Post/Author/DateTime	Post
savant_warlord13 09-05-06, 09:23 AM	Belt of Giant's Strength +6, Periapt of Wisdom +6, Amulet of Health +6, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Cloak of Charisma +6, Headband of Intellect +6 216,000 gp, 6 item slots. Belt of magnificence +6 200,000 gp, 1 item slot Isn't there something wrong with this picture?
Thurbane 09-05-06, 09:27 AM	Not really, no, because no sane DM would ever let one of those ridiculous things exist in his game. So since it doesn't exist, it isn't broken. :D
Gil Gwath 09-05-06, 09:33 AM	if i'm not wrong Belt of magnificence is from the Miniature Handbook. If so, then don't bother with it. Despite what many people will try to make you believe, it wasn't designed to be used in the P&P game. Oh, everybody obviously choice to play as he wish. If you are happy with it, then go on. But please don't try to convince me to use it. Thanks.
Prodigalsun 09-05-06, 10:02 AM	Most characters concentrate on one or two stats, so speding 2x 36k or 200k, I don't know... If your willing to spend so much on your stats I would let you, there are more important things worth 200k!!
Kradlo 09-05-06, 11:20 AM	I do think price is too low for the Belt of Magnificence. The +2 version is 25,000 gp, which compares quite favorably to having six items granting a +2 bonus each (24,000 gp, six slots). The Belt of Magnificence +4 is 100,000 gp, as opposed to 96,000 gp and six slots to gain the same benefit. At the very least, following the same mathematical progression, the Belt of Magnificence +6 should be 225,000 gp. Still a bargain, given that you only use one item slot while boosting all six ability scores.
ninjeff 09-05-06, 11:45 AM	No, it's not broken. The Belt of Magnificence is basically charging you to upgrade ALL of your ability scores instead of just one or two. That's some wasted money on most characters. Also, it takes up the slot commonly used by the class with the most MAD (the monk needs his belt slot for the Monk's Belt), meaning that it's only cost-effective for hybrid builds, which are often kind of shafted anyway.
Yak of Darkness 09-05-06, 11:48 AM	Isn't there something wrong with this picture?Yes. You're not considering who the hell will ever buy a +6 enhancement bonus item for all six stats. Answer: nobody. For someone who really wants a +6 bonus to all stats, the belt is very cost and space efficient. But few characters really want that, and nobody really needs it. There are better things to spend money on. That said, a character interested in, say, boosting four of the six stats (like a monk or a paladin . . . you could even stretch the paladin into wanting five), could be interested in the item for slot-saving purposes, but in either case, it's still more expensive than buying the individual items.
wonlee76 09-05-06, 01:42 PM	Thinking about it some, all PCs would benefit from 4 out of the 6 stats raised from the item (Str, Dex, Con, Wis). Con, Dex, Wis all benefit saves so any class can get some benefit for the belt. Strength is just universally useful for any class. Charisma and Intelligence are the only odd men out. Very few classes get a big boost from those boosts. But to follow the DMG guidelines on what would be an appropriate price for a belt that raises all six stats: Belt of Magnificence +2: 4k for physical based enhancement. 6k for the other 2 physical enhancements. 8k for the 3 mental stats since its in the inappropriate slot. Total: 40k vs. 25k. In compares relatively well figuring Charisma and Int are not universally beneficial for all PCs. Belt of Magnificence +4: 16k for 1st physical based enhancement. 24k for the next two physical enhancements. 32k for the three mental stats. Total: 136k vs. whatever the Miniature Handbook price is. If I had to hazard a guess, I'm guessing a +4 belt in the Mini handbook is 75k or 100k. If its 75k, its still right around the right area if you consider 2 mental stats are generally worthless for most classes. Belt of Magnificence +6: 32k for 1st physical based enhancement. 48k for the next two physical enhancements. 64k for the three mental enhancements. 320k vs. 200k: Still in the right ballpark if you presume 2 of the stats will have minimal effect for the player (320k minus 128k). All in all, its balanced for most of the PHB classes. The problem with the pricing is it becomes more beneficial/cost effective for a class that gets a benefit from Charisma and/or Intelligence. So its okay for most classes at these prices. It ends up being a nice discount for classes like Wizard (Spellcasting boost), Sorceror (Spellcasting boost), Bard (Spellcasting boost), Paladin (Boost to Turn Undead, Divine Grace and # of turns/day), and Cleric (Boost to Turn Undead and # of turns/day). I guess my ultimate conclusion is, its an okay price for most PCs but put it in the hands of some PC that benefits from Int and/or Charisma, it becomes a nice solid discount priced item.
Yak of Darkness 09-05-06, 02:09 PM	Thinking about it some, all PCs would benefit from 4 out of the 6 stats raised from the item (Str, Dex, Con, Wis). Con, Dex, Wis all benefit saves so any class can get some benefit for the belt. Strength is just universally useful for any class.Sure, any class can get some benefits from these stats, but for many of them, it's incidental and not worth buying an item for. Take the saves, for example. While a +2 to Wis (item price 4,000gp) will give a character a bonus to Will saves, it's not worth the money just for that, since a 4,000gp Cloak of Resistance will give them twice the bonus to all three saves. And if the character in question has a good Will save (say, a wizard) and is looking to buy a stat-boosting item to raise a save, they'll likely go for one that helps one of their bad saves. There needs to be something else behind the stats for actually buying an item to be worthwhile. Con, I'd agree that everyone can use, since hit points are good for everyone. Dex is good for most, but for heavily-armored melee characters especially, it's not necessarily worth investing the money in. Nice to have, but no biggie. If you don't cast off of Wis, there are better things to spend your money on than the periapt. And unless your Str score is so anemic that you can't carry your own backpack, there are a great many classes that don't need the boost. Again, I guess it is "universally useful" in that everyone does get a little bit of use out of it, but it ain't worth the gold to raise it if you're not a melee beatstick.
