Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hallana 03-08-07, 04:34 AM	I had an idea of creating a magic item that would work in the following way: Whenever the character wearing this item rages, he is immediately enlarged (just as Enlarge Person except for duration; see below). The effect ends immediately when the rage ends (voluntarily or not). The item would, of course be useful only to characters with the rage class feature (only barbarian in core) and would be most beneficial for a trip monkey. You don't need a standard action to activate it, but you cannot wear a Str belt, and its use is limited by the number of rages/day you have. Thus, it would be more useful for barbarians with no levels in other classes. I'd like to hear your opinions on the following things: * How much should this item cost? * Do you think that another item slot be more approriate? * How would you tweak it to make it more interesting or useful? * What would you call the item? * What problems might this item cause? * Do similar items exist in official WotC books? Cheers =) H
Bhaal006 03-08-07, 12:00 PM	I can answer the cost issue 1 x 1 x 2000 = 2000 x 2 = 4000 x 1.5 = 6000 x .3 = 1800 - 6000 = 4200 thats straight out of the DMG. the cost is reduced by 30% because its use is limited to one class.
FreAkOuTRG 03-08-07, 12:35 PM	Not a bad idea, really. To make it more useful: You could combine it with a further +2 bonus to Str or Con, which would increase it by a quite a bit (it's more than just adding the cost of a periapt of health, of course). Variants on the item might increase size even further (again, it would cost quite a bit).
primemover003 03-08-07, 05:51 PM	Bhaal that's the LAST formula you use. Enlarge Person's main advantage is the Reach it gives. Though you gain +2 to Str you lose 2 to Dex and get a -1 to hit and AC (which adds up to an even +0 to hit and -2 to AC). The +1 average damage you get from the size isn't a huge thing.
Bhaal006 03-08-07, 06:21 PM	That's the only formula you use, straight from the DMG "Crafting Magic Items", What are you talking about?
Alcalientre 03-08-07, 06:38 PM	Bhaal - he's talking about the fact that that formula does not always give reasonable results. A great example of this is the +1 Sword of True Striking. Relatively cheap, using the formula, but completely broken. It is often a better idea to find a similar magic item and base the price off of that. I can't think of any offhand, so that's the extent of my contribution to this thread.
Bhaal006 03-08-07, 06:49 PM	Most DM's will tell you that your a stupid munchkin if you try to pull the truestriking sword trick. but this is the fastest, easiest, most accepted method for creating magic items, and 2,800gp seems like a perfectly reasonable price to me(I don't have all the books, so if this seems wrong to you do you have an example for more/less GP)
Alcalientre 03-08-07, 06:51 PM	...and some DM's might say you're a stupid munchkin if you try to buy an item that offers as many advantages as this for only 2,800 GP. Admittedly, using the formula is fast and easy, but that does not make it the most reasonable and and accurate option.
Bhaal006 03-08-07, 07:14 PM	Then that sounds like a problem for WotC, for publishing nigh useless information, the only reason the price was reduced was because it can only be used by one class, and actually i forgot to multiply initial result by 1.5, the new calculation brings the price to 4,200gp
wonlee76 03-08-07, 10:43 PM	Well, simplest way to break down the costs of enlarge: +4 Bonus to Disarm Checks due to size increase +4 Bonus to Grapple checks due to size increase +4 Bonus to Trip checks due to size increase +2 to Strength (stacks with enhancement bonuses) -2 to Dexterity -1 to hit due to size increase -1 to AC due to size increase Natural Reach increases Weapon Size increase (with a damage boost of probably up to +3.5 to damage if you take a standard 2 handed weapon like Greataxe or greatsword). Reduce whatever price of all of the above by 30% since its restricted to those with the Rage class feature and its limited by the number of rages you can use up in a day. Strength and Dexterity bonus cancel each other out. -1 to AC is worth about -1000 gold -1 to hit is worth about -1000 gold (half of a +1 weapon enhancement) +3 to damage due to weapon size increase: 9000 gold give or take (1/2 of a +3 weapon enhancement boost). Reach: ??? +4 bonus to a bunch of combat abilities like Grapple, Trip and Disarm: ??? Just based on the pricing for the weapon boost and reduction in price for the penalties for being large, I would peg the price at about 5000 gp but that doesn't take into account the bonuses for reach and disarm/grapple/trip.
