Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Afarian 01-12-05, 06:29 PM	Sorry for all these stupid combat questions but I've having troubles finding answers in the PHB. I'm DM'ing and My PC's (3 lvl 2's) are going to be fighting some Krenshar so I need to know how their SCARE effect works. I know it is the same as Cause fear or Scare for 1d4 rounds or shaken for 1 round. But what does that do? Does that mean they can't perform any actions if Scared and only one action or move if Shaken?
masterofmayhem 01-12-05, 08:11 PM	Well, if they fail the save, they become frightened. If they succeed, then they are only shaken. from the 3.5 SRD: Shaken: A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked. Frightened: A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape. Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear. Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened. So if they fail any of their saves, then they are frightened. I'm not positive, but I think that fear conditions stack. So if there are 3 krenshar, and they make all three saves, they are still panicked. I'm not sure about that, though. And I have no idea what that other thing means. Scare (Ex or Su): As a standard action, a krenshar can pull the skin back from its head, revealing the musculature and bony structures of its skull. This alone is usually sufficient to scare away foes (treat as a Bluff check with a +3 bonus). Combining this scare ability with a loud screech produces an unsettling effect that works like a scare spell from a 3rd-level caster (Will DC 13 partial). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same krenshar’s scare ability for 24 hours. The shriek does not affect other krenshars. This is a supernatural, sonic mind-affecting fear effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. So maybe you do a bluff check to scare them? I have no idea. I've never seen any ruling that allows one to use bluff to scare someone.
Afarian 01-12-05, 10:34 PM	That is strange I'm not sure how the +3 modifier is applied either. I just made them make them make a dc 13 check. Unless I'm mistaken Each Krenshar can only have one target!
Lord Schpungus 01-13-05, 12:25 PM	So maybe you do a bluff check to scare them? I have no idea. I've never seen any ruling that allows one to use bluff to scare someone. The Krenshar's Ex Scare ability is simply a bluff check. d20 +3 (the Krenshar's Bluff Mod). If it also screeches, (using its Su Scare ability), Will save DC 13 as the spell Scare.
kjenks 01-13-05, 01:09 PM	Fear effects do stack. See the SRD for details. Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
KangTheCallipygian 01-13-05, 03:59 PM	I'm not positive, but I think that fear conditions stack. So if there are 3 krenshar, and they make all three saves, they are still panicked. I'm not sure about that, though.Be sure. Because you are absolutely right; fear effects are indeed cumulative. It's in the SRD right after the bit you quoted, but I see kjenks has already posted the relevant text, so I'll move on. Here's my own 2cp on the fearsome krenshar: The question of how the Bluff check version of the Krenshar's Scare ability works is a good one, and remains unanswered. My players faced a krenshar (well, fortunately it was actually their PC's who faced it) a couple of levels back, and I wasn't sure how to work that Bluff check either... What happens if the krenshar wins the opposed check - the target is shaken (ie. increases their fear level by one category)? Frightened (2 categories)? Depends on by how much the krenshar's roll beats a given PC's? It doesn't say, though one could assume it just makes them shaken to be on the safe side. (Then again, it does say this is usually enough to scare enemies away...) Nor does it say whether the Bluff check version can affect more than one target. Clearly it's just one target for the shriek, as the spell, but the Bluff check option seems to leave a bunch of unanswered questions. The Bluff thing seems very weird anyhow. I mean, they're not feinting or sending secret messages, so what untrue thing, exactly, is the krenshar trying to convince the PC's of anyhow? IMO an Intimidate check (the "demoralize opponents" option, possibly dropping the requirement to threaten the target in melee and including the ability to affect multiple nearby targets who can see it) would make a lot more sense, however that's not the way they wrote the krenshar up... I ruled it's actually an intimidate check, rather than Bluff, modified as I described above, which makes its targets shaken, or frightened if it beats their rolls by 5 or more. YMMV; I don't pretend to be any sort of game balance expert, and it's likely I made the krenshar more powerful by doing this (not that the PC's didn't kill it faster than I'd hoped anyhow or anything. I wish the DMG gave more guidelines on how to balance encounters for parties of more than 4 PC's; our group has 6 and I'm finding it difficult to predict how well they'll fare other than, "better than I thought they'd do," but I digress) - the "frightened if it beats their roll by 5 or more" part might well be pushing things a little, and in retrospect I maybe should have ruled it could only make them shaken, but it still seemed (to me) to make more sense than using Bluff in some undefined and unprecedented way as the krenshar's write-up seems to indicate. I too would be interested in learning how it's actually intended to work. Kang
masterofmayhem 01-13-05, 09:48 PM	Sounds good to me; that's what pretty much what I was thinking of. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have three krenshar, that guarantees that everyone is panicked, right? So 3 krenshar could beat a group of level 10 PCs? I must be missing something here . . .
Afarian 01-13-05, 10:33 PM	Be sure. Because you are absolutely right; fear effects are indeed cumulative. It's in the SRD right after the bit you quoted, but I see kjenks has already posted the relevant text, so I'll move on. Here's my own 2cp on the fearsome krenshar: The question of how the Bluff check version of the Krenshar's Scare ability works is a good one, and remains unanswered. My players faced a krenshar (well, fortunately it was actually their PC's who faced it) a couple of levels back, and I wasn't sure how to work that Bluff check either... What happens if the krenshar wins the opposed check - the target is shaken (ie. increases their fear level by one category)? Frightened (2 categories)? Depends on by how much the krenshar's roll beats a given PC's? It doesn't say, though one could assume it just makes them shaken to be on the safe side. (Then again, it does say this is usually enough to scare enemies away...) Nor does it say whether the Bluff check version can affect more than one target. Clearly it's just one target for the shriek, as the spell, but the Bluff check option seems to leave a bunch of unanswered questions. The Bluff thing seems very weird anyhow. I mean, they're not feinting or sending secret messages, so what untrue thing, exactly, is the krenshar trying to convince the PC's of anyhow? IMO an Intimidate check (the "demoralize opponents" option, possibly dropping the requirement to threaten the target in melee and including the ability to affect multiple nearby targets who can see it) would make a lot more sense, however that's not the way they wrote the krenshar up... Kang I agree with you on the Intimidate check. So let's assume that we use that as Intimidate +3. The part that's still confusing me is that this seems like a 2 part attack. First, the Intimidate check part then the screech part. So do I roll intimidate and if the Krenshar wins they get to roll a DC Will Save that's Cha-based? What if they have a wisdom bonus do they get that AND cha modifier bonus? What if they lose out big time on the Intimidate check but get their save DC 13 against the Screech part? ...or vice versa?
Afarian 01-13-05, 10:39 PM	Sounds good to me; that's what pretty much what I was thinking of. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have three krenshar, that guarantees that everyone is panicked, right? So 3 krenshar could beat a group of level 10 PCs? I must be missing something here . . . I don't think it would beat the whole group. Hopefully everyone has a decent will save and then they would just suffer -2 penalties for being shaken. That and 3 Krenshar could only either Frighten 3 people a turn OR guaranteed Panick on one, hopefully you have at least one person left to help them recover but that leads to Another question that came up; Can you drink a Remove FEAR potion or Cast Remove Fear on yourself IF your Feared, Shaken or even Panicked? I have a party of 3 lvl 2's that didn't have any trouble hitting them. Of course since I didn't really know how the Fear effect worked I just used it against the Wizards summoned monster 1.