Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zachiel 03-20-06, 03:58 AM	I have a PG in my party that likes multi-classing Unfortunately for me, he 's so lucky he always gets 3 or more 16+ characteristic rolls, which he usually sets to dexterity, intelligence, strenght and, if there are 4 of them the fourth goes to constitution. Now, it may suond odd, but I've never seen something dangerous like his PGs, and as a low experienced DM I'm going to ask you how to stop/slow_down him He obviously starts from the classic rogue/wizard invisible thief elf, adding then a bit of ranger (we play 3.0) to have the two weapon malus wear off, some warrior to increase his combat skills and take the secondary arm parry, and then goes on as a wizard. Or, as an alternative, he gets barbarian instead of ranger and starts swashing around his big blade I am conscious such a pg is good only at level 6-7, and then becomes pretty incapable of hitting anything (he plans to keep growing as a wiz) but it still hurts to have all my PNGs blown away from him. I tried grappling, ranged attacks, dragons, but it seems that only narrow spaces can stop him. And the rest of the group is nearly claustrophobic and complains a lot when narrow spaces are ahead Keep in mind that the player has much more inventive than the rest of the party puppetmasters... once (at level 2) he and his horse managed to kill 4 orcs and survive 2 hours to two trolls trying to catch him. some good idea apart some massive guy a bunch of levels bigger than him?
Derren S. 03-20-06, 04:14 AM	Your problem isn't the multiclassing as heavy multiclassing makes the character weaker than normal but it seems to me that you have a problem with the player using tactics.
jaelis 03-20-06, 04:31 AM	You might also consider using point buy, if this player's good ability roll consistently seem to make him outshine others in your group.
Seeker of Undeath 03-20-06, 04:45 AM	I have a PG in my party that likes multi-classing Unfortunately for me, he 's so lucky he always gets 3 or more 16+ characteristic rolls, which he usually sets to dexterity, intelligence, strenght and, if there are 4 of them the fourth goes to constitution.That's slightly odd, but I have more than one player who constantly rolls well. They don't constantly get scores that great, but they seldom ever have a problem.Now, it may suond odd, but I've never seen something dangerous like his PGs, and as a low experienced DM I'm going to ask you how to stop/slow_down himHey, we all start somewhere, and it's good to know that you're building your experience as a DM. Stick with it. That's the toughest part.He obviously starts from the classic rogue/wizard invisible thief elf, adding then a bit of ranger (we play 3.0) to have the two weapon malus wear off,I don't know what's obvious, but... Yeah he likes the virtual Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity no doubt. That was the problem with 3.0 ranger. It was arguably the best 1-level dip class at the time. some warrior to increase his combat skills and take the secondary arm parry,I assume you mean Fighter, but what is this "secondary arm parry"? I'm going to guess it's in a splatbook I don't have. Actually I didn't really start amassing many splatbooks until 3.5 anyway.and then goes on as a wizard. Or, as an alternative, he gets barbarian instead of ranger and starts swashing around his big bladeYour player really doesn't seem to know what he wants to build, and his characters (if they're all exactly like that) sound rather pathetic mechanically. I imagine he likes to play the jack-of-most-trades role. He should just use a bard and be happy with it, but I immediately see a few things. 1) You cannot cast a spell or do anything that requires concentration while you are using Rage. 2) So far we have at the least Rogue1/Fighter1/Ranger or Barbarian1/WizardX. The guy has already burned three caster levels and has no theme or plan. Already I expect him to be easy to kill off.I am conscious such a pg is good only at level 6-7, and then becomes pretty incapable of hitting anything (he plans to keep growing as a wiz) but it still hurts to have all my PNGs blown away from him.WTF is a "PG" or a "PNG"? Actually that's a rhetorical question. I think I know what you mean, but I'd never seen/heard that abbreviation. Frankly I can't imagine that character is any more powerful than anything else at any level.I tried grappling, ranged attacks, dragons, but it seems that only narrow spaces can stop him.For the love of all the gods, celestials, fiends, vestiges, saints, fey and other powers, WHY? How can this thing be any good at grappling? What did you have try to grapple him? Have you ever tried using a Centaur to Bullrush or Overrun his butt? What on earth happened to the dragon? I can't conceive of how this joker killed the dragon. Why didn't your ranged attacks kill this guy? Did the Death Attack simply not work well enough??? I'm baffled... Try running me through just one of these encounters step-by-step.And the rest of the group is nearly claustrophobic and complains a lot when narrow spaces are aheadThat's good. It means you should use them more often. Keep in mind that the player has much more inventive than the rest of the party puppetmasters...I imagine so at this point.once (at level 2) he and his horse managed to kill 4 orcs and survive 2 hours to two trolls trying to catch him.One more time I'll ask "how?"some good idea apart some massive guy a bunch of levels bigger than him?One necromancer. That's all it takes. That's all it ever takes. As I recall school specialization and Spell Focus actually meant something back in 3.0. Put the hurt on.
