Belt that casts Repair Moderate Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Belt that casts Repair Moderate Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HomelessCaptain
12-07-06, 02:58 AM I was asking this in a different forum but I think the question belongs here with Equipment. I have a level 6 wizard Warforged.

I want to make a shirt or belt that casts Repair Moderate Damage. I think it's 2 (spell level) x 3 (caster level) x 1,800 (command word) x 1 (5 divided by 5 charges per day)
Does that come out to 10,800g? And then if I made it myself, could it be 5,400g and 432 XP?

This way I can repair myself without using up spell slots. But I don't know if this is legal or not. I just learned about Item creation today. If it IS legal, I could repair myself 2d8+3 five times a day. That's 25 to 95 damage repaired daily! Is it legal though?
MareltEkiran
12-07-06, 03:43 AM I believe your calculations for the price are correct, except for one possible point, which I will adress later.

As for the legality... The item creation guidelines are just guidelines and when it comes to allowing or disallowing a magic item, the DM has the final word. People have designed completely idiotic things with those rules, such as the Sword of True Strike (+20 to all attack rolls for 8000 gp), but this doesn't seem to be one of them. In terms of game balance, I see no reason why your DM shouldn't allow this item.

After all, for 4500 gold, you could have bought a wand of Repair Moderate Damage, which gives you 50 charges of the same spell. Granted, a wand doesn't last forever, but 50 charges at level 6 will get you through quite a few adventures... so the expense of 4500 gold every now and then wouldn't have been a big deal.
With this item, you make a one-time payment of more than twice that amount to make sure that you don't have to buy wands anymore... with the limitation of lesser charges per day. On average, you'll get about 60 HP per day out of your belt, which hardly seems gamebreaking at level 6, when a cleric should be using wands for backup healing.

One thing to remember to make it run smoothly: it takes a standard action to activite the thing, which can cost valuable time in a heated battle, if you really need the healing.

The only limitation that your DM might be justified in applying is because you can always wear the belt and have it ready, whereas healing items normally need to be drawn or taken out of bags for usage. For that reason, he could enforce the 50% increase in cost for "uncostumary body slots" (given that healing items are usually not worn on the body at all), which would increase the price to 16,200 gp or 8,100 gp and 648 XP for crafting. But once again, that's up to the DM to decide.
risner
12-07-06, 03:15 PM Does that come out to 10,800g? And then if I made it myself, could it be 5,400g and 432 XP?

That's 25 to 95 damage repaired daily! Is it legal though?

Ioun stone costs 20,000 gp and heals a maximum of 24 hp a day, one every hour. By what justification do you see this item costing half as much and healing 4 times as much on command?

By the guidelines you need to find similar items. Ioun Stone and Ring of Regenerate are the only similar items. The price of this 5/day belt should be in between those two items.

I would put it in the 40,000 to 50,000 gp range to be fair.

It is my understanding that Warforge take half from healing and full from repair spells? This might even increase the cost closer to 60,000 to 70,000 gp.
Loki5654
12-07-06, 03:19 PM SL x CL x 1800
2 x 3 x 1800 = 8400

Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)
5/5 = 1

8400/1 = 8400

Market Price = 8400
Cost to Create = 4200gp and 336xp

5/day = 2d8+3

Not too bad using the equations. If I were your DM, I'd allow it.
HomelessCaptain
12-07-06, 04:29 PM Ioun stone costs 20,000 gp and heals a maximum of 24 hp a day, one every hour. By what justification do you see this item costing half as much and healing 4 times as much on command?

The Ioun stone doesn't take up a body slot, so you could get as many as affordable. But this would take up a body slot.

What does "on command" mean? Does it take a standard action to use the belt? Or do I just Think and it heals me? Or do I have to say a word?

Also, would the repair moderate damage work on other things? Or is only self?
Loki5654
12-07-06, 05:50 PM Ioun stone costs 20,000 gp and heals a maximum of 24 hp a day, one every hour. By what justification do you see this item costing half as much and healing 4 times as much on command?

By the guidelines you need to find similar items. Ioun Stone and Ring of Regenerate are the only similar items. The price of this 5/day belt should be in between those two items.

I would put it in the 40,000 to 50,000 gp range to be fair.

