Being unaware of an attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Being unaware of an attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gryllmyre
06-19-06, 01:00 PM I can't remember where I read it, but I recall that being unaware of an attack denies you Dex towards that attack. This is something rogues thrive on, of course. So, I have a question.

I already know that you are flatfooted until you take your first turn in combat. No problems there.

The problem comes when you are in combat and are no longer flatfooted, but you are unaware of a rogue (either because they are far away and you just don't know they are there, they are invisible, or hidden).

When the rogue finally attacks (either with multiple arrow shots from 30 feet, or steps 5' out of the shadows and takes full swings, or is already there and invisible - not greater - and takes full swings), you are naturally aware of the rogue after the first strike. So do you gain Dex for the remainder of the attacks, or are you still denied Dex against the rogue until all his attacks are finished?
Ryu Katsuragi
06-19-06, 01:08 PM If you perform a full attack, and your first attack deals sneak attack damage, then every other attack in that full attack will do sneak attack damage.

Invisible opponents always deny you your Dex to AC, and you have to know where the Rogue is/able to see him to be 'aware' of him. So, if they made a Hide check, and you fail your spot... You're unaware of him. An attack during that time will be a sneak attack.
tarkin
06-19-06, 01:11 PM Being far away is relevant only indirectly. The only way to negate the dex is to be either invisible or hidden. Being far away gives penalties to Spot checks, which make hiding easier.

If you check invisibility in the SRD it says:

An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any).

A similar rule exists for Hide regarding ignoring their Dex, but it is harder to find. Under Combat (AC section) it says:

Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC.

This effectively means you lose your Dex when being attacked by a hidden creature. You also lose your Dex if you are tied up, paralyzed, etc. etc.

---------

Note, Disputed point

An earlier poster said if your first attack is a sneak attack all subsequent attacks are sneak attacks.

This is blatantly false.

If I am in the following position (r = me, M or m = monsters, a = ally)

aMrm

Then if I take my first attack against M, it is a sneak attack because of flanking, if I take my 2nd attack against m, I am not flanking and no longer sneak attacking.

As for invisibility, you stop being invisible the second after you make a single attack.

Strict/Loose DM: Only first attack counts as Sneak Attack

Power/Anything Goes DM: All attacks that round count as Sneak Attack.
Zherog
06-19-06, 01:18 PM If you perform a full attack, and your first attack deals sneak attack damage, then every other attack in that full attack will do sneak attack damage.

That's incorrect. I can think of two examples that show otherwise.

If you used feint at the end of your last round, the next attack you make denies your target their Dex mod, making them susceptable to sneak attack. Even if you have 10 attacks a round, only the first one gets sneak attack.
If you are invisible via the invisibility spell and make a full attack, only the first attack is a sneak attack, because you become visible immediately after making the attack.

edit: heh. I posted the same time Tarkin edited.
Tsuul
06-19-06, 02:14 PM Only the first attack of a full-attack.
Which probably shouldn't happen [the full-attack], because if the opponent survives the full-attack, the rogue is completely open.
Gryllmyre
06-19-06, 02:22 PM Ok, thanks for the replies.

As my own personal rule, if as a rogue you are neither hidden or invisible, but the target is simply not aware of you, I allow a non-Dex attack. But based on the responses, after the first attack, the target is immediately aware and gains their Dex against the remaining attacks.

Sounds good to me.
ManinBlaq
06-19-06, 02:45 PM (Just playing devils advocate .. because I'm kinda on the fense about this issue)

I think the problem stems from the declaration that 'there is no such thing as an attack action' (which is familiar to those who keep up with the Faq and other such resources), D&D only supports a limited number of actions Immediate, Free, Swift, Move, Standard and Full-Round.

Making a full attack - is considered a single action: a Full-Round action. Full-Round actions aren't prohibited from sneak attack and invisibility. A rogue could throw a greatsword while invisible. It will take him the whole round to do it.. but he will be invisible through the entire attack and add his sneak attack damage.

Likewise - in Tarkin's: ( Mrm ) example .. Let's say the combat has been driven to a standstill as the two sides pummel each other with arrows. The rogue turns invisible and sneaks over to place himself between them.