Free1983 03-20-06, 04:49 AM	If you multiclass, (definitly more than two classes) you suffer major XP-penalties. Do you apply these? I for one, don't want to incur a XP-penalty because it slows you down in comparison with the other group members. I would confront him with a npc with a nice, high and dry, AC so it becomes a little harder to kill it right away. You could also make your dungeon magic-proof by using a dispel-magic effect in your entire dungeon (or in some parts). You make the rules. I would also suggest you take a good look at his dice. Sure it isn't a dice with only 16's on it ;) cheers
Seeker of Undeath 03-20-06, 05:01 AM	If you multiclass, (definitly more than two classes) you suffer major XP-penalties.Not necessarily.Do you apply these? I for one, don't want to incur a XP-penalty because it slows you down in comparison with the other group members.The above Rogue1/Fighter1/Ranger1/WizardX will never have an XP penalty its entire career.I would confront him with a npc with a nice, high and dry, AC so it becomes a little harder to kill it right away. You could also make your dungeon magic-proof by using a dispel-magic effect in your entire dungeon (or in some parts). You make the rules.Antimagic works, but it feels cheesy to use. I know first-hand.I would also suggest you take a good look at his dice. Sure it isn't a dice with only 16's on it ;)Always a good idea, though I wanted to stay away from that sad possibility. Besides, I bet the PC will have trouble with damage reduction and spell resistance right away.
Free1983 03-20-06, 05:25 AM	the only way I know to prevent XP-penalties, is by taking the favorite class of your race, so you can take another class at no penalty. Obviously I don't think of PrC right now, because I think (but I'm not sure) these don't imply XP-penalties. What other ways do you see? I'm really curious.
Zherog 03-20-06, 08:22 AM	The fighter 1/rogue 1/ranger 1/Wizard X is OK for any race as long as X = 1 or 2. ;) If X is going to be higher than that, this (extremely weak) character build has no XP penalties if the character is an elf, human, or half-elf.