It is my understanding that Warforge take half from healing and full from repair spells? This might even increase the cost closer to 60,000 to 70,000 gp.
While I normally agree with you on item pricing things, Ris, I think there are a few mitigating factors here:
1. Command word activation. So it takes a standard action.
2. Belt slot. Unlike the Ioun stone, the belt takes up a slot and fits the concept of "belts = body enhancement" slot affinity.
3. I guess I envisioned it as self-only. While that's not in the equation anywhere, such a limitation would make sense for the price.
MareltEkiran
12-07-06, 09:02 PM In all fairness, I always thought that those regeneration items are ridiculously overpriced. Especially if you take into consideration how much mileage you can get out of a relatively cheap wand.

There are plenty of cheap items that mimic second level spells, either through some uses per day or permanently. No one ever makes a problem about those. So why are we complaining about an item that casts a healing spell a few times per day when you can get a ring that casts invisibility (often considered one of the best second level spells around) at will.
risner
12-07-06, 10:23 PM The Ioun stone doesn't take up a body slot, so you could get as many as affordable. But this would take up a body slot.

I'd rule they wouldn't stack, so you have a max of 1 hp per hour.

Loki's comments:
1) This is a blessing and a cost. Blessing because you can get your full day's healing in 5 sequential rounds. It is a cost because it burns a standard action.
2) Point, that would make it it 20,000 to 25,000 gp or 30,000 to 35,000 gp for my prices.
3) I never said it, but I also thought of it as self only.
Mystyc
12-08-06, 02:12 AM There is a helm in the Miniatures Handbook that casts cure critical wounds for 4d8+7 hit points once per day. It costs 5,600 gp. Strictly in terms of the amount of healing put out, your five-times-a-day, 2d8+3-healing item would cost about 15,000 gp.

If you go formulaic, the Helm of Glorious Recovery runs (4 x 7 x 200). This item would be (2 x 3 x 200 x 5), which is only 6,000 gp.

As a DM, I'd be more inclined towards the first price. This seems like a case where the effect produced should be weighed heavier than just the spell required to produce it -- same as with true strike and its +20 insight bonus.
MareltEkiran
12-08-06, 02:47 AM The correct formula for that helmet would be:

(4 x 7 x 1,800)/5 = 10,080 gp

So I don't know where they got 5,600 from. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time that the Miniatures Handbook makes up its own rules.

But looking at the amount of healing in sheer terms of HP, healing becomes relatively more expensive as the level of the healing spell goes up. This is because higher level healing spells allow for more healing in one standard action, which can be crucial during a fight.

I still say that if the OP can't have the item he proposed, he should just get a wand of repair moderate damage and get just as much benefit for probably less money.
Mystyc
12-08-06, 03:14 AM The correct formula for that helmet would be:
Which assumes that the formula is correct in the first place, which is why we're having this thread, amiright? The formula shouldn't be the first choice -- it should be the last choice.

The first choice should be the bonus or effect granted, and the second choice should be precedent, both of which bring us back to the helm and about 15k. As you say, though, the healing per action should have some impact, so I have no issue with 12k or so.
risner
12-08-06, 11:01 AM The correct formula for that helmet would be:

(4 x 7 x 1,800)/5 = 10,080 gp

False, you can say you think it should be that formula. But that isn't the correct formula, at least not if you use the DMG as reference.

That helmet is 1/day, self only, and requires 24 hours to attune to the wearer.

Do we need to double the cost of the Cure item to get to a fair price for a Repair item? Am I correct in thinking Repaired hps are worth twice Cured hps for a Warforged or am I confused? I thought Warforged (never played Eb) took only half the hp from Conjuration (Healing) spells?

If that were true, that would put the 5/day 2d8+3 healing around 26,800 gp self only and 24 hour attune time.
Mystyc
12-08-06, 11:49 AM Do we need to double the cost of the Cure item to get to a fair price for a Repair item? Am I correct in thinking Repaired hps are worth twice Cured hps for a Warforged or am I confused? I thought Warforged (never played Eb) took only half the hp from Conjuration (Healing) spells?

If that were true, that would put the 5/day 2d8+3 healing around 26,800 gp self only and 24 hour attune time.

It's true that normal healing is only half effective, but I don't think that means doubling the cost. If anything, it should reduce the cost, as it basically makes it a Warforged-only item.
Merestil Haye
12-08-06, 11:56 AM Do we need to double the cost of the Cure item to get to a fair price for a Repair item?No. Why should Warforged be penalised for being Warforged? It would be more accurate to say that to a Warforged, the market price of a Cure item is half the value to a normal living creature.

Am I correct in thinking Repaired hps are worth twice Cured hps for a Warforged or am I confused? I thought Warforged (never played Eb) took only half the hp from Conjuration (Healing) spells?They do, but that should not be an excuse for punishing the Warforged player for finding ways round his limits.

