Bayonet [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Bayonet [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dvlsadvct
08-04-06, 12:39 PM My DM has recently given me permission to commission a new weapon. What I wanted was a light crossbow with a dagger fixed to the front a la bayonet. I am also getting this at no EWP cost*. (he gave someone else a whip dagger and thats why I brought it up in the first place)

Now I am trying to run some stats on it.

If anyone knows where one exists in books this would be a good time to inform me outright.

Bayonet

Exotic*(see above for my instance)
Two handed weapon* (see below)

Prerequisite: Proficiency with designated crossbow

Cost: 10gp
Dmg: s(1d3), m(1d4)
Critical: 19-20x2
Range increment: -
Weight: 1lb
Type: Piercing

A bayonet must be affixed to a crossbow in order to function normally.

Normally, operating a bayonet requires two hands. However, you can attack with a bayonet one handed at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can attack with a bayonet in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow that it is affixed to of the same size. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed attacking.

You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for firing a ranged weapon while equipped with a bayonet.

While equipped with a bayonet you threaten all squares in which you can attack in melee. You may flank with a bayonet, however, you still may not gain any flanking bonuses while using a ranged weapon.

This last part is to mean that if you attack with the bayonet you and the person(s) you are flanking with gain all the benefits of flanking. If you attack with the crossbow in melee you do not gain the benefit of flanking, but the person you are flanking with does.(because you still threaten, technically)

Or would you say that in melee you gain flanking bonuses regardless of how you attack?

Questions, comments, ideas?
Whisper_Swiftblade
08-04-06, 12:54 PM I would just give it dagger stats and a requirementy for an exotic weapon feat to use
R2-DS
08-04-06, 01:17 PM Bayonet: 3.0 Song and Silence Page 52

Small Martial Weapon
Cost 5gp
damage 1d4
Crit 19-20
Weight 2 lbs
Type: Piercing
Hardness 10 1hp

Origionally intended as a bard item it is described as being affixed to the neck of an instrument. Although crossbow would certainly not be out of the question. Also states that a bayonet can be set against a charge.

And there you have it.
Kursk
08-04-06, 03:34 PM Bayonet

Exotic*(see above for my instance)
Two handed weapon* (see below)
Prerequisite: Proficiency with designated crossbow
A bayonet must be affixed to a crossbow in order to function normally.

I have owned one that was made for an M1. It's a dagger. Crossbow prof will not help you. A bayonet is fixed to a rifle to give you a spear like weapon. Won't work with a crossbow.
R2-DS
08-04-06, 03:42 PM If you are comparing a bayonet fixed to a rifle with that of one fixed to a crossbow....then I must say that it WILL work.

If you could point out what prevents the bayonet from working on the end of a crossbow that might help your position. "Having owned one" doesnt seem to be very compelling.
Callahan
08-04-06, 03:58 PM well i think the biggest issue is that the bows will get in the way of your attack. When you're trying to stab someone with the end of the bow it becomes easy for the opponent to grab or hit the bow ends to deflect your attack.

It would be more effective to use the butt of the cross bow to attack, but you don't want anything pointy down there.

an alternative is to put blades on the outside of the bows that you can attack with.
R2-DS
08-04-06, 04:02 PM Take a look at some Bayonets throughout history. Some were in excess of 18 inches. I really dont think that it would interfere with using it on a crossbow.
Kursk
08-04-06, 06:13 PM If you could point out what prevents the bayonet from working on the end of a crossbow that might help your position. "Having owned one" doesnt seem to be very compelling.

It's too obvious to have to go into. :rofl:
Bob Loblaw
08-04-06, 06:48 PM Take this from someone who has actually used a bayonet, in the military. (Note that when I say "used," I mean, "spent one day in training.")

A bayonet is really just a dagger. It works just fine whether or not it's attached to another weapon. It would work just fine at the end of a crossbow. The bayonet would, technically, attach under the front end of the crossbow. It should not interfere with any part of the bow itself.