Zachiel 03-20-06, 10:49 AM	he is an elf. I'm sorry for having used PG and PNG instead of PC and NPC, but I use the Italian acronyms so much that I didn't realize they were the Italian ones until Seeker of Undeath made me notice it. The same goes for all the classes and skills I don't name correctly. I'm glad to tell ya all how a PC can fool a pair of trolls with a horse, some arrows, a bow, lantern oil and strips of dress. 1) notice the trolls. Hope they don't notice you. It's quite easy if they're battling someone else. 2) take all the time you need to dismount, wrap your arrows with oily tissue, and set a little fire right behind the nearest hill. There's no need to run, since the attacked guy seems to be able to resist the attack himself (in effect, he should have beaten the trolls while the PCs were battling the less dangerous orcs) 3) shoot some firy arrows towards the trolls. Don't makes damage at all but they're stupid enough to start running towards you. 4) shoot an arrow to the orcs. When they get close run away with the horse. 5) stop the horse and fire again 6) repeat 4) and 5) until all orcs are dead, and the trolls still play the merry-go-round I tried to deadshot the horse, but there was no long ranged weapon nearby and I'm not that kind of master that change the encounter's conditions during combat the drake... he, the drake was a little bit tiny, I must admit... :P
Dalthbar 03-20-06, 11:01 AM	The first thing to remember is that NPCs and monsters aren't the same as you encounter in video games. Let's look into the mind of a troll for a minute. Fact 1: They are stupid Fact 2: They're virtually impossible to destroy (short of fire, acid, etc.) - with this mindset, trolls are wreckless and care little about basic weapon damage Fact 3: Based on #2, trolls are absolutely terrified of fire - it is the only real weakness If even a stupid troll is being attacked with fire, they're going to get cover or flee. "He who fights and runs away..." We're very stuck with the mindset that monsters will barrell at us with a single-minded focus to destroy us - even when it's very clear that they will die. Intelligent monsters (even stupid intelligent monsters) won't behave like this. Living is almost always more important than dying. So a Troll has a movement of 30. Horses have a movement of what, 50? So a horse will be able to outrun a troll on the straight and narrow. I can promise you, however, that a troll has a higher con than a horse and thus can run for a good time longer than a horse. Plus, trolls have the track feat and scent special ability. My trolls would have "fled" the area initially, regened the non-fire damage and tracked down this weak human at night, since trolls have dark vision and low light vision. This is all well-and-good and hindsight is always 20/20. What I'm saying is, try to use your NPCs, monsters and environment to as much of your advantage as possible. Being a DM is one of the hardest jobs because you're expected to be able to handle multiple (and usually divergent) mindsets at a given time and expected to do so perfectly. Luckily, these skills come with time, but try to leverage your NPC's strengths and know when they'll fight, flee or regroup for an attack later. Hope that offers some insight and gives you a different perspective to view these sorts of situations.
Seeker of Undeath 03-20-06, 11:14 AM	Ahh good old guerilla tactics. Hit and run is always good. Honestly there is a ranged weapon I don't think you considered: the improvised kind! Frankly I'd have had a Troll chuck an Orc at the horse. At the very least I'd have picked something to throw. Then again I'm the guy that had an Ettin ambush a party and killed off a spellcaster with the strangest area of effect attacks ever seen by that party: a cow. Well they were hiding out on a farm... Of course once things got close and nasty they found out the Ettin was a Frenzied Berserker. I loved the reaction I got to "Eat dirt, everyone in the vicinity!!" It was a good day. BTW nothing keeps them ducking for cover like a sniper hidden in the trees some ways off and a spellcaster hidden away waiting to counterspell. Of course that's what happens when you tick off the wrong Master Vampire. They thought they were safe during the day... :evillaugh The werewolves and wargs were just icing on the cake.
