Belt of Metamagic. Help me price it. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Belt of Metamagic. Help me price it. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bedevere
05-30-07, 05:32 PM Righty. I'm creating a magic item for a game I'm in, and am having trouble coming up with a sensible price for it, and as a result, thought I'd get about 78 different opinions on the matter here. :)

The item is a belt that combines all the rods of metamagic into one item.
You can use each metamagic feat three times a day, same as the rods.
You can only use one metamagic feat from it at once, same as the rods.
The item is slotted, unlike the rods, which are unslotted.
You can't share them between the party as easily, as they are all tied up in one item.

So. Given the above points, what sort of pricing would you set the lesser, regular, and greater versions at? I've taken several goes, and I keep changing my mind as to what seems balanced, and what seems over/underpriced. With luck, I'll get some kind of concensus here, and avoid any future headaches on this one. :)
Vharuck
05-30-07, 05:49 PM I'm tempted to call this an artifact.
lint trap
05-30-07, 05:53 PM Even the lesser version is borderline Epic. Assuming you're only using the metamagic rods from the DMG, it should cost at least 150,000 gp. Normal and greater would be well into epic territory.
Bedevere
05-30-07, 06:15 PM I dont see what is so powerful about it to call it near epic...

I mean, all you are doing is getting all the rods into one item. Easier to steal, impossible to use more than one effect at once, etc. Takes up a valuable item slot, too.

Sure, by the guidelines for item creation, the total price might be higher than 200k by a long way, but I simply cannot think of any reason that this should be considered any more powerful than owning a load of the rods, which are clearly not epic.
Note all the limitations I put on this thing. Cant use more than one effect at once, just like the (non epic) rods, being the big one...

If anyone else thinks this should be epic, can you actually back your claims up with reasoning? So that I can either respond to you, or agree with you, if you have a good reason... :)
UCsimplyme
05-30-07, 06:52 PM With the belt, you are also hands free where as a rod requires the use of a hand. So what you are getting is an item that you can use while wielding sword and shield, two handed weapon or two weapons that gives you more flexibility. If you had multiple rods, you would have to spend actions to draw them and put them away. With a belt, you do not.
Archtyrant Terevoth
05-30-07, 06:54 PM I dont see what is so powerful about it to call it near epic...

I mean, all you are doing is getting all the rods into one item.

Get the price of each metamagic rod you're putting into the belt.

Now add them up.

The price will be bigger than any non-epic magic item.
mharb
05-30-07, 08:08 PM First off, rods are slotted. They take a weapon hand slot, (i.e. you can't use a rod with both hands full. Switching between them doesn't require two move equivalents actions to store and draw.

Being bound up in one item means it can't be shared between the party as easily, doesn't have an effect on price. I.e. a single scroll with 2 spells costs the same as a pair of scrolls with one spell each.

Multiple different abilities....
Multiply the cost of all lesser abilities by 1.5

Uncustomary space limitation...
Multiply entire cost by 1.5

(price of most expensive metamagic rod)
+
(1.5 * total price of all other metamagic rods)
* 1.5

Start with the lesser version:

35,000 gp Quicken
+
(1.5 * 14,000 Maximize + 9000 Empower + 3000 Enlarge + 3000 extend
* 1.5
= 78,500 gp x 1.5

= 117,500 gp for the lesser belt
Bedevere
05-31-07, 03:21 AM With the belt, you are also hands free where as a rod requires the use of a hand.

I cant find any reference in the rules that says you need a rod in hand. Only that it has to be on your person when you use it.

That's kind of the point of unslotted items, in fact, that you DONT take up item slots with them.
wonlee76
05-31-07, 11:11 AM Well, the item itself may not be "epic" (ie. x10 price kicker) but the total price of such a belt will be so high that an epic character is the only one who can afford it.

I would suggest just adding up the costs for all the greater metamagic rods and call it a day.

73k for Greater Empower
24.5k for Greater Extend
24.5k for Greater Enlarge
121.5k for Greater Maximize
170k for Greater Quicken
24.5k for Greater Silent

Total: 458,000 gold
Knightblde
05-31-07, 11:42 AM Actually, almost every rod in the DMG says it must be wielded, including the Metamagic Rods. Therefore, it takes up a hand slot.

I come up with 602,000 gp for the Greater version of the belt.
Bedevere
05-31-07, 12:16 PM Metamagic rods description, DMG p236
Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times a day

This is the only passage I can find in my DMG regarding how the rods grant the feat. No mention of having to wield them. In fact, it specifically says that possessing the rod is all that is required. Same as any unslotted item...