Combat has started ..so this isn't a question of surprise round or flatfootedness. The two mobs are completely unaware of the rogue.

On the next turn the rogue attaks 'M' and then quickly turning hits the other 'm'.

I can't help feel that he should get sneak attack on both attacks. Even if he 'pops' immediately after/during his first strike - the other creature cannot react fast enough. He's intent on shooting arrows at the other aka: he's in the middle of his own full attack.

I wish WotC would settle on a base set of terminology - because half of them do throw it around in their resources, while some other part denies it exists or is a practical term for anything.
Ryu Katsuragi
06-19-06, 09:22 PM x.x I didn't exactly put it the best I could, but what I meant was...

If the condition for why you're getting sneak attack is present through-out the full attack, you continue to get sneak attack damage.

Such as, full attacking while flanking the enemy (and staying in the flank for each attack) will net you sneak attack damage on each attack.
Nom
06-19-06, 11:29 PM As my own personal rule, if as a rogue you are neither hidden or invisible, but the target is simply not aware of you, I allow a non-Dex attack.The issue is the mechanic used to gain the "not aware of you" condition. The combat rules assume that a non-flat-footed character in combat is (at least tangentially) aware of everything around them, unless the attacker is somehow unable to be detected (hidden, invisible, defender blind, ...).

Outside combat, the DM should adjudicate normal "attention". Sneaking up on someone outside combat requires Move Silently checks. Sneaking up on someone in combat is generally impossible (reduced visibility notwithstanding), because a character in combat is assumed to be using their peripheral vision to keep a constant eye out for threats (and because this is a much easier mechanic in a facing-light system than complex visibility rules). You could introduce a Bluff-based mechanic to allow one character to hold the attention of a target so another could sneak attack, but this should not come for free, nor be trivial to achieve.
But based on the responses, after the first attack, the target is immediately aware and gains their Dex against the remaining attacks.In general, yes. Assuming the target isn't flat-footed.
John Paul Stoddard
06-20-06, 03:39 AM The Problems lie in the actual Game Mechanics.
An Attack Happens in 6 Seconds ( a Round )
a Fifth Level or less Character get 1 Attack...Swinging Once is considered a Full Round Action and can't take a Move Action except a 5 ft move
A Sixth Level or Higher get Multiple Attacks..that first attack is no longer consider a Full round action and If the Character wants to can now for go the rest of his or her attacks and move more than 5 ft if they want to. Otherwise they get thier remainder of attacks, all within 6 seconds.

If a character is considered flatfooted then for all attacks in that Surprise Round (6 seconds) are considered Sneak attacks.

Otherwise you need to breakdown attacks based on Initiative.
All Initial attacks happen in order of Iniative and the Second, third and Any other Attacks occuring in subsequent order. Surprise attacks allways Come first and subsequent attacks fall into Order of Iniative.

Example
a 8th Level Rogue vs an 6th Level Fighter ( Both Get Multiple attacks)
the Rogue Catches the Fighter off Guard and Flatfooted
Rogue gets in the Intial Attack ( surprise Attack )
Both Roll For Initiative ( Fighter Nonlonger Flatfooted )
Fighter Wins Initiative Takes his Initial attack
Rogue Takes his Final Subsequent attack
Fighter Takes his remaining attack.....Thats one way of breaking down the Combat...6 Seconds of Combat

But Current Rules apply more like this
Rogue Catches the Fighter of Guard and Flatfooted
Rogue attacks with initial and Subsequent attack in Surprise round applying additional Damage to both attacks. 6 Seconds
(if Fighter is still standing, Initative is Rolled...Fighter is no longer Flatfooted )
Rogue Wins Initiative...Strike Once Strikes Twice ( remember this is a new Round)
Fighter Strikes Once, Strikes Twice if still able to...12 seconds of Combat

Lets look at the Same Scenarios but with a 6th Level Rogue instead

Rogue catches the Fighter Flatfooted and Surprise attacks
Rogue get Surprise attack and adds Additional Damage
Since the Rogue does not have any additional Attacks Fighter gets his Initial Attack followed by Subsequent Attacks..6 seconds of Combat

Rogue Get In Surprise attack deals Additional Damage in Surprise Round
Initiative Is Rolled and Fighter Wins Strikes once Strike Twice
Rogue Strikes once...12 seconds of Combat
tarkin
06-20-06, 02:18 PM I would agree that if the target is not aware of you, then you get a sneak attack.