Zachiel 03-22-06, 02:51 AM	bwahahahahahahahahahahaha -and- mwahahahahahahahahahahaha Ok you got the point, I was a so un-experienced DM those days... Now drow elves use darkness spells on cobbles to throw them in sunny pits to avoid save throws :D However, the fact that, at level 6 (I know that such a PC is going to be useless let's say... at level 7) is damn good, even if the multiclass system is supposed to have him ridicoulosly weak Let's examine one-by-one all his classes The ranger level in 3.0 is a "gain two feats" fighter level, while in light armor, so he is much more like an human fighter2 rogue1 wizard3, but being an elf he gains a dexterity bonus, losing some contitution, I admit The rogue level gave him a bunch of ability points that were needed by the group at that time, and even if it didn't raise the base hit throw it added some sort of menace in the form of 1d6 of additional damage. The plyer however was able to start most non-ambush combats so that he had that 1d6 damage bonus applied The wizard levels. Why the hell should I take wizard levels when I'm quite a good swordman? That lowers my attack bonus! 1) he had a toad familiar - bye bye Constitution malus. I soon discovered how 6 life points can make the difference 2) offensive spells. Melf's Acid Arrow is annoying, especially when we're talking about "mobsters" 3) invisibility. An invisible thief backstabbing you. The tings get worse when you do think to all that low level annoying spells that don't depend on the caster's level. Like flooding the floor with oily substances, just to make an example. Annoying but not that much, I admit. It would have been quite an easy guy to manage if he wasn't in a party The, he decided that he was bored of such PCs, and tried to have a fliyng half-clestial fighter... Can you imagine my reaction? Abuot constitution checks and 50 feet movement... the constitution check applies only when the subject has been running for a bunch of consecutive rounds. The horse got out of range (orcs had javelins, wich only get the thing worse, becouse one of them was stupid enough to try recuperating one) and rested one round, again and again. Trolls didn't run away because that amount of fire wasn't that scary. And because of me having that poor experience Now, I'm going to have my ghost half-black-dragon fire-elementalist troll eat 'em... any suggestions? :D:D:D
johniemi 03-22-06, 08:09 AM	3) invisibility. An invisible thief backstabbing you. Ummm... If he is Ranger1/Rogue1/Wizard4, he can cast only Invisibility (2nd level spell), and not Invisibility, Greater (4th level spell). The 2nd level spell, Invisibility, does not allow you to attack while invisible. He would need to have 7 levels of Wizard, which is needed to cast a 4th level spell like Invisibility, Greater. And even if he could cast Gr.Invis., people do get automatic listen checks when invisible thieves sneak close to them... Of course, if he has move silently, it is hard to hear him, but still there are ways to hear/see him even though he is invisible. -John
Zachiel 03-22-06, 09:32 AM	great invisibility allows him to remain invisiblen after attacking. most of the times it's not necessary
johniemi 03-22-06, 02:36 PM	great invisibility allows him to remain invisiblen after attacking. most of the times it's not necessary Actually I disagree because Invisibility says: (SRD) "The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature." Whereas Greater Invis. says: "This spell functions like invisibility, except that it doesn’t end if the subject attacks." I know I'm not the right person to argue about English semantics because I'm not a native English speaker but I understand the above so that Invisibility ends at the instant when the character starts to attack, not when he has finished his attack, which takes 3 seconds for one attack (standard action) and 6 second for full attack (full-round action)... I know it's somewhat cheesy and not "realistic" but I don't believe a 2nd level spell should allow you to attack while invisible, not even once. Maybe someone can come up with an official ruling? -John
Andi1 03-22-06, 03:04 PM	well how the hell did he get magic powers in the middle of a game? wizards have a long time on ... well wizarduniversitys... before they got even their cantrips! And the ranger. Who taught him how to handle animals? I never let anyone multiclass before he can explain how!
Nephlite 03-22-06, 03:56 PM	Actually I disagree because Invisibility says: (SRD) "The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature." Whereas Greater Invis. says: "This spell functions like invisibility, except that it doesn’t end if the subject attacks." I know I'm not the right person to argue about English semantics because I'm not a native English speaker but I understand the above so that Invisibility ends at the instant when the character starts to attack, not when he has finished his attack, which takes 3 seconds for one attack (standard action) and 6 second for full attack (full-round action)... I know it's somewhat cheesy and not "realistic" but I don't believe a 2nd level spell should allow you to attack while invisible, not even once. Maybe someone can come up with an official ruling? -John It ends when you attack not during the attack. You have to attack before it ends. You can't full attack: as soon as one arrow/sword rolls to hit, it ends. Enemy was still denied dex to AC? Yes, he was. Only good for one attack. Since without Greater, you are visible. That allows Rogue to Sneak Attack dealing +Xd6 once. You don't believe the rules? Evem in 3.0 Invisibility spell allowed one attack. I've never heard your interpretation. Even in all the Game Articles by the game designers like Rules of the Game, etc etc. Invisibility ends after you attack not before. Invisibility Illusion (Glamer) Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Trickery 2 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or touch Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or Yes (harmless, object) The creature or object touched becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so. Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible. Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area. Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell. Arcane Material Component: An eyelash encased in a bit of gum arabic. You have to attack first to be made visible. Not before you attack. After. Ithas to do with cause and effect. Cause: attack roll on enemy. Whether you hit or miss, you still invisible. Effect: since you attacked, you are now visible. It would say before you attack if it meant prior to the attack. And why does a second level spell allowing invisibiility seem so strong? Is itthe ability to deliver Sneak attacks? You could have done that as soon as 1st level. 1st level Grease and its 3rd level companion Sleet Storm. Both deny dex to those who have less than 5 ranks of balance.
