (i did mention about ultimate magus so hopefully they will address it specifically.) Nice debate though really spiced up my day :D If you like I could PM you with the answer when i get it.
Khael 01-31-07, 03:55 PM	Ummm... I doubt the dragon IS evil. Are you certain its a bronze dragon and not a brass (have your PC's seen it and identified it well, or have they merely been told about it) Because if it is a brass dragon... it's still good. The good-aligned brass dragons according to dragon magic are total... well, they see nothing wrong with kidnapping people simply to talk to them. And talk. And talk... while still being good, so you might not have to fight after all...
Zaistars69 01-31-07, 03:57 PM	so we can agree to disagree until i get a response back from wizards (i did mention about ultimate magus so hopefully they will address it specifically.) Nice debate though really spiced up my day :D If you like I could PM you with the answer when i get it. That'd be cool, thanks,
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 04:09 PM	Ummm... I doubt the dragon IS evil. Are you certain its a bronze dragon and not a brass (have your PC's seen it and identified it well, or have they merely been told about it) Because if it is a brass dragon... it's still good. The good-aligned brass dragons according to dragon magic are total... well, they see nothing wrong with kidnapping people simply to talk to them. And talk. And talk... while still being good, so you might not have to fight after all... well when we found her she was weeping hysterically and had big claw marks running across the length of her face, and no they did not look like anything a human could do. Then the dragon came out and told her to play the harp. That doesn't seem to good to me (the claws not the harp)
StevenO 01-31-07, 05:16 PM	I can't tell wether this thread has gotten back on topic or not but I still think a short pary of 7th level character has no chance in combat against a CR 12 dragon and needs to resolve the encounter with diplomacy (most likely) or avoidance. As for the Ultimate Magus effect on caster levels and Practiced Spellcaster. The UM grants +1 spellcasting abilities (often twice) at each level. Four times it also adds +1 to your Caster Level for all arcane casting classes which doesn't increase your number of spells but does increase their power. Practiced Spellcaster lets you add +4 to your basic casting level (where your spells/day are measured) to determine your caster level up to your number of HD. You may then add other things that increase your CL such as the bonus for UM. In the case of a Wild Mage the CL modifier for the class is (+1d6-3) which must be taken as a whole; you may choose which CL modifier to apply first but they still suffer their restrictions. If the d6 of a Wild Mage came up 1 the WM could cast with a -2 CL by applying PS first then the (+1-3) or at its normal level going (+1-3)+4(max HD).
wizard of Newfoundland 01-31-07, 06:02 PM	I still think a short pary of 7th level character has no chance in combat against a CR 12 dragon and needs to resolve the encounter with diplomacy (most likely) or avoidance. with shivering touch (pending DM approval) thats 3d6 dex damage then ray of clumsiness which does 1d6 +1/2CL dex penalty we are pretty much guaranteed to do at least impose -10 dex on the dragon in a maximum of 2 rounds (assuming i have to buy a scroll of Assay spell resistance).
LordHell 01-31-07, 06:29 PM	A CR12 Dragon would own a EL10ish party. The problem is though, this isn't exactly a CR12 Dragon. Firstly by the sounds of things it can't fly. Thats 1 or 2 off its CR right there. Secondly the party knows _everything_ about the Dragon, which is another 1 or so off its CR. Really, its like an EL10 party vs an EL10 encounter. It's a 50/50 encounter. As the DM I certainly would not give out full XP for this encounter. If the DM plays the dragon smart, it still has a good chance of whipping the party into TPK land even with the spells they are armed with, hence why it's roughly a 50/50 encounter. If the Dragon wins initiative it will take longer than two rounds to kill the Dragon, as resouces will have to be spent on healing an so forth. I.E. Round 1 it casts Mirror Image, displacement, etc. Thats a round wasted on dispel magic that may not even work, and if you havnt got dispel magic you're royally screwed with your touch attacks. And what if the party gets into the cave and finds it's actually a white dragon? (I.E a Bronze Dragon using Disguise-Self as a White Dragon). This encounters difficulty basically rests in the hands of the DM.
DeadEye19 01-31-07, 06:44 PM	I hate those "I am going to fight monster X, need ideas" posts. Such metagame thinking, no originallity. If your character has some time to think about it, like you obviously do, it would think this out through the long, sleepless night. But you gave it a passing thought, and came here to listen to ways tried, analyzed and debated by others, methods that would render the dragon much less of a challange. It's not as much as "tactics" as it is an algorithem. For the game's sake, stop it, all, and come up with your own ideas!
Kayli 02-01-07, 12:32 AM	o.k. i guess i should explain in full instead of hoping that you knew of the prestige class :D Ultimate Magus offers a total of +4 Cl to both arcane classes throughout its 10 levels (levels 1,4,7,10). that on top of already having PS (wiz) and I'm planning on taking PS (beguiler) at level 9, this will give a total of 11CL from spellcasting levels + 4 from UM + 4 from PS = 19CL for both spellcasting classes at level 15 Lets try to do the Math again. 1 lvl Wizard. + 2 lvl from UM + 4 (virtual CL) from PSC. = Effective Caster Level (hence forth for this thread to be called ECL) of only 7 (and not 8). Beguiler caster lvl 4 + 1 from Magus = Beguiler CL of 5 (No PSC yet for Beguiler). After 15 total lvls 4 Beg/1 Wiz/10 UM. According to your description of UM, you will have caster lvl beguiler 8, wiz 5, with an ECL of 12 and 9 respectively from PSC. You seem to be double adding caster lvls somewhere? We haven't been taking adavantage of him, we have been running away from virtually 70% of our battles b/c we almost die and i was hoping to finally beat something that was hard. I was mearly offering that as one of three reasons he might be piling up on you guys, but IMHO it was obvious that the more likely reason was inexperience. I think it might not be a bad idea to have a sit down with your DM and talk to him about what a CR means.
Kayli 02-01-07, 12:41 AM	*double post*
wizard of Newfoundland 02-01-07, 02:44 PM	the math is correct you are forgetting the UM CL bonus' In UM at all levels except 1,4, and 7 both casters gain +1 spellcasting ability. At these levels only the lowest level increases(wiz), leveling out to 11 each by level 15 4 levels of beguiler, +1 spellcasting ability from UM, +1 from the UM ability Arcane spell Power (see below) = 6CL 1 level of wiz +2 spellcasting ability from UM + 4 from PS +1 from Arcane spell power = 8CL 4 Beguiler/wiz 1/UM 10 = CL 11 without Arcane spell power or PS then you add PS to bring the CL up to 15, then add on +4 from Arcane spell power. CL =19
Kayli 02-02-07, 01:34 AM	the math is correct you are forgetting the UM CL bonus' In UM at all levels except 1,4, and 7 both casters gain +1 spellcasting ability. At these levels only the lowest level increases(wiz), leveling out to 11 each by level 15 4 levels of beguiler, +1 spellcasting ability from UM, +1 from the UM ability Arcane spell Power (see below) = 6CL 1 level of wiz +2 spellcasting ability from UM + 4 from PS +1 from Arcane spell power = 8CL 4 Beguiler/wiz 1/UM 10 = CL 11 without Arcane spell power or PS then you add PS to bring the CL up to 15, then add on +4 from Arcane spell power. CL =19 I don't know what the Special abilites of the UM are, so I can't argue the math any more. But it does not *feel* right. I still think your doing something wrong, but, not having the book, I can't make any arguements. If this encounter is an example of the Norm, as you suggest, you need to show your DM table 3-2 on page 49 of the DMG which states quite clearly that encountes of this dificulty should happen no more then 5% of the time. Best of luck on your battle.