I would probably require Exotic Weapon Proficiency to learn how to use it in this fashion. I think I would no longer consider it a light weapon, which would allow for things like Power Attack. I may allow Weapon Finesse to still work with it. Other than that, I don't see it being any real advantage.
Insane Pixie
08-04-06, 06:51 PM d20 Modern tacks the Bayonet damage at d6.
fatal error
08-04-06, 06:58 PM Having a bayonet shouldn't do anything for negating AoOs for firing a ranged weapon, not like you can block significantly better than with a normal crossbow.
Thane26425
08-04-06, 07:27 PM The problem with bayonettes is that they throw off the balance of the weapon. A -1 penalty would not be out of line for firing with a fixed bayonet.
CryoSilver
08-04-06, 09:11 PM Throwing off the balance is a just matter of spending 5 minutes learning to compensate; no penalty to hit. When I strapped a mag light to my paintball gun for a night game, it took me about a dozen shots to compensate for the weight, then I was spot on again (though in the future, I'll be using a lighter flasglight).
R2-DS
08-04-06, 09:24 PM It's too obvious to have to go into. :rofl:

You may choose to laugh at my comments, but perhaps you might consider that I too may have something to offer to the topic.

And no I have never "owned" a bayonet. All the bayonets i've ever worked with were "ISSUED" to me :D .

That being said, I reiterate my position that it "can" indeed be fixed to the end of a crossbow and be completely functional.
keropie
08-04-06, 09:56 PM The only thing I'd worry about at all is how well a crossbow would stand up to being rammed into someone's body (i.e., when the bayonet goes in, and the bowarms smack up against the target). It seems like it might be bad for the bow.

But regardless, I'd go with dagger damage, and would probably keep it at light. It certainly stretches my imagination that you could power attack effectively without damaging the bow (or the lute, if you went with the bard version ;))
filistimo
08-04-06, 11:45 PM You may choose to laugh at my comments, but perhaps you might consider that I too may have something to offer to the topic.

And no I have never "owned" a bayonet. All the bayonets i've ever worked with were "ISSUED" to me :D .

That being said, I reiterate my position that it "can" indeed be fixed to the end of a crossbow and be completely functional.

Not completely, you couldn't set it against a charge.
R2-DS
08-04-06, 11:55 PM Not completely, you couldn't set it against a charge.

Listen, the "set to receive charge" is clearly spelled out in an official WOTC product.....if you disagree with it then dont use it. I was only answering the OP with what he/she asked for, and that was.....if it already existed in a book somewhere. Again "Song and Silence" page 52.

Please dont post an answer like that without supporting your position.

Cheers!
narukagami
08-05-06, 12:45 AM Wasn't there a crossbow with ax-like blades in the 3.0 Arms and Equipment guide?

If so, just use that.
Callahan
08-05-06, 01:57 PM it's a special magical item and deals 1d8/x2 slashing damage.
The_Normal_Anomaly
08-05-06, 07:43 PM d20 Modern tacks the Bayonet damage at d6.

I thought that was the butt of the rifle, because they insisted on saying that it becomes a double weapon. A 1d4 peircing at one end and 1d6 bludgeoning at the other. It looks to me that you could still threaten squares near you by taking that (this isn't a rule, but seriously) free action to stop calling it a crossbow and retitle it a club. If you are really using a crossbow, you probably don't have a great strength score, so the diffrence is almost minimal for you using a bayonet and a clubbing. Only the club tactic doesn't eat a feat. You could get a repeater for that extra feat you are thinking of or take rapid reload. The crossbow isn't really meant to be a main weapon in all but a few instances. You almost need PHBII to make it worth it. If you want a diffrent weapon, you could try something like this.

Bladecrossbow
A bladecrossbow is a magic crossbow that transforms into a magic short sword (and back again) upon command. Each bladecrossbow is a specific make of crossbow. The crossbow and short sword versions of the weapon possess the same enhancement bonus (+1 to +3). Turning the crossbow into a short sword—and vice versa— takes a move action. A bladecrossbow in crossbow form must be loaded with ammunition to fire (as any crossbow).

A :thumbsup: to anyone who figures out what OGL item I converted to form the above.
gomibako_ninja
08-05-06, 08:06 PM Bladecrossbow
A bladecrossbow is a magic crossbow that transforms into a magic short sword (and back again) upon command. Each bladecrossbow is a specific make of crossbow. The crossbow and short sword versions of the weapon possess the same enhancement bonus (+1 to +3). Turning the crossbow into a short sword—and vice versa— takes a move action. A bladecrossbow in crossbow form must be loaded with ammunition to fire (as any crossbow).