If you know of some other passage that suggests otherwise, I'd be happy to hear so.
Merestil Haye
05-31-07, 12:23 PM Actually, almost every rod in the DMG says it must be wielded, including the Metamagic Rods. Therefore, it takes up a hand slot.1. There is no "hand slot."
2. Only Wondrous Items and Rings occupy body slots.

For these reasons, the rods cannot be considered a slotted item (or an unslotted one, either - the concept just does not apply).

There is no precedent for combining multiple rod functions. The DM can just say no.

There are several other options. These include specifying that you may make combination rods at the sum of the costs, or imposing a surcharge (flat or escalating) for each additional feat, or allowing the belt with any of the surcharge options.

I'm not sure what I'd do; it would either be a flat "no" or a combination item with surcharge. Probably the latter.
Knightblde
05-31-07, 07:17 PM Metamagic rods description, DMG p236

This is the only passage I can find in my DMG regarding how the rods grant the feat. No mention of having to wield them. In fact, it specifically says that possessing the rod is all that is required. Same as any unslotted item...

If you know of some other passage that suggests otherwise, I'd be happy to hear so.

It was kind of hard to find but:

Page 233 DMG Rods: Activation

Details relating to rod use vary from item to item. See the individual descriptions for specifics.

And Page 236 DMG Metamagic Rods

In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

From Webster.com

Main Entry: wield
Pronunciation: 'wEld
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English welden to control, from Old English wieldan; akin to Old High German waltan to rule, Latin valEre to be strong, be worth
1 chiefly dialect : to deal successfully with : MANAGE
2 : to handle (as a tool) especially effectively <wield a broom>
3 a : to exert one's authority by means of <wield influence> b : have at one's command or disposal <did not wield appropriate credentials -- G. W. Bonham>
- wield·er noun

Almost all of the rods refer to the weilder, not the owner, or carrier.

And the Hand, while not being a 'slot' is still a slot. Can a PHB race use a sword, shield, dagger, bow, staff, wand, scroll etc without a hand?
risner
05-31-07, 11:48 PM all the rods of metamagic into one item ... each metamagic feat three times a day ... only use one metamagic feat [on any particular casting] ... The item is slotted

Easy:

Calculate the price before making it slotted:
Price of most expensive rod + 1.5 * (sum of the price of all the remaining rods

Look at slot affinity and think of which slot it should be:
Helm seems correct affinity /2 for the helm price.
Belt isn't correct ability /1.5 for the belt price.

Simple math example:
Three rods (10,000 / 6,000 / 4,000)
10000 + 1.5*(6000+4000) = 25,000
Helm price = 25,000 / 2 = 12,500 gp
Belt price = 25,000 / 1.5 = 16,667 gp
Bedevere
06-01-07, 02:19 AM I think I'm going to give up on this idea, at least looking for help here. I've so far got no real help at all, I'm sad to say.

I can do the maths of the item creation guidelines myself, but as with any item, I expect the end result is way off.

Without anyone having actual insight, instead of quoting or misquoting rules, I'll have to stick to aquiring the rods, which are much less appropriate for the character in question than this idea was, but at least will not involve a headache on the pricing. :(
risner
06-01-07, 11:25 AM I think I'm going to give up on this idea, at least looking for help here. I've so far got no real help at all, I'm sad to say.

I can do the maths of the item creation guidelines myself, but as with any item, I expect the end result is way off.

Without anyone having actual insight, instead of quoting or misquoting rules, I'll have to stick to aquiring the rods, which are much less appropriate for the character in question than this idea was, but at least will not involve a headache on the pricing. :(

So which one of these is what you are saying:

1) I did the math and I thought the price was too high, so I wanted to expoit the system. I came here to find out how to exploit the system.

2) I did the math and I thought it was too cheap, and I wanted to make sure the several hundred thousand gp was high enough.

3) I did the math, and felt the price was just right and wanted to verify how things worked.

If your idea was #1, then sorry to tell you, the system is designed this way. You can't make an item cheaper because you just "want" it to be cheaper. You shouldn't have came here with the concept of "they will give me ammo to use against my DM."

If your idea was #2, then no it isn't too cheap to use the proper methods. This item you want should cost several hundred thousand and/or be epic depending on the DM.

If your idea was #3, hen your last message certainly didn't seem to be showing that fact.

Anyway, I reject your assertion that no one helped you here. Everyone in this thread has so far given you help and good advise (with the acception of the tangent of if a rod is a held item or not which wasn't directly associated to your question.)
lint trap
06-01-07, 11:54 AM I think I'm going to give up on this idea, at least looking for help here. I've so far got no real help at all, I'm sad to say.