I would say that you determine the price of a regular healing item with exactly the same specifications that casts the equivalent Cure spell, and use that as the base price for the Repair spell item.

Any "increase" you might want to apply can be more than offset by reductions because the item is useless to anything but a living construct.

Using the formula we get 10,800 for a 5-use-per-day belt. I'd be inclined to impose uncustomary slot penalty, so that's 16,200. That would make it viable for 9th level play, affordable for 11th. At 11th level, the belt should not be able to replenish all the character's hp (the average daily heal would be 40) unless his con is merely average.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HomelessCaptain 12-07-06, 02:58 AM	I was asking this in a different forum but I think the question belongs here with Equipment. I have a level 6 wizard Warforged. I want to make a shirt or belt that casts Repair Moderate Damage. I think it's 2 (spell level) x 3 (caster level) x 1,800 (command word) x 1 (5 divided by 5 charges per day) Does that come out to 10,800g? And then if I made it myself, could it be 5,400g and 432 XP? This way I can repair myself without using up spell slots. But I don't know if this is legal or not. I just learned about Item creation today. If it IS legal, I could repair myself 2d8+3 five times a day. That's 25 to 95 damage repaired daily! Is it legal though?
MareltEkiran 12-07-06, 03:43 AM	I believe your calculations for the price are correct, except for one possible point, which I will adress later. As for the legality... The item creation guidelines are just guidelines and when it comes to allowing or disallowing a magic item, the DM has the final word. People have designed completely idiotic things with those rules, such as the Sword of True Strike (+20 to all attack rolls for 8000 gp), but this doesn't seem to be one of them. In terms of game balance, I see no reason why your DM shouldn't allow this item. After all, for 4500 gold, you could have bought a wand of Repair Moderate Damage, which gives you 50 charges of the same spell. Granted, a wand doesn't last forever, but 50 charges at level 6 will get you through quite a few adventures... so the expense of 4500 gold every now and then wouldn't have been a big deal. With this item, you make a one-time payment of more than twice that amount to make sure that you don't have to buy wands anymore... with the limitation of lesser charges per day. On average, you'll get about 60 HP per day out of your belt, which hardly seems gamebreaking at level 6, when a cleric should be using wands for backup healing. One thing to remember to make it run smoothly: it takes a standard action to activite the thing, which can cost valuable time in a heated battle, if you really need the healing. The only limitation that your DM might be justified in applying is because you can always wear the belt and have it ready, whereas healing items normally need to be drawn or taken out of bags for usage. For that reason, he could enforce the 50% increase in cost for "uncostumary body slots" (given that healing items are usually not worn on the body at all), which would increase the price to 16,200 gp or 8,100 gp and 648 XP for crafting. But once again, that's up to the DM to decide.
risner 12-07-06, 03:15 PM	Does that come out to 10,800g? And then if I made it myself, could it be 5,400g and 432 XP? That's 25 to 95 damage repaired daily! Is it legal though? Ioun stone costs 20,000 gp and heals a maximum of 24 hp a day, one every hour. By what justification do you see this item costing half as much and healing 4 times as much on command? By the guidelines you need to find similar items. Ioun Stone and Ring of Regenerate are the only similar items. The price of this 5/day belt should be in between those two items. I would put it in the 40,000 to 50,000 gp range to be fair. It is my understanding that Warforge take half from healing and full from repair spells? This might even increase the cost closer to 60,000 to 70,000 gp.
Loki5654 12-07-06, 03:19 PM	SL x CL x 1800 2 x 3 x 1800 = 8400 Divide by (5 divided by charges per day) 5/5 = 1 8400/1 = 8400 Market Price = 8400 Cost to Create = 4200gp and 336xp 5/day = 2d8+3 Not too bad using the equations. If I were your DM, I'd allow it.
HomelessCaptain 12-07-06, 04:29 PM	Ioun stone costs 20,000 gp and heals a maximum of 24 hp a day, one every hour. By what justification do you see this item costing half as much and healing 4 times as much on command? The Ioun stone doesn't take up a body slot, so you could get as many as affordable. But this would take up a body slot. What does "on command" mean? Does it take a standard action to use the belt? Or do I just Think and it heals me? Or do I have to say a word? Also, would the repair moderate damage work on other things? Or is only self?