stackmachine 03-09-07, 07:31 AM	Well, simplest way to break down the costs of enlarge: +4 Bonus to Disarm Checks due to size increase +4 Bonus to Grapple checks due to size increase +4 Bonus to Trip checks due to size increase +2 to Strength (stacks with enhancement bonuses) -2 to Dexterity -1 to hit due to size increase -1 to AC due to size increase Natural Reach increases Weapon Size increase (with a damage boost of probably up to +3.5 to damage if you take a standard 2 handed weapon like Greataxe or greatsword). Reduce whatever price of all of the above by 30% since its restricted to those with the Rage class feature and its limited by the number of rages you can use up in a day. Strength and Dexterity bonus cancel each other out. -1 to AC is worth about -1000 gold -1 to hit is worth about -1000 gold (half of a +1 weapon enhancement) +3 to damage due to weapon size increase: 9000 gold give or take (1/2 of a +3 weapon enhancement boost). Reach: ??? +4 bonus to a bunch of combat abilities like Grapple, Trip and Disarm: ??? Just based on the pricing for the weapon boost and reduction in price for the penalties for being large, I would peg the price at about 5000 gp but that doesn't take into account the bonuses for reach and disarm/grapple/trip. i agree with wonlee on this one, the benefits are far too great to make this a cheap item, even resticted to barbarian, rage and such... 5000 gps sounds about right. on the further tweaking issue, here are some suggestions. on rage, you could reap further benefits, like: - on activation, loud warcries sound over the battlefield, like a horde of charging barbarians (harmless, but highly effective for the honorable hero) - further enlargement, of course - sprout hamatula barbs, (from SC); they might (?) enlarge as well; great for grapping and counterattack - give intimidate-bonus, frighten your enemies! - give you the large-and-in-charge-feat while raging; knock goons back! (this might be a very powerful one, beware) - on start of the rage, an entanglement spell is cast, centered on you; you get freestide in the area. wage through their ranks while they cry for momma! - on the start of the rage, you can release an effect similar to a circular battering ram spell, knocking the goons away from you; take is as a cinematic effect ( i know, i know, its not by-the-book, but hell, it cool!) nameing it: - belt of glory - girdle of the grinder - strap of the ancient fury - munchkin's favourite :)
Nezkrul 03-09-07, 10:30 AM	come on guys, Enlarge Person? pfff.... Vest of Raging Giant Size When you rage, you have a caster level 19 Giant Size spell affect you instantly, the spell ends when your rage ends. 19x7x2000x0.7= 186,200gp WEEEEEEE! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Bhaal006 03-09-07, 11:45 AM	This item shouldn't cost much more than it costs to get Permanency for enlarge person(3,010gp), 4,200gp doesn't seem like it would be an unreasonable price.
primemover003 03-09-07, 01:02 PM	But it's not permanent... a permanent Enlarge has serious drawbacks. The item in question while limited to Rage is also only a Free action to activiate if it's tied to the Rage. That's pretty powerful and equivilent to a 4th level psionic power (expansion augmented to a swift action = 7pp = 4th level power) or a 5th level spell (Enlarge + Quicken Metamagic). This is especially important because Enlarge Person normally has a 1 Round casting time, not simply a Standar action!!!