supernerd8916 03-22-06, 04:37 PM	Ahh good old guerilla tactics. Hit and run is always good. Honestly there is a ranged weapon I don't think you considered: the improvised kind! Frankly I'd have had a Troll chuck an Orc at the horse. At the very least I'd have picked something to throw. Then again I'm the guy that had an Ettin ambush a party and killed off a spellcaster with the strangest area of effect attacks ever seen by that party: a cow. Well they were hiding out on a farm... Of course once things got close and nasty they found out the Ettin was a Frenzied Berserker. I loved the reaction I got to "Eat dirt, everyone in the vicinity!!" It was a good day. BTW nothing keeps them ducking for cover like a sniper hidden in the trees some ways off and a spellcaster hidden away waiting to counterspell. Of course that's what happens when you tick off the wrong Master Vampire. They thought they were safe during the day... The werewolves and wargs were just icing on the cake. and i thought i was the king of improvisation with my 50 pounds of flour :D (long story) Now, I'm going to have my ghost half-black-dragon fire-elementalist troll eat 'em... any suggestions? too complicated. dont sink to his level. go straight rogue, the smaller the better. improved initiative, ring of greater invisibility ("borrowed" of course) and TWF feats. with TWF and ring of greater invisibility, you can sneak attack him to the cows come home :cool: improved initiative means in all likelihood he goes first.
camble 03-23-06, 01:50 AM	Sink to his level :rolleyes: The game is about fun would it be a problem if he was doing well with a single class like rogue. I have seen players make the most of there classes and pull off some amazing feats if it adds to the game play it shouldn't really be a issue (they are supposed to be larger then life characters after all :D ) but if it is detracting from the fun of the game for other players then take the player to the side and talk to him about it.
Zachiel 03-24-06, 02:43 AM	I was joking abuot the undead troll... :D However, I had been reading the DM guide paragraph that says "talk with him". Unfortunately, he had been reading that too. His answer was "No, I'm not going to make your life easy" Abuot level gaining. Handle animals? His ranger does not handle animals! Wizard? The manual DOES tell that elves has magig in their own blood. I was in the corner and he was hammering me with both hands. Then I said "ok I'm the Dungeon Master and if you don't like that you may go home". His answer: "...We actually ARE in my home..." Then I finally made him sign a treaty where he declared his next PC would have a single class. His 6th level illusionist was the deadliest 6th level PC I ever saw. Until his thieveries made the level 13 local paladin start looking for him. I was sorry I had to use such a big cannon to fire him, but that was the linear consequence of his actions. :weep:
Mo 03-24-06, 03:52 AM	HAH my group made fun of me kuz i have a bbn/rngr/rog/ftr/dervish in our current campaign it's a halfling with kukris, it mauls pretty good.