A :thumbsup: to anyone who figures out what OGL item I converted to form the above.

Swordbow from Races of the Wild. (I prefer payment in :cookie:s)

Back on topic, I would think that a bayonet wouldn't have a dagger's threat range, being a more awkward weapon to use than a dagger, thus making crits more difficult.
Kursk
08-05-06, 08:42 PM Swordbow from Races of the Wild. (I prefer payment in :cookie:s)

Back on topic, I would think that a bayonet wouldn't have a dagger's threat range, being a more awkward weapon to use than a dagger, thus making crits more difficult.

With it stuck on the end of a crossbow it would be like jabbing with a dagger but much more clumsy. Probably -4 to hit. Piercing only. With the shape of the X-bow it would be easy to disarm.
filistimo
08-05-06, 11:37 PM Listen, the "set to receive charge" is clearly spelled out in an official WOTC product.....if you disagree with it then dont use it. I was only answering the OP with what he/she asked for, and that was.....if it already existed in a book somewhere. Again "Song and Silence" page 52.

Please dont post an answer like that without supporting your position.

Cheers!

Sorry if I was unclear (I was under the impression that the quote would have been enough, and I dislike being tedious):
A bayonetted rifle could be set against a charge- the rifle has sufficient length to do so. One puts a bayonet on a rifle so it can be used as a de facto spear- and, thus, set against a charge like the book says. No argument.

A bayonetted crossbow, however, is not long enough to use as a de facto spear- the rifle's barrel gives it the length needed to do so. A crossbow is only as long as a rifle's stock (unless you're carrying a ballista). So, even if you ruled that a crossbow could carry a bayonet, you would be going to far in letting your player set it against a charge. Thus, a bayonet on a crossbow wouldn't be completely as useful as the quote in my post suggested.

I put the quote there for context. If you choose to disregard said context, I would be much obliged if you didn't scold me for saying or doing something I didn't say or do.
R2-DS
08-05-06, 11:57 PM I am sorry you feel that you were being scolded...it certainly wasnt my intention.
But all you did was quote me, and I am well aware of what I said.

I really wish that these "discussions" could be held face to face. It really would alleviate the misconceptions.

I read and re read this entire thread in an effort to gain some insight as to where you are comming from and I am afraid that I cant.

As you already know, I "do" think that it could work just as well on a crossbow as it could on a rifle.

Addmittedly, I am not a crossbow expert, but I my stance comes from the origional source of the Bayonet, and that is the entry in Song and Silence that says "That it was meant to be fixed to an instrument".

Now if anything it should be absolutely useless on an instrument. Why?. Its an instrument! Its not made to withstand the rigors of combat. Heck i'm sure most bard characters would be upset if you even scratched their lute or lyre.

At least a crossbow is made of solid wood and steel strapping. And if you ask me, there are many crossbows out there that border on rifle length. Any search Engine will cough up enough images to satisfy.
dvlsadvct
08-07-06, 11:56 AM Thank you all for arguing semantics over whether or not this is possible. As interesting as this debate has been it is also irrelevant. If you had read any of my post, right at the beginning I stated that my DM has allowed me to create such a weapon. After all, this is a Fantasy game, no?

Thank you for the Song and Silence tip, I will look into that. My only concern with said example is that the bayonet in question is attached to a non-weapon, and a non-ranged weapon to boot.

If anyone has any tips on the latter part of my post, (i.e. flanking and threatening) I would appreciate the input.

As a helpful thought, for those of you who own the Races of Stone handbook, there is a illustration of a Whispergnome in its description. In said illustration she is carrying a crossbow, and believe it or not, what appears to be a dagger (bayonet) affixed to the front. That is what I am trying to accomplish.
Callahan
08-07-06, 02:50 PM well it is both ranged and melee at the same time. There's no switch of stance or activation to use the Bayonet or the loaded cross bow.