Bhaal006 03-09-07, 01:10 PM	thats why the price figure i presented costs more than the permanent spell, if the math had come up and the price of the permanent spell effect was closer than or equal to the price figure i presented i would have conceeded and agreed whole-heartedly with you estimate, also the price accounts for a permanent effect, just as the spell does and so the speed with which the power is inacted is irrelevant.
primemover003 03-09-07, 03:15 PM	The action required to activate magic items is NEVER irrelevant. The item would be better balanced if it were activated with a Standard action and it'd be more acceptable at the price you're talking about.
wonlee76 03-09-07, 04:45 PM	This item shouldn't cost much more than it costs to get Permanency for enlarge person(3,010gp), 4,200gp doesn't seem like it would be an unreasonable price. Hmmm... my calculation has the mimimal cost for a permanencied enlarge person at 3040 gp (CL 9). But the reason why this should cost more than a permanencied enlarge is that a CL 10 caster has a 55% chance of dispelling your permanency. Even bigger percentage chance at higher levels so all that money/xp goes down the drain from a 3rd level or 6th level spell. Even if you pay for a higher caster level on the permanency, it can still go poof with a good roll from a dispel magic/greater dispel magic (and a large sized human is a ripe target for such a spell in my opinion since its obvious to your average spellcaster that there's magic in play on that person). Dispel magic on this belt only suppresses the effect for a few rounds by comparison. Looking back at my previous price estimate, I think the item should be a tad bit more expensive than 5000 gold. Maybe in the 7500 gp range give or take to take into account the benefits of being large for the special attacks maneuvers like disarm, grapple, sunder, and the reach you get for being enlarged, which my original calculation did not take into account since I don't know what a "good" price value is for a +4 to grapple, trip, disarm, extra reach, etc. is.
Bhaal006 03-09-07, 04:53 PM	The only problem with that statement is that said caster would have to use somesort of detection spell to realize you aren't some variety of giant. I think you're pricing this item way too high, you take an equal penalty to dex as your bonus to str, and a penalty to AC, the bonuses you recieve are size bonuses, and being large could be as big a hindrance as a help.
Hallana 03-09-07, 05:16 PM	The idea is that the belt's magic is powered and triggered by the rage. Making it a standard action would totally ruin it. But yeah, it looks like it's very hard to put a price tag on an item like this. Like wonlee pointed out, the formulae in DMG are only good for items with more straightforward effects, this would seem to require more analysis. Personally, I'd say 10,000 gp, but I don't know why. Comparing it to a 4th or 5th level effect is a bit too much. Command-word items should be around 1800 x spell lvl x CL and continuous 2000 x spell lvl x CL, according to DMG. If it were a continuous item, it would be easy to remove it when you have to be stealthy, so it's not a major drawback. I think the price should be calculated on the basis of a continuous item, but using just spell level and caster level are just not accurate enough here. stackmachine, thanks for the ideas. hehe, munchkin's favorite :D :D
primemover003 03-09-07, 07:47 PM	The only problem with that statement is that said caster would have to use somesort of detection spell to realize you aren't some variety of giant.No spells required, only a few skill checks. A simple Spellcraft DC 21 will identify the Enlarge Person spell in effect and a simple Knowledge (Nature) DC 15 will show that you are not of the Giant Type.
Bhaal006 03-09-07, 08:03 PM	BS, I am so a giant, look at how gigantic I am.
primemover003 03-09-07, 08:52 PM	LOL... being big as a barn does not a giant make. Giants are not as a race just big humans. Thematically yes, mechanically yes, verisimilarly no.
Bhaal006 03-09-07, 09:07 PM	I cna see my bluff check failed. Ok, you have a point, putting the price above 6,000-7,000gp is over doing it. it souldn't cost a whole lot more than double the Permanent spell, thats just ridiculous.
primemover003 03-09-07, 09:24 PM	No I got it... to quote Ren & Stimpy, "you're repulsively titanic!" Doing some research I've found the Braid of Dire Shifting in Races of Eberron, a one use headband that casts Enlarge person on a Shifter while it shifts (pretty much identical to Rage mechanics wise) for 100gp CL9. That's double what a potion of Enlarge person costs... maybe you could extrapolate something from there.