Look kid, the reasons for this item being priced so high are the exact same reasons why you wanted it in the first place. One item that does five things will always cost more than five items that do one thing. Most of the answers given here were logical and well-supported by the rules. Don't get cranky just because you didn't hear what you wanted to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bedevere 05-30-07, 05:32 PM	Righty. I'm creating a magic item for a game I'm in, and am having trouble coming up with a sensible price for it, and as a result, thought I'd get about 78 different opinions on the matter here. :) The item is a belt that combines all the rods of metamagic into one item. You can use each metamagic feat three times a day, same as the rods. You can only use one metamagic feat from it at once, same as the rods. The item is slotted, unlike the rods, which are unslotted. You can't share them between the party as easily, as they are all tied up in one item. So. Given the above points, what sort of pricing would you set the lesser, regular, and greater versions at? I've taken several goes, and I keep changing my mind as to what seems balanced, and what seems over/underpriced. With luck, I'll get some kind of concensus here, and avoid any future headaches on this one. :)
Vharuck 05-30-07, 05:49 PM	I'm tempted to call this an artifact.
lint trap 05-30-07, 05:53 PM	Even the lesser version is borderline Epic. Assuming you're only using the metamagic rods from the DMG, it should cost at least 150,000 gp. Normal and greater would be well into epic territory.
Bedevere 05-30-07, 06:15 PM	I dont see what is so powerful about it to call it near epic... I mean, all you are doing is getting all the rods into one item. Easier to steal, impossible to use more than one effect at once, etc. Takes up a valuable item slot, too. Sure, by the guidelines for item creation, the total price might be higher than 200k by a long way, but I simply cannot think of any reason that this should be considered any more powerful than owning a load of the rods, which are clearly not epic. Note all the limitations I put on this thing. Cant use more than one effect at once, just like the (non epic) rods, being the big one... If anyone else thinks this should be epic, can you actually back your claims up with reasoning? So that I can either respond to you, or agree with you, if you have a good reason... :)
UCsimplyme 05-30-07, 06:52 PM	With the belt, you are also hands free where as a rod requires the use of a hand. So what you are getting is an item that you can use while wielding sword and shield, two handed weapon or two weapons that gives you more flexibility. If you had multiple rods, you would have to spend actions to draw them and put them away. With a belt, you do not.
Archtyrant Terevoth 05-30-07, 06:54 PM	I dont see what is so powerful about it to call it near epic... I mean, all you are doing is getting all the rods into one item. Get the price of each metamagic rod you're putting into the belt. Now add them up. The price will be bigger than any non-epic magic item.
mharb 05-30-07, 08:08 PM	First off, rods are slotted. They take a weapon hand slot, (i.e. you can't use a rod with both hands full. Switching between them doesn't require two move equivalents actions to store and draw. Being bound up in one item means it can't be shared between the party as easily, doesn't have an effect on price. I.e. a single scroll with 2 spells costs the same as a pair of scrolls with one spell each. Multiple different abilities.... Multiply the cost of all lesser abilities by 1.5 Uncustomary space limitation... Multiply entire cost by 1.5 (price of most expensive metamagic rod) + (1.5 * total price of all other metamagic rods) * 1.5 Start with the lesser version: 35,000 gp Quicken + (1.5 * 14,000 Maximize + 9000 Empower + 3000 Enlarge + 3000 extend * 1.5 = 78,500 gp x 1.5 = 117,500 gp for the lesser belt
Bedevere 05-31-07, 03:21 AM	With the belt, you are also hands free where as a rod requires the use of a hand. I cant find any reference in the rules that says you need a rod in hand. Only that it has to be on your person when you use it. That's kind of the point of unslotted items, in fact, that you DONT take up item slots with them.
wonlee76 05-31-07, 11:11 AM	Well, the item itself may not be "epic" (ie. x10 price kicker) but the total price of such a belt will be so high that an epic character is the only one who can afford it. I would suggest just adding up the costs for all the greater metamagic rods and call it a day. 73k for Greater Empower 24.5k for Greater Extend 24.5k for Greater Enlarge 121.5k for Greater Maximize 170k for Greater Quicken 24.5k for Greater Silent Total: 458,000 gold
Knightblde 05-31-07, 11:42 AM	Actually, almost every rod in the DMG says it must be wielded, including the Metamagic Rods. Therefore, it takes up a hand slot. I come up with 602,000 gp for the Greater version of the belt.
Bedevere 05-31-07, 12:16 PM	Metamagic rods description, DMG p236 Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times a day This is the only passage I can find in my DMG regarding how the rods grant the feat. No mention of having to wield them. In fact, it specifically says that possessing the rod is all that is required. Same as any unslotted item... If you know of some other passage that suggests otherwise, I'd be happy to hear so.
