Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlackFiend 12-01-04, 12:21 PM	Our group had our first run in with a Beholder. (My personal first as a player in over 25 years of gaming. Most DMs hate running beholders because they can't do them justice tactically, but I digress). Here is the situation: Monk moves in an smacks the tar out of the Beholder with an unarmed strike. I am currently flanked by the BBEG Beholder's companion...an Ogre sized creature. I couldn't set up a better tactical situation to use...gasp...a tactical feat! So... Using Elusive Target, I target Beholder with my Dodge feat and end my turn. When its the Beholders turn, the DM (I mean the Beholder) gleefully blasts away POINT BLANK using the disintegrate ray! OUCH!!! Me: OK...Elusive target kicks in and the attack bypasses me and hits the "Ogre". DM: No. Me: Yes...[Refers DM to Elusive Target] DM: Only if the attack was a melee attack. He gets no flanking bonus using the ray attack. Me: It doesn't say its a melee attack! Besides that, it has a bite attack, so it gives flanking for the Ogre...thus...the Ogre is flanking me. DM: No. Me: Then I should get an AoO for him using a ranged attack on me...[grabs dice to commence pummelling the abberation using combat reflexes.] DM: Umm...No. Me: Why not? DM: Because well... I tuned him out unfortunately after that because I hate getting screwed over using feats and abilities. You set up a situation, you face all the risks, the odds, and then the DM arbitrates against you and you sit screwed harder than a prison inmate. Fortunately, my monk survived the assault of nine (9) freaking ray attacks, but still...I'd love to see if I was wrong. I am distinctly open to this and looking to hear the rationale of others.
tarkin 12-01-04, 12:48 PM	Your DM is right. Flanking is NOT a "condition" that describes you perse, it is a special type of melee attacks. You can not be flanking someone when you are using a ranged attack, because flanking requires you to make a melee attack against someone that is threated from the other side. As Elusive Target says Flanking, it only works with melee weapons. That said, I am pretty sure the Beholder is only allowed to use 3 rays on any individual target - the other 6 must go to different targets.
No-man 12-01-04, 12:55 PM	Added to that there's no guarantee the ray would hit the Ogre anyway, regardless of whether your Feat is applicable or not. You did say that the Beholder and Ogre worked together. I think the Beholder would fire the ray, and make sure his ally wasn't hit. They've practiced it, you know. :P <--- Ogre sticking out tongue
BlackFiend 12-01-04, 01:50 PM	I have to disagree with the idea that he is not flanking. Why? Because when the Ogre struck me, he received a bonus for flanking. (I asked the DM about it.) If the Ogre gets a flanking bonus because the Beholder has a natural attack and threatens, then the Ogre is flanking. The Ogre should not get a flanking bonus if the Beholder is not flanking. I can [posibly] accept that flanking is a melee only attack. I can keep that in mind. So when using elusive target, use the skill for the one who strikes, not the one who uses a ray or whatever. OK. However, I should have received AoO then...correct? Before the first ray attack took place...correct? Also...my DM blasted me with all 9 rays. That sucked big time. I survived it, but jeesh...it made my stomach twist...all of those touch attack spells and saves. Nice to know he can only use three per opponent.
No-man 12-01-04, 02:36 PM	You did get the short end of the stick with the 9 rays directed solely at your character. But as far as your AOO, I'd have to say your DM was right, for several reasons. First, the Beholder's rays are innate abilities - it's not casting. Second, the eyestalks on top of the head are out of your reach. Third, keep in mind that it's the first Beholder you ever encountered, so the MM may state that they're not subject to AOO for ray attacks. I've been gaming about as long as you have, and I still get frustrated when my abilities don't work "correctly" against a foe for some reason. It's part of the game, and maybe that ability not working the way you'd planned was your character's inexperience with this legendary monster. Just a couple thoughts....
tarkin 12-01-04, 04:10 PM	Blackfiend, the following official data may change your mind. According to the Sage article about whips, it is quite possible for a target to be fighting two people yet only ONE of them is considered flanking. In 3.5, a whip is a melee weapon that does not threaten. As such if you have a whip and attacking an Centaur with the help of a friendly fighter using a long sword on the other side of the Centaur then: 1) You are using a melee weapon. 2) Your friend is threatening the Centaur with a Long Sword. 3) So your attacks are considered flanking. HOWEVER A) While your Friend is using a melee weapon B) You are not threatening the Centaur as the whip does not threaten and can not take any AoO's. C) So your friendly fighter's attacks are not considered flanking This was explained in a Sage article, so it is official. Therefore, if the whip guy can be flanking while his friend is not, the Ogre can be flanking while the Beholder is not.