Seeker of Undeath 03-24-06, 10:57 AM	I was joking abuot the undead troll... :D However, I had been reading the DM guide paragraph that says "talk with him". Unfortunately, he had been reading that too. His answer was "No, I'm not going to make your life easy"To which I reply, "Ok. Your life just became hell."Abuot level gaining. Handle animals? His ranger does not handle animals! Wizard? The manual DOES tell that elves has magig in their own blood. I was in the corner and he was hammering me with both hands. Then I said "ok I'm the Dungeon Master and if you don't like that you may go home". His answer: "...We actually ARE in my home..."What are you talking about? What about level gaining? What about handling animal? What about elves' trend toward the arcane? I'm missing the point of this thought fragment.Then I finally made him sign a treaty where he declared his next PC would have a single class. His 6th level illusionist was the deadliest 6th level PC I ever saw. Until his thieveries made the level 13 local paladin start looking for him. I was sorry I had to use such a big cannon to fire him, but that was the linear consequence of his actions. :weep:Doesn't sound like much of anything special to me. That's standard practice. If he drew attention to himself, that's his problem. Did he not expect to need to avoid the law?
OravennasBrother 03-24-06, 04:57 PM	Has this guys character EVER killed a human being? If yes then do the following; The town guard shows up with a big guy and hands a paper to the character. The big guy is the Brother of one of the people this clown killed. He has obtained a LEGAL vendetta (very common means of dispute resolution in many pre-industrial societies) and is now serving the papers. the town guard is along to insure everything is legal. The big guy is a Single Class Human Fighter with the starting attributes of 17 Strength, 16 Constitution, 14 Dexterity, 13 Intelligence, 12 (or 14) Wisdom, and any charisma you like. He is the same level as the player (preferably between 4 and 7th) and has gear appropriate for an NPC of his level - heavilly invested in Armor and a Great Sword. His HP should be elite (max 1st level and as uch above average as the problem PC's HP are after that. NOt the same rolls, but if the PC got a 4 one level as a wizard, then the NPC got a 10 that level) Feats naturally include POwer Attack, Weapon Focus Great Sword and Weapon Specialization Greatsword, Dodge and Expertise. The guards explain that the fight must be done according to the law, or the insitgator (the PC if he starts anything) will be executed. Then lead them to a small (20' diamter) ring, tey start at opposite edges of the ring. Next have teh attending senior guard declare a beginning round which enables BOTH sides to start with a saved half actions - after all, the intent of the method is to insure no one is "surprised" or "Flat-footed" so the fight is "Fair" Don't forget the enemy will have his Dodge dedicaeed to the OC every round, and can supplement that with some Expertise, or he can use Power Attack at a 2 to 1 return (3.5 rules). You know the PC's AC beforehand so you can determine the optimum POwer attack for maximum average damage per strike, and as the NPC is a smart veteran fighter he should be able to judge how hard to swing for maximum effect (to avoid cries of unfair or rule-mongering etc.) The fight should end up very uneven, but just to be sure, watch all the PC's die rolls to insure he doesn't get extra "lucky" ctiticals. Yeah I know this sounds like Railroading, but if you want to make a point, you need to make a point.
supernerd8916 03-26-06, 12:31 PM	by the last guys post, it might be worth it to get supreme power attack (4 to 1) odnt know where its at though...
johniemi 03-26-06, 01:02 PM	by the last guys post, it might be worth it to get supreme power attack (4 to 1) odnt know where its at though... Frenzied Berserker PrC (Complete Warrior). Only downside could be considered the otherwise great Frenzy ability but it takes a will save (DC20) to end it at your own will and if you run out of opponents and your Frenzy continues, you start to whack the closest target you see, whether it's your party members, the king, or your granma :D
supernerd8916 03-26-06, 09:32 PM	Frenzied Berserker PrC (Complete Warrior). Only downside could be considered the otherwise great Frenzy ability but it takes a will save (DC20) to end it at your own will and if you run out of opponents and your Frenzy continues, you start to whack the closest target you see, whether it's your party members, the king, or your granma two words: Chaotic Evil :D no more worries probably already killed his dear old grammy
Silimaure 03-26-06, 09:46 PM	My advice here is that next time you have stats rolled up, if you don't want to use Point Buy (Which I still check afterwords, since they may have given themselves extra points), then watch his rolls. I Have the feeling he said to himself, "Hmm, this 12 and this 11 look like 16's to me".