PhaedrusXY 09-05-06, 02:26 PM	It is fine for the reasons already stated. Most characters don't need a +6 to all stats, and would be better off buying one or two individual stat boosters. The exception to this is high level Psychic Warriors with Psychofeedback. :D
RobbyPants 09-05-06, 02:33 PM	At first glance, it does seem a little powerful, but as others have been saying, not many characters get a real boost from having all six scores increased. Thinking about it some, all PCs would benefit from 4 out of the 6 stats raised from the item (Str, Dex, Con, Wis). Con, Dex, Wis all benefit saves so any class can get some benefit for the belt. Strength is just universally useful for any class. Charisma and Intelligence are the only odd men out. Very few classes get a big boost from those boosts. I would think that only Dex and Con are the real contenders for any class. Anyone can use the extra HP, and even heavily armored PCs can still use Dex to boost their initiative, ranged attacks, and reflex saves. A boost to Str doesn't hurt a wizard, but does it really help? Wis helps anyone with Will saves, but if they aren't a divine caster, about the only other boost comes to Listen and Spot.
wonlee76 09-05-06, 02:59 PM	Sure, any class can get some benefits from these stats, but for many of them, it's incidental and not worth buying an item for. I'm not in complete disagreement with you. Just saying that on a whole, can a PC benefit completely from a belt of magnificence. No. How much can a PC benefit as a norm from a 1 slot item. 4 stats provide benefits to some degree for any PC class. Take the saves, for example. While a +2 to Wis (item price 4,000gp) will give a character a bonus to Will saves, it's not worth the money just for that, since a 4,000gp Cloak of Resistance will give them twice the bonus to all three saves. And if the character in question has a good Will save (say, a wizard) and is looking to buy a stat-boosting item to raise a save, they'll likely go for one that helps one of their bad saves. There needs to be something else behind the stats for actually buying an item to be worthwhile. Well, what you neglect to consider in my opinion is the boost to saves from the Belt stacks with the boost to saves from a Cloak of Resistance. Nothing stops a PC from getting both items to basically get a +8 to all saves. Also, there are benefits to skills and stuff but this varies too much to quantify from 1 class to another. Con, I'd agree that everyone can use, since hit points are good for everyone. I'm glad we agree on something. ;) Dex is good for most, but for heavily-armored melee characters especially, it's not necessarily worth investing the money in. Nice to have, but no biggie. Dex is good even for heavy armored melee characters. Better Initiative, better reflex saves, better dex based skills countering some of the penalties for armor check. Better to hit roll with range weapons presuming the melee guy carries a backup range weapon. There's more to Dex then just AC. AC is one benefit that Dex gives you. If you don't cast off of Wis, there are better things to spend your money on than the periapt. I refuse to think a higher Wis is a waste of money because it does raise your Will Save. Something that any PC with a low Will Save "may" consider useful. Is it the first item some melee fighter type or rogue type might buy? Definitely not. There are more efficient ways to spend money to tailor yourself to your needs but when you get to high level play where you have enough money to spend 200k on a belt of magnificence +6, its probably well worth the price since it does free up 5 item slots for "other" more useful magical items. And unless your Str score is so anemic that you can't carry your own backpack, there are a great many classes that don't need the boost. Again, I guess it is "universally useful" in that everyone does get a little bit of use out of it, but it ain't worth the gold to raise it if you're not a melee beatstick. Strength Draining monsters, Ray of Enfeeblement, holding onto that bag of holding... Its nice to have a buffer to prevent being completely hamstrung due to having a dump stat like Strength. Plus, bonuses to hit for high strength can be useful for almost all PC classes. Spellcasters get a boost to hit with melee touch attacks. Maybe not the most benefit for a higher strength but some benefit.
Yak of Darkness 09-05-06, 03:10 PM	I think our difference here is in the way we're looking at this. You seem to be seeing "any possible use" for a stat as good reason for boosting them. Carrying capacity, protection against a chance encounter with strength-draining monsters, a lesser yet significantly more expensive boost to saves (well, I guess that should just be "save," since it's one instead of all)? Technically, those are all uses for higher stats. I'm looking at it through the lens of "significant enough use to ever be worth spending money on." Can a wizard get some use out of a higher strength? Sure. Is it worth giving up money that could be spent on a stat that really matters, on protective items, on enhancements to their spellcasting (orange ioun stones, pearls of power, etc.), on scrolls and spellbook stuff, on wands/staves? Hell no. There's opportunity cost in everything you buy, after all. It's not just "well, I might as well buy this item to boost X." It's "Out of all these items, which is best for me to spend my limited funding on?" Whatever reason you can come up with for boosting a non-essential stat, there's almost certainly another item out there that either does the stat's job in a cheaper and more efficient fashion (such as for saves), or is far more important and/or useful to the class in question.