But I can only think of a single possibility where the target would not be 'aware' of you (besides the standard stuff in the PHB/DMG - Flat-footted/hiding/invisibility/bluff = feint /etc).

That would be a dominated person with no commands given verbally in a language you understand, and you did not succesfully use spellcraft to realize a Dominate Person was cast.

In that situation, I could see you not being aware.

But if you think "I am behind him, he is not aware of me", that is really saying:

I am attempting to hide, will you force me to roll a Hide check or just accept my word that he doesn't see me?

Which is just plain foolish.
bucho
06-21-06, 03:01 PM I know that it is extreamly hard to know everything going on around you in combat. I currently do heavy arms fighting in the sca and I find it hard to know what is going on all around me while im fighting someone. So, if a person were to walk up behind me and shank me from behind they would defintly get me good. But after that happens its very hard to turn around quickly to confront them while wearing all that armor before they can shank you again.

I guess its one of those things that fall through the cracks of trying to put somethign that should be real time into a turn based system.
Chaser
06-22-06, 01:35 AM The Problems lie in the actual Game Mechanics.
Actually, many problems lie in your post and lack or misunderstanding of actual game mechanics and terms.

An Attack Happens in 6 Seconds ( a Round )
a Fifth Level or less Character get 1 Attack...Swinging Once is considered a Full Round Action and can't take a Move Action except a 5 ft move
This is completely inaccurate. One attack is a standard action, and the character also gets a move action in a normal round.

A Sixth Level or Higher get Multiple Attacks..that first attack is no longer consider a Full round action [the first attack is almost NEVER considered a full round action] and If the Character wants to can now for go the rest of his or her attacks and move more than 5 ft if they want to. Otherwise they get thier remainder of attacks, all within 6 seconds.
No, after his first attack the character can take the rest of his attacks and move 5', OR the character can take a move action.

If a character is considered flatfooted then for all attacks in that Surprise Round (6 seconds) are considered Sneak attacks. Phew! Close enough, provided a rogue, or someone with sneak attack, is attacking.

Otherwise you need to breakdown attacks based on Initiative.
All Initial attacks happen in order of Iniative and the Second, third and Any other Attacks occuring in subsequent order. Surprise attacks allways Come first and subsequent attacks fall into Order of Iniative.

What?

Example
a 8th Level Rogue vs an 6th Level Fighter ( Both Get Multiple attacks)
the Rogue Catches the Fighter off Guard and Flatfooted
Rogue gets in the Intial Attack ( surprise Attack )
Both Roll For Initiative ( Fighter Nonlonger Flatfooted )
Fighter Wins Initiative Takes his Initial attack Correct up to here. Then fighter gets to finish a full round RIGHT NOW.
Rogue Takes his Final Subsequent attack No, rogue takes his round's actions now.
Fighter Takes his remaining attack.....Thats one way of breaking down the Combat...6 Seconds of Combat Saying "I have houseruled this idea into a blow-by-blow system" would be a lot less confusing to those reading.

But Current Rules apply more like this
Rogue Catches the Fighter of Guard and Flatfooted Use "Surprise, Spot, Listen," etc., as well as flatfooted, it really helps when you're trying to explain things.
Rogue attacks with initial and Subsequent attack in Surprise round applying additional Damage to both attacks. 6 Seconds
NO, the surprise round is only ONE STANDARD ACTION [which can be replaced with a move action, as always] long. This means only one attack from the rogue, barring some interesting featwork.