So you still threaten people next to you and you still envoke AoO if you use your ranged attack while threatened by an enemy (unless you have the feats), but you could still deliver a Bayonet attack if you threaten an enemy in range.
Ocom
08-11-06, 11:21 AM 3.5 Bayonet requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
Can't remember anything else.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dvlsadvct 08-04-06, 12:39 PM	My DM has recently given me permission to commission a new weapon. What I wanted was a light crossbow with a dagger fixed to the front a la bayonet. I am also getting this at no EWP cost. (he gave someone else a whip dagger and thats why I brought it up in the first place) Now I am trying to run some stats on it. If anyone knows where one exists in books this would be a good time to inform me outright. Bayonet Exotic(see above for my instance) Two handed weapon* (see below) Prerequisite: Proficiency with designated crossbow Cost: 10gp Dmg: s(1d3), m(1d4) Critical: 19-20x2 Range increment: - Weight: 1lb Type: Piercing A bayonet must be affixed to a crossbow in order to function normally. Normally, operating a bayonet requires two hands. However, you can attack with a bayonet one handed at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can attack with a bayonet in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow that it is affixed to of the same size. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed attacking. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for firing a ranged weapon while equipped with a bayonet. While equipped with a bayonet you threaten all squares in which you can attack in melee. You may flank with a bayonet, however, you still may not gain any flanking bonuses while using a ranged weapon. This last part is to mean that if you attack with the bayonet you and the person(s) you are flanking with gain all the benefits of flanking. If you attack with the crossbow in melee you do not gain the benefit of flanking, but the person you are flanking with does.(because you still threaten, technically) Or would you say that in melee you gain flanking bonuses regardless of how you attack? Questions, comments, ideas?
Whisper_Swiftblade 08-04-06, 12:54 PM	I would just give it dagger stats and a requirementy for an exotic weapon feat to use
R2-DS 08-04-06, 01:17 PM	Bayonet: 3.0 Song and Silence Page 52 Small Martial Weapon Cost 5gp damage 1d4 Crit 19-20 Weight 2 lbs Type: Piercing Hardness 10 1hp Origionally intended as a bard item it is described as being affixed to the neck of an instrument. Although crossbow would certainly not be out of the question. Also states that a bayonet can be set against a charge. And there you have it.
Kursk 08-04-06, 03:34 PM	Bayonet Exotic(see above for my instance) Two handed weapon (see below) Prerequisite: Proficiency with designated crossbow A bayonet must be affixed to a crossbow in order to function normally. I have owned one that was made for an M1. It's a dagger. Crossbow prof will not help you. A bayonet is fixed to a rifle to give you a spear like weapon. Won't work with a crossbow.
R2-DS 08-04-06, 03:42 PM	If you are comparing a bayonet fixed to a rifle with that of one fixed to a crossbow....then I must say that it WILL work. If you could point out what prevents the bayonet from working on the end of a crossbow that might help your position. "Having owned one" doesnt seem to be very compelling.
Callahan 08-04-06, 03:58 PM	well i think the biggest issue is that the bows will get in the way of your attack. When you're trying to stab someone with the end of the bow it becomes easy for the opponent to grab or hit the bow ends to deflect your attack. It would be more effective to use the butt of the cross bow to attack, but you don't want anything pointy down there. an alternative is to put blades on the outside of the bows that you can attack with.
R2-DS 08-04-06, 04:02 PM	Take a look at some Bayonets throughout history. Some were in excess of 18 inches. I really dont think that it would interfere with using it on a crossbow.
Kursk 08-04-06, 06:13 PM	If you could point out what prevents the bayonet from working on the end of a crossbow that might help your position. "Having owned one" doesnt seem to be very compelling. It's too obvious to have to go into. :rofl:
Bob Loblaw 08-04-06, 06:48 PM	Take this from someone who has actually used a bayonet, in the military. (Note that when I say "used," I mean, "spent one day in training.") A bayonet is really just a dagger. It works just fine whether or not it's attached to another weapon. It would work just fine at the end of a crossbow. The bayonet would, technically, attach under the front end of the crossbow. It should not interfere with any part of the bow itself. I would probably require Exotic Weapon Proficiency to learn how to use it in this fashion. I think I would no longer consider it a light weapon, which would allow for things like Power Attack. I may allow Weapon Finesse to still work with it. Other than that, I don't see it being any real advantage.