unusualsuspect 03-09-07, 09:25 PM	I cna see my bluff check failed. Ok, you have a point, putting the price above 6,000-7,000gp is over doing it. it souldn't cost a whole lot more than double the Permanent spell, thats just ridiculous. Why not? Despite its name, Permanancy is anything but, especially at the minimum CL you're trying to base this effect on. CL 9 is DC 20 on a dispel check... Even a 5th level wizard can and will completely and much-more-permanently dispel that effect once every 4 times. This item, though more limited in use, is activated basically as a free action and in conjunction with an ability that's used almost exclusively in combat, where Enlarge Person's incredible usefulness is found and where the social aspects of Enlarge Person are ignored. This item, though limited in use, is not COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DESTROYED WHEN DISPELLED, as a Permanancied Enlarge Person would be (equivolently, anyway). Immunity to destruction from as common a 3rd level spell and/or effect that gives, at best, a 75% chance of survival... that would be worth, to me, at LEAST 3 times the price. I'd call it somewhere between 6 and 8k, given the massively useful size bonuses to various maneuvers. When a check is based on a stat instead of an attack, like trip, even a +4 bonus is HUGE.
Bhaal006 03-09-07, 09:35 PM	You know what, just keep cheating your PC's out of GP for items that are at the most moderately useful in one sitation.
Nezkrul 03-09-07, 09:45 PM	No spells required, only a few skill checks. A simple Spellcraft DC 21 will identify the Enlarge Person spell in effect This is completely false. If it were true, then there would be no point to Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, or Greater Arcane Sight.
primemover003 03-09-07, 10:59 PM	This is completely false. If it were true, then there would be no point to Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, or Greater Arcane Sight. There's plenty of uses for all of those spells. Enlarge person just happens to be a spell with a fairly visible effect. Like I said before an Enlarged human is not a Giant. If I wanted to know whether it was Enlarge Person or Righteous Might however I'd need the Detect Magic to determine the School and Strength, but I could tell it was one or the other effects just by looking as a trained and learned spellcaster. SPELLCRAFT (INT; TRAINED ONLY) Use this skill to identify spells as they are cast or spells already in place. Spellcraft DC Task 13 When using read magic, identify a glyph of warding. No action required. 15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry. 15 + spell level Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Spellcraft (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from). Requires 8 hours. 15 + spell level Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook (wizard only). One try per day. No extra time required. 15 + spell level When casting detect magic, determine the school of magic involved in the aura of a single item or creature you can see. (If the aura is not a spell effect, the DC is 15 + one-half caster level.) No action required. 19 When using read magic, identify a symbol. No action required. 20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry. 20 + spell level Identify materials created or shaped by magic, such as noting that an iron wall is the result of a wall of iron spell. No action required. No retry. 20 + spell level Decipher a written spell (such as a scroll) without using read magic. One try per day. Requires a full-round action. 25 + spell level After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry. 25 Identify a potion. Requires 1 minute. No retry. 20 Draw a diagram to allow dimensional anchor to be cast on a magic circle spell. Requires 10 minutes. No retry. This check is made secretly so you do not know the result. 30 or higher Understand a strange or unique magical effect, such as the effects of a magic stream. Time required varies. No retry. Check: You can identify spells and magic effects. The DCs for Spellcraft checks relating to various tasks are summarized on the table above. Action: Varies, as noted above. Try Again: See above. Special: If you are a specialist wizard, you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks when dealing with a spell or effect from your specialty school. You take a –5 penalty when dealing with a spell or effect from a prohibited school (and some tasks, such as learning a prohibited spell, are just impossible). If you have the Magical Aptitude feat, you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks. Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks. If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Magic Device, you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to decipher spells on scrolls. If you have 5 or more ranks in Spellcraft, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls. Additionally, certain spells allow you to gain information about magic, provided that you make a successful Spellcraft check as detailed in the spell description.
Pajaul 03-10-07, 01:50 AM	Power word: INUK CHUK!