(if Fighter is still standing, Initative is Rolled...Fighter is no longer Flatfooted )
Rogue Wins Initiative...Strike Once Strikes Twice ( remember this is a new Round)
Wrong. If the fighter's initiative number has not come up yet, the fighter is still flatfooted. If the rogue wins init, he gets full attack in his first full round if he chooses, with sneak attack if it applies [with a flatfooted fighter, it almost always does].
Fighter Strikes Once, Strikes Twice if still able to...12 seconds of Combat

Lets look at the Same Scenarios but with a 6th Level Rogue instead

Rogue catches the Fighter Flatfooted and Surprise attacks

Rogue get Surprise attack and adds Additional DamageSneak attacks. It is useful when explaining things to use actual rules terminology.
Since the Rogue does not have any additional Attacks The rogue almost never gets more than one attack in a surprise round, because it contains only a standard OR a move action. Fighter gets his Initial Attack followed by Subsequent Attacks..6 seconds of Combat Where is the initiaitive roll in this scenario you have just laid out? Flatfootedness can depend on it. If it is truly the same scenario you just used, and the rogue won initiative, the rogue gets to attack again, once in the surprise round [done at this point], and again when his initiative comes up before the fighter's turn.

Rogue Get In Surprise attack deals Additional Damage in Surprise Round " Gains surprise and sneak attacks the flatfooted fighter," I presume?
Initiative Is Rolled and Fighter Wins Strikes once Strike Twice
Rogue Strikes once...12 seconds of CombatOK.

Edit: I gave up on his 'seconds elapsing' at this point. Apologies.
Another Gnome
06-22-06, 03:32 AM Initiative Is Rolled and Fighter Wins Strikes once Strike Twice
Rogue Strikes once...12 seconds of Combat

No. A round is the six-second timeframe starting when a character's initiative first comes up, and lasting up to the beginning of the next occasion he or she may act, regardless of how many characters are involved in between.

You don't add up the time for each character; while it makes little difference as such, it would seriously mess up spell durations.
Leilond
06-22-06, 03:49 AM I can't remember where I read it, but I recall that being unaware of an attack denies you Dex towards that attack. This is something rogues thrive on, of course. So, I have a question.

I already know that you are flatfooted until you take your first turn in combat. No problems there.

The problem comes when you are in combat and are no longer flatfooted, but you are unaware of a rogue (either because they are far away and you just don't know they are there, they are invisible, or hidden).

When the rogue finally attacks (either with multiple arrow shots from 30 feet, or steps 5' out of the shadows and takes full swings, or is already there and invisible - not greater - and takes full swings), you are naturally aware of the rogue after the first strike. So do you gain Dex for the remainder of the attacks, or are you still denied Dex against the rogue until all his attacks are finished?
Read the "encounter" chapter in the DMG
There's a part that talk about the "entering of new foe in a battle"
When NEW enemies enter in a battle and NO ONE was aware of them (because they was well hided, they come uneared from another room or whateaver you want) the start the fight at the HIGHER initiative +1 and consider ALL the opponent as flatfooted. Usually you only need to make an "ear vs move silently" check and only if the new foes can arrive to the battlefield remaining out of view. A foe that BECOME invisible during battle cannot be considered in that situation, because everyone is aware of him, also not knowing where he really is, but everyone KNOW he's somewhere and he's dangerous. This situation apply ONLY for PC/NPC/Monster that no opponents know about their presence until their turn
tarkin
06-22-06, 11:07 AM I know that it is extreamly hard to know everything going on around you in combat. I currently do heavy arms fighting in the sca and I find it hard to know what is going on all around me while im fighting someone. So, if a person were to walk up behind me and shank me from behind they would defintly get me good. But after that happens its very hard to turn around quickly to confront them while wearing all that armor before they can shank you again.

I guess its one of those things that fall through the cracks of trying to put somethign that should be real time into a turn based system.

You have confused Parrying with using your Dex.

I know that it is extreamly hard to use Combat Expertise against more than one fighter. I currently do heavy arms fighting in the sca where Combat Expertise is heavily used to defend yourself and I find it hard to do that to more than one person. So, if a person were to walk up behind me and shank me from behind they would defintly get me good. But after that happens its very hard to turn around quickly to use combat expertise one them while wearing all that armor before they can shank you again. HOWEVER, as I was already moving around, my Dex was always effective against them.
John Paul Stoddard
06-22-06, 06:52 PM No. A round is the six-second timeframe starting when a character's initiative first comes up, and lasting up to the beginning of the next occasion he or she may act, regardless of how many characters are involved in between.

You don't add up the time for each character; while it makes little difference as such, it would seriously mess up spell durations.