Insane Pixie 08-04-06, 06:51 PM	d20 Modern tacks the Bayonet damage at d6.
fatal error 08-04-06, 06:58 PM	Having a bayonet shouldn't do anything for negating AoOs for firing a ranged weapon, not like you can block significantly better than with a normal crossbow.
Thane26425 08-04-06, 07:27 PM	The problem with bayonettes is that they throw off the balance of the weapon. A -1 penalty would not be out of line for firing with a fixed bayonet.
CryoSilver 08-04-06, 09:11 PM	Throwing off the balance is a just matter of spending 5 minutes learning to compensate; no penalty to hit. When I strapped a mag light to my paintball gun for a night game, it took me about a dozen shots to compensate for the weight, then I was spot on again (though in the future, I'll be using a lighter flasglight).
R2-DS 08-04-06, 09:24 PM	It's too obvious to have to go into. :rofl: You may choose to laugh at my comments, but perhaps you might consider that I too may have something to offer to the topic. And no I have never "owned" a bayonet. All the bayonets i've ever worked with were "ISSUED" to me :D . That being said, I reiterate my position that it "can" indeed be fixed to the end of a crossbow and be completely functional.
keropie 08-04-06, 09:56 PM	The only thing I'd worry about at all is how well a crossbow would stand up to being rammed into someone's body (i.e., when the bayonet goes in, and the bowarms smack up against the target). It seems like it might be bad for the bow. But regardless, I'd go with dagger damage, and would probably keep it at light. It certainly stretches my imagination that you could power attack effectively without damaging the bow (or the lute, if you went with the bard version ;))
filistimo 08-04-06, 11:45 PM	You may choose to laugh at my comments, but perhaps you might consider that I too may have something to offer to the topic. And no I have never "owned" a bayonet. All the bayonets i've ever worked with were "ISSUED" to me :D . That being said, I reiterate my position that it "can" indeed be fixed to the end of a crossbow and be completely functional. Not completely, you couldn't set it against a charge.
R2-DS 08-04-06, 11:55 PM	Not completely, you couldn't set it against a charge. Listen, the "set to receive charge" is clearly spelled out in an official WOTC product.....if you disagree with it then dont use it. I was only answering the OP with what he/she asked for, and that was.....if it already existed in a book somewhere. Again "Song and Silence" page 52. Please dont post an answer like that without supporting your position. Cheers!
narukagami 08-05-06, 12:45 AM	Wasn't there a crossbow with ax-like blades in the 3.0 Arms and Equipment guide? If so, just use that.
Callahan 08-05-06, 01:57 PM	it's a special magical item and deals 1d8/x2 slashing damage.
The_Normal_Anomaly 08-05-06, 07:43 PM	d20 Modern tacks the Bayonet damage at d6. I thought that was the butt of the rifle, because they insisted on saying that it becomes a double weapon. A 1d4 peircing at one end and 1d6 bludgeoning at the other. It looks to me that you could still threaten squares near you by taking that (this isn't a rule, but seriously) free action to stop calling it a crossbow and retitle it a club. If you are really using a crossbow, you probably don't have a great strength score, so the diffrence is almost minimal for you using a bayonet and a clubbing. Only the club tactic doesn't eat a feat. You could get a repeater for that extra feat you are thinking of or take rapid reload. The crossbow isn't really meant to be a main weapon in all but a few instances. You almost need PHBII to make it worth it. If you want a diffrent weapon, you could try something like this. Bladecrossbow A bladecrossbow is a magic crossbow that transforms into a magic short sword (and back again) upon command. Each bladecrossbow is a specific make of crossbow. The crossbow and short sword versions of the weapon possess the same enhancement bonus (+1 to +3). Turning the crossbow into a short sword—and vice versa— takes a move action. A bladecrossbow in crossbow form must be loaded with ammunition to fire (as any crossbow). A :thumbsup: to anyone who figures out what OGL item I converted to form the above.