Merestil Haye 05-31-07, 12:23 PM	Actually, almost every rod in the DMG says it must be wielded, including the Metamagic Rods. Therefore, it takes up a hand slot.1. There is no "hand slot." 2. Only Wondrous Items and Rings occupy body slots. For these reasons, the rods cannot be considered a slotted item (or an unslotted one, either - the concept just does not apply). There is no precedent for combining multiple rod functions. The DM can just say no. There are several other options. These include specifying that you may make combination rods at the sum of the costs, or imposing a surcharge (flat or escalating) for each additional feat, or allowing the belt with any of the surcharge options. I'm not sure what I'd do; it would either be a flat "no" or a combination item with surcharge. Probably the latter.
Knightblde 05-31-07, 07:17 PM	Metamagic rods description, DMG p236 This is the only passage I can find in my DMG regarding how the rods grant the feat. No mention of having to wield them. In fact, it specifically says that possessing the rod is all that is required. Same as any unslotted item... If you know of some other passage that suggests otherwise, I'd be happy to hear so. It was kind of hard to find but: Page 233 DMG Rods: Activation Details relating to rod use vary from item to item. See the individual descriptions for specifics. And Page 236 DMG Metamagic Rods In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast. From Webster.com Main Entry: wield Pronunciation: 'wEld Function: transitive verb Etymology: Middle English welden to control, from Old English wieldan; akin to Old High German waltan to rule, Latin valEre to be strong, be worth 1 chiefly dialect : to deal successfully with : MANAGE 2 : to handle (as a tool) especially effectively <wield a broom> 3 a : to exert one's authority by means of <wield influence> b : have at one's command or disposal <did not wield appropriate credentials -- G. W. Bonham> - wield·er noun Almost all of the rods refer to the weilder, not the owner, or carrier. And the Hand, while not being a 'slot' is still a slot. Can a PHB race use a sword, shield, dagger, bow, staff, wand, scroll etc without a hand?
risner 05-31-07, 11:48 PM	all the rods of metamagic into one item ... each metamagic feat three times a day ... only use one metamagic feat [on any particular casting] ... The item is slotted Easy: Calculate the price before making it slotted: Price of most expensive rod + 1.5 * (sum of the price of all the remaining rods Look at slot affinity and think of which slot it should be: Helm seems correct affinity /2 for the helm price. Belt isn't correct ability /1.5 for the belt price. Simple math example: Three rods (10,000 / 6,000 / 4,000) 10000 + 1.5*(6000+4000) = 25,000 Helm price = 25,000 / 2 = 12,500 gp Belt price = 25,000 / 1.5 = 16,667 gp
Bedevere 06-01-07, 02:19 AM	I think I'm going to give up on this idea, at least looking for help here. I've so far got no real help at all, I'm sad to say. I can do the maths of the item creation guidelines myself, but as with any item, I expect the end result is way off. Without anyone having actual insight, instead of quoting or misquoting rules, I'll have to stick to aquiring the rods, which are much less appropriate for the character in question than this idea was, but at least will not involve a headache on the pricing. :(
risner 06-01-07, 11:25 AM	I think I'm going to give up on this idea, at least looking for help here. I've so far got no real help at all, I'm sad to say. I can do the maths of the item creation guidelines myself, but as with any item, I expect the end result is way off. Without anyone having actual insight, instead of quoting or misquoting rules, I'll have to stick to aquiring the rods, which are much less appropriate for the character in question than this idea was, but at least will not involve a headache on the pricing. :( So which one of these is what you are saying: 1) I did the math and I thought the price was too high, so I wanted to expoit the system. I came here to find out how to exploit the system. 2) I did the math and I thought it was too cheap, and I wanted to make sure the several hundred thousand gp was high enough. 3) I did the math, and felt the price was just right and wanted to verify how things worked. If your idea was #1, then sorry to tell you, the system is designed this way. You can't make an item cheaper because you just "want" it to be cheaper. You shouldn't have came here with the concept of "they will give me ammo to use against my DM." If your idea was #2, then no it isn't too cheap to use the proper methods. This item you want should cost several hundred thousand and/or be epic depending on the DM. If your idea was #3, hen your last message certainly didn't seem to be showing that fact. Anyway, I reject your assertion that no one helped you here. Everyone in this thread has so far given you help and good advise (with the acception of the tangent of if a rod is a held item or not which wasn't directly associated to your question.)
lint trap 06-01-07, 11:54 AM	I think I'm going to give up on this idea, at least looking for help here. I've so far got no real help at all, I'm sad to say. Look kid, the reasons for this item being priced so high are the exact same reasons why you wanted it in the first place. One item that does five things will always cost more than five items that do one thing. Most of the answers given here were logical and well-supported by the rules. Don't get cranky just because you didn't hear what you wanted to.