I know you don't but you also cut and paste leaving out the Surprise attack section..

The Surprise attack and the rest total 12 seconds of Combat..

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gryllmyre 06-19-06, 01:00 PM	I can't remember where I read it, but I recall that being unaware of an attack denies you Dex towards that attack. This is something rogues thrive on, of course. So, I have a question. I already know that you are flatfooted until you take your first turn in combat. No problems there. The problem comes when you are in combat and are no longer flatfooted, but you are unaware of a rogue (either because they are far away and you just don't know they are there, they are invisible, or hidden). When the rogue finally attacks (either with multiple arrow shots from 30 feet, or steps 5' out of the shadows and takes full swings, or is already there and invisible - not greater - and takes full swings), you are naturally aware of the rogue after the first strike. So do you gain Dex for the remainder of the attacks, or are you still denied Dex against the rogue until all his attacks are finished?
Ryu Katsuragi 06-19-06, 01:08 PM	If you perform a full attack, and your first attack deals sneak attack damage, then every other attack in that full attack will do sneak attack damage. Invisible opponents always deny you your Dex to AC, and you have to know where the Rogue is/able to see him to be 'aware' of him. So, if they made a Hide check, and you fail your spot... You're unaware of him. An attack during that time will be a sneak attack.
tarkin 06-19-06, 01:11 PM	Being far away is relevant only indirectly. The only way to negate the dex is to be either invisible or hidden. Being far away gives penalties to Spot checks, which make hiding easier. If you check invisibility in the SRD it says: An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). A similar rule exists for Hide regarding ignoring their Dex, but it is harder to find. Under Combat (AC section) it says: Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC. This effectively means you lose your Dex when being attacked by a hidden creature. You also lose your Dex if you are tied up, paralyzed, etc. etc. --------- Note, Disputed point An earlier poster said if your first attack is a sneak attack all subsequent attacks are sneak attacks. This is blatantly false. If I am in the following position (r = me, M or m = monsters, a = ally) aMrm Then if I take my first attack against M, it is a sneak attack because of flanking, if I take my 2nd attack against m, I am not flanking and no longer sneak attacking. As for invisibility, you stop being invisible the second after you make a single attack. Strict/Loose DM: Only first attack counts as Sneak Attack Power/Anything Goes DM: All attacks that round count as Sneak Attack.
Zherog 06-19-06, 01:18 PM	If you perform a full attack, and your first attack deals sneak attack damage, then every other attack in that full attack will do sneak attack damage. That's incorrect. I can think of two examples that show otherwise. If you used feint at the end of your last round, the next attack you make denies your target their Dex mod, making them susceptable to sneak attack. Even if you have 10 attacks a round, only the first one gets sneak attack. If you are invisible via the invisibility spell and make a full attack, only the first attack is a sneak attack, because you become visible immediately after making the attack. edit: heh. I posted the same time Tarkin edited.
Tsuul 06-19-06, 02:14 PM	Only the first attack of a full-attack. Which probably shouldn't happen [the full-attack], because if the opponent survives the full-attack, the rogue is completely open.
Gryllmyre 06-19-06, 02:22 PM	Ok, thanks for the replies. As my own personal rule, if as a rogue you are neither hidden or invisible, but the target is simply not aware of you, I allow a non-Dex attack. But based on the responses, after the first attack, the target is immediately aware and gains their Dex against the remaining attacks. Sounds good to me.
ManinBlaq 06-19-06, 02:45 PM	(Just playing devils advocate .. because I'm kinda on the fense about this issue) I think the problem stems from the declaration that 'there is no such thing as an attack action' (which is familiar to those who keep up with the Faq and other such resources), D&D only supports a limited number of actions Immediate, Free, Swift, Move, Standard and Full-Round. Making a full attack - is considered a single action: a Full-Round action. Full-Round actions aren't prohibited from sneak attack and invisibility. A rogue could throw a greatsword while invisible. It will take him the whole round to do it.. but he will be invisible through the entire attack and add his sneak attack damage. Likewise - in Tarkin's: ( Mrm ) example .. Let's say