gomibako_ninja 08-05-06, 08:06 PM	Bladecrossbow A bladecrossbow is a magic crossbow that transforms into a magic short sword (and back again) upon command. Each bladecrossbow is a specific make of crossbow. The crossbow and short sword versions of the weapon possess the same enhancement bonus (+1 to +3). Turning the crossbow into a short sword—and vice versa— takes a move action. A bladecrossbow in crossbow form must be loaded with ammunition to fire (as any crossbow). A :thumbsup: to anyone who figures out what OGL item I converted to form the above. Swordbow from Races of the Wild. (I prefer payment in :cookie:s) Back on topic, I would think that a bayonet wouldn't have a dagger's threat range, being a more awkward weapon to use than a dagger, thus making crits more difficult.
Kursk 08-05-06, 08:42 PM	Swordbow from Races of the Wild. (I prefer payment in :cookie:s) Back on topic, I would think that a bayonet wouldn't have a dagger's threat range, being a more awkward weapon to use than a dagger, thus making crits more difficult. With it stuck on the end of a crossbow it would be like jabbing with a dagger but much more clumsy. Probably -4 to hit. Piercing only. With the shape of the X-bow it would be easy to disarm.
filistimo 08-05-06, 11:37 PM	Listen, the "set to receive charge" is clearly spelled out in an official WOTC product.....if you disagree with it then dont use it. I was only answering the OP with what he/she asked for, and that was.....if it already existed in a book somewhere. Again "Song and Silence" page 52. Please dont post an answer like that without supporting your position. Cheers! Sorry if I was unclear (I was under the impression that the quote would have been enough, and I dislike being tedious): A bayonetted rifle could be set against a charge- the rifle has sufficient length to do so. One puts a bayonet on a rifle so it can be used as a de facto spear- and, thus, set against a charge like the book says. No argument. A bayonetted crossbow, however, is not long enough to use as a de facto spear- the rifle's barrel gives it the length needed to do so. A crossbow is only as long as a rifle's stock (unless you're carrying a ballista). So, even if you ruled that a crossbow could carry a bayonet, you would be going to far in letting your player set it against a charge. Thus, a bayonet on a crossbow wouldn't be completely as useful as the quote in my post suggested. I put the quote there for context. If you choose to disregard said context, I would be much obliged if you didn't scold me for saying or doing something I didn't say or do.
R2-DS 08-05-06, 11:57 PM	I am sorry you feel that you were being scolded...it certainly wasnt my intention. But all you did was quote me, and I am well aware of what I said. I really wish that these "discussions" could be held face to face. It really would alleviate the misconceptions. I read and re read this entire thread in an effort to gain some insight as to where you are comming from and I am afraid that I cant. As you already know, I "do" think that it could work just as well on a crossbow as it could on a rifle. Addmittedly, I am not a crossbow expert, but I my stance comes from the origional source of the Bayonet, and that is the entry in Song and Silence that says "That it was meant to be fixed to an instrument". Now if anything it should be absolutely useless on an instrument. Why?. Its an instrument! Its not made to withstand the rigors of combat. Heck i'm sure most bard characters would be upset if you even scratched their lute or lyre. At least a crossbow is made of solid wood and steel strapping. And if you ask me, there are many crossbows out there that border on rifle length. Any search Engine will cough up enough images to satisfy.
dvlsadvct 08-07-06, 11:56 AM	Thank you all for arguing semantics over whether or not this is possible. As interesting as this debate has been it is also irrelevant. If you had read any of my post, right at the beginning I stated that my DM has allowed me to create such a weapon. After all, this is a Fantasy game, no? Thank you for the Song and Silence tip, I will look into that. My only concern with said example is that the bayonet in question is attached to a non-weapon, and a non-ranged weapon to boot. If anyone has any tips on the latter part of my post, (i.e. flanking and threatening) I would appreciate the input. As a helpful thought, for those of you who own the Races of Stone handbook, there is a illustration of a Whispergnome in its description. In said illustration she is carrying a crossbow, and believe it or not, what appears to be a dagger (bayonet) affixed to the front. That is what I am trying to accomplish.
Callahan 08-07-06, 02:50 PM	well it is both ranged and melee at the same time. There's no switch of stance or activation to use the Bayonet or the loaded cross bow. So you still threaten people next to you and you still envoke AoO if you use your ranged attack while threatened by an enemy (unless you have the feats), but you could still deliver a Bayonet attack if you threaten an enemy in range.
Ocom 08-11-06, 11:21 AM	3.5 Bayonet requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Can't remember anything else.