the combat has been driven to a standstill as the two sides pummel each other with arrows. The rogue turns invisible and sneaks over to place himself between them. Combat has started ..so this isn't a question of surprise round or flatfootedness. The two mobs are completely unaware of the rogue. On the next turn the rogue attaks 'M' and then quickly turning hits the other 'm'. I can't help feel that he should get sneak attack on both attacks. Even if he 'pops' immediately after/during his first strike - the other creature cannot react fast enough. He's intent on shooting arrows at the other aka: he's in the middle of his own full attack. I wish WotC would settle on a base set of terminology - because half of them do throw it around in their resources, while some other part denies it exists or is a practical term for anything.
Ryu Katsuragi 06-19-06, 09:22 PM	x.x I didn't exactly put it the best I could, but what I meant was... If the condition for why you're getting sneak attack is present through-out the full attack, you continue to get sneak attack damage. Such as, full attacking while flanking the enemy (and staying in the flank for each attack) will net you sneak attack damage on each attack.
Nom 06-19-06, 11:29 PM	As my own personal rule, if as a rogue you are neither hidden or invisible, but the target is simply not aware of you, I allow a non-Dex attack.The issue is the mechanic used to gain the "not aware of you" condition. The combat rules assume that a non-flat-footed character in combat is (at least tangentially) aware of everything around them, unless the attacker is somehow unable to be detected (hidden, invisible, defender blind, ...). Outside combat, the DM should adjudicate normal "attention". Sneaking up on someone outside combat requires Move Silently checks. Sneaking up on someone in combat is generally impossible (reduced visibility notwithstanding), because a character in combat is assumed to be using their peripheral vision to keep a constant eye out for threats (and because this is a much easier mechanic in a facing-light system than complex visibility rules). You could introduce a Bluff-based mechanic to allow one character to hold the attention of a target so another could sneak attack, but this should not come for free, nor be trivial to achieve. But based on the responses, after the first attack, the target is immediately aware and gains their Dex against the remaining attacks.In general, yes. Assuming the target isn't flat-footed.
John Paul Stoddard 06-20-06, 03:39 AM	The Problems lie in the actual Game Mechanics. An Attack Happens in 6 Seconds ( a Round ) a Fifth Level or less Character get 1 Attack...Swinging Once is considered a Full Round Action and can't take a Move Action except a 5 ft move A Sixth Level or Higher get Multiple Attacks..that first attack is no longer consider a Full round action and If the Character wants to can now for go the rest of his or her attacks and move more than 5 ft if they want to. Otherwise they get thier remainder of attacks, all within 6 seconds. If a character is considered flatfooted then for all attacks in that Surprise Round (6 seconds) are considered Sneak attacks. Otherwise you need to breakdown attacks based on Initiative. All Initial attacks happen in order of Iniative and the Second, third and Any other Attacks occuring in subsequent order. Surprise attacks allways Come first and subsequent attacks fall into Order of Iniative. Example a 8th Level Rogue vs an 6th Level Fighter ( Both Get Multiple attacks) the Rogue Catches the Fighter off Guard and Flatfooted Rogue gets in the Intial Attack ( surprise Attack ) Both Roll For Initiative ( Fighter Nonlonger Flatfooted ) Fighter Wins Initiative Takes his Initial attack Rogue Takes his Final Subsequent attack Fighter Takes his remaining attack.....Thats one way of breaking down the Combat...6 Seconds of Combat But Current Rules apply more like this Rogue Catches the Fighter of Guard and Flatfooted Rogue attacks with initial and Subsequent attack in Surprise round applying additional Damage to both attacks. 6 Seconds (if Fighter is still standing, Initative is Rolled...Fighter is no longer Flatfooted ) Rogue Wins Initiative...Strike Once Strikes Twice ( remember this is a new Round) Fighter Strikes Once, Strikes Twice if still able to...12 seconds of Combat Lets look at the Same Scenarios but with a 6th Level Rogue instead Rogue catches the Fighter Flatfooted and Surprise attacks Rogue get Surprise attack and adds Additional Damage Since the Rogue does not have any additional Attacks Fighter gets his Initial Attack followed by Subsequent Attacks..6 seconds of Combat Rogue Get In Surprise attack deals Additional Damage in Surprise Round Initiative Is Rolled and Fighter Wins Strikes once Strike Twice Rogue Strikes once...12 seconds of Combat
tarkin 06-20-06, 02:18 PM	I would agree that if the target is not aware of you, then you get a sneak attack. But I can only think of a single possibility where the target would not be 'aware' of you (besides the standard stuff in the PHB/DMG - Flat-footted/hiding/invisibility/bluff = feint /etc). That would be a dominated person with no commands given verbally in a language you understand, and you did not succesfully use spellcraft to realize a Dominate Person was cast. In that situation, I could see you not being aware. But if you think "I am behind him, he is not aware of me", that is really saying: I am attempting to hide, will you force me to roll a Hide check or just accept my word that he doesn't see me? Which is just plain foolish.
bucho 06-21-06, 03:01 PM	I know that it is extreamly hard to know everything going on around you in combat. I currently do heavy arms fighting in the sca and I find it hard to know what is going on all around me while im fighting someone. So, if a person were to walk up behind me and shank me from behind they would defintly get me good. But after that happens its very hard to turn around quickly to confront them while wearing all that armor before they can shank you again. I guess its one of those things that fall through the cracks of trying to put somethign that should be real time into a turn based system.
Chaser 06-22-06, 01:35 AM	The Problems lie in the actual Game Mechanics. Actually, many problems lie in your post and lack or misunderstanding of actual game mechanics and terms. An Attack Happens in 6 Seconds ( a Round ) a Fifth Level or less Character get 1 Attack...Swinging Once is considered a Full Round Action and can't take a Move Action except a 5 ft move This is completely inaccurate. One attack is a standard action, and the character also gets a move action in a normal round. A Sixth Level or Higher get Multiple Attacks..that first attack is no longer consider a Full round action [the first attack is almost NEVER considered a full round action] and If the Character wants to can now for go the rest of his or her attacks and move more than 5 ft if they want to. Otherwise they get thier remainder of attacks, all within 6 seconds. No, after his first attack the character can take the rest of his attacks and move 5', OR the character can take a move action. If a character is considered flatfooted then for all attacks in that Surprise Round (6 seconds) are considered Sneak attacks. Phew! Close enough, provided a rogue, or someone with sneak attack, is attacking. Otherwise you need to breakdown attacks based on Initiative. All Initial attacks happen in order of Iniative and the Second, third and Any other Attacks occuring in subsequent order. Surprise attacks allways Come first and subsequent attacks fall into Order of Iniative. What? Example a 8th Level Rogue vs an 6th Level Fighter ( Both Get Multiple attacks) the Rogue Catches the Fighter off Guard and Flatfooted Rogue gets in the Intial Attack ( surprise Attack ) Both Roll For Initiative ( Fighter Nonlonger Flatfooted ) Fighter Wins Initiative Takes his Initial attack Correct up to here. Then fighter gets to finish a full round RIGHT NOW. Rogue Takes his Final Subsequent attack No, rogue takes his round's actions now. Fighter Takes his remaining attack.....Thats one way of breaking down the Combat...6 Seconds of Combat Saying "I have houseruled this idea into a blow-by-blow system" would be a lot less confusing to those reading. But Current Rules apply more like this Rogue Catches the Fighter of Guard and Flatfooted Use "Surprise, Spot, Listen," etc., as well as flatfooted, it really helps when you're trying to explain things. Rogue attacks with initial and Subsequent attack in Surprise round applying additional Damage to both attacks. 6 Seconds NO, the surprise round is only ONE STANDARD ACTION [which can be replaced with a move action, as always] long. This means only one attack from the rogue, barring some interesting featwork. (if Fighter is still standing, Initative is Rolled...Fighter is no longer Flatfooted ) Rogue Wins Initiative...Strike Once Strikes Twice ( remember this is a new Round) Wrong. If the fighter's initiative number has not come up yet, the fighter is still flatfooted. If the rogue wins init, he gets full attack in his first full round if he chooses, with sneak attack if it applies [with a flatfooted fighter, it almost always does]. Fighter Strikes Once, Strikes Twice if still able to...12 seconds of Combat Lets look at the Same Scenarios but with a 6th Level Rogue instead Rogue catches the Fighter Flatfooted and Surprise attacks Rogue get Surprise attack and adds Additional DamageSneak attacks. It is useful when explaining things to use actual rules terminology. Since the Rogue does not have any additional Attacks The rogue almost never gets more than one attack in a surprise round, because it contains only a standard OR a move action. Fighter gets his Initial Attack followed by Subsequent Attacks..6 seconds of Combat Where is the initiaitive roll in this scenario you have just laid out? Flatfootedness can depend on it. If it is truly the same scenario you just used, and the rogue won initiative, the rogue gets to attack again, once in the surprise round [done at this point], and again when his initiative comes up before the fighter's turn. Rogue Get In Surprise attack deals Additional Damage in Surprise Round " Gains surprise and sneak attacks the flatfooted fighter," I presume? Initiative Is Rolled and Fighter Wins Strikes once Strike Twice Rogue Strikes once...12 seconds of CombatOK. Edit: I gave up on his 'seconds elapsing' at this point. Apologies.
Another Gnome 06-22-06, 03:32 AM	Initiative Is Rolled and Fighter Wins Strikes once Strike Twice Rogue Strikes once...12 seconds of Combat No. A round is the six-second timeframe starting when a character's initiative first comes up, and lasting up to the beginning of the next occasion he or she may act, regardless of how many characters are involved in between. You don't add up the time for each character; while it makes little difference as such, it would seriously mess up spell durations.
Leilond 06-22-06, 03:49 AM	I can't remember where I read it, but I recall that being unaware of an attack denies you Dex towards that attack. This is something rogues thrive on, of course. So, I have a question. I already know that you are flatfooted until you take your first turn in combat. No problems there. The problem comes when you are in combat and are no longer flatfooted, but you are unaware of a rogue (either because they are far away and you just don't know they are there, they are invisible, or hidden). When the rogue finally attacks (either with multiple arrow shots from 30 feet, or steps 5' out of the shadows and takes full swings, or is already there and invisible - not greater - and takes full swings), you are naturally aware of the rogue after the first strike. So do you gain Dex for the remainder of the attacks, or are you still denied Dex against the rogue until all his attacks are finished? Read the "encounter" chapter in the DMG There's a part that talk about the "entering of new foe in a battle" When NEW enemies enter in a battle and NO ONE was aware of them (because they was well hided, they come uneared from another room or whateaver you want) the start the fight at the HIGHER initiative +1 and consider ALL the opponent as flatfooted. Usually you only need to make an "ear vs move silently" check and only if the new foes can arrive to the battlefield remaining out of view. A foe that BECOME invisible during battle cannot be considered in that situation, because everyone is aware of him, also not knowing where he really is, but everyone KNOW he's somewhere and he's dangerous. This situation apply ONLY for PC/NPC/Monster that no opponents know about their presence until their turn
tarkin 06-22-06, 11:07 AM	I know that it is extreamly hard to know everything going on around you in combat. I currently do heavy arms fighting in the sca and I find it hard to know what is going on all around me while im fighting someone. So, if a person were to walk up behind me and shank me from behind they would defintly get me good. But after that happens its very hard to turn around quickly to confront them while wearing all that armor before they can shank you again. I guess its one of those things that fall through the cracks of trying to put somethign that should be real time into a turn based system. You have confused Parrying with using your Dex. I know that it is extreamly hard to use Combat Expertise against more than one fighter. I currently do heavy arms fighting in the sca where Combat Expertise is heavily used to defend yourself and I find it hard to do that to more than one person. So, if a person were to walk up behind me and shank me from behind they would defintly get me good. But after that happens its very hard to turn around quickly to use combat expertise one them while wearing all that armor before they can shank you again. HOWEVER, as I was already moving around, my Dex was always effective against them.
John Paul Stoddard 06-22-06, 06:52 PM	No. A round is the six-second timeframe starting when a character's initiative first comes up, and lasting up to the beginning of the next occasion he or she may act, regardless of how many characters are involved in between. You don't add up the time for each character; while it makes little difference as such, it would seriously mess up spell durations. I know you don't but you also cut and paste leaving out the Surprise attack section.. The Surprise attack and the rest total 12 seconds of Combat..