Loki5654 12-07-06, 05:50 PM	Ioun stone costs 20,000 gp and heals a maximum of 24 hp a day, one every hour. By what justification do you see this item costing half as much and healing 4 times as much on command? By the guidelines you need to find similar items. Ioun Stone and Ring of Regenerate are the only similar items. The price of this 5/day belt should be in between those two items. I would put it in the 40,000 to 50,000 gp range to be fair. It is my understanding that Warforge take half from healing and full from repair spells? This might even increase the cost closer to 60,000 to 70,000 gp. While I normally agree with you on item pricing things, Ris, I think there are a few mitigating factors here: 1. Command word activation. So it takes a standard action. 2. Belt slot. Unlike the Ioun stone, the belt takes up a slot and fits the concept of "belts = body enhancement" slot affinity. 3. I guess I envisioned it as self-only. While that's not in the equation anywhere, such a limitation would make sense for the price.
MareltEkiran 12-07-06, 09:02 PM	In all fairness, I always thought that those regeneration items are ridiculously overpriced. Especially if you take into consideration how much mileage you can get out of a relatively cheap wand. There are plenty of cheap items that mimic second level spells, either through some uses per day or permanently. No one ever makes a problem about those. So why are we complaining about an item that casts a healing spell a few times per day when you can get a ring that casts invisibility (often considered one of the best second level spells around) at will.
risner 12-07-06, 10:23 PM	The Ioun stone doesn't take up a body slot, so you could get as many as affordable. But this would take up a body slot. I'd rule they wouldn't stack, so you have a max of 1 hp per hour. Loki's comments: 1) This is a blessing and a cost. Blessing because you can get your full day's healing in 5 sequential rounds. It is a cost because it burns a standard action. 2) Point, that would make it it 20,000 to 25,000 gp or 30,000 to 35,000 gp for my prices. 3) I never said it, but I also thought of it as self only.
Mystyc 12-08-06, 02:12 AM	There is a helm in the Miniatures Handbook that casts cure critical wounds for 4d8+7 hit points once per day. It costs 5,600 gp. Strictly in terms of the amount of healing put out, your five-times-a-day, 2d8+3-healing item would cost about 15,000 gp. If you go formulaic, the Helm of Glorious Recovery runs (4 x 7 x 200). This item would be (2 x 3 x 200 x 5), which is only 6,000 gp. As a DM, I'd be more inclined towards the first price. This seems like a case where the effect produced should be weighed heavier than just the spell required to produce it -- same as with true strike and its +20 insight bonus.
MareltEkiran 12-08-06, 02:47 AM	The correct formula for that helmet would be: (4 x 7 x 1,800)/5 = 10,080 gp So I don't know where they got 5,600 from. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time that the Miniatures Handbook makes up its own rules. But looking at the amount of healing in sheer terms of HP, healing becomes relatively more expensive as the level of the healing spell goes up. This is because higher level healing spells allow for more healing in one standard action, which can be crucial during a fight. I still say that if the OP can't have the item he proposed, he should just get a wand of repair moderate damage and get just as much benefit for probably less money.
Mystyc 12-08-06, 03:14 AM	The correct formula for that helmet would be: Which assumes that the formula is correct in the first place, which is why we're having this thread, amiright? The formula shouldn't be the first choice -- it should be the last choice. The first choice should be the bonus or effect granted, and the second choice should be precedent, both of which bring us back to the helm and about 15k. As you say, though, the healing per action should have some impact, so I have no issue with 12k or so.
risner 12-08-06, 11:01 AM	The correct formula for that helmet would be: (4 x 7 x 1,800)/5 = 10,080 gp False, you can say you think it should be that formula. But that isn't the correct formula, at least not if you use the DMG as reference. That helmet is 1/day, self only, and requires 24 hours to attune to the wearer. Do we need to double the cost of the Cure item to get to a fair price for a Repair item? Am I correct in thinking Repaired hps are worth twice Cured hps for a Warforged or am I confused? I thought Warforged (never played Eb) took only half the hp from Conjuration (Healing) spells? If that were true, that would put the 5/day 2d8+3 healing around 26,800 gp self only and 24 hour attune time.
Mystyc 12-08-06, 11:49 AM	Do we need to double the cost of the Cure item to get to a fair price for a Repair item? Am I correct in thinking Repaired hps are worth twice Cured hps for a Warforged or am I confused? I thought Warforged (never played Eb) took only half the hp from Conjuration (Healing) spells? If that were true, that would put the 5/day 2d8+3 healing around 26,800 gp self only and 24 hour attune time. It's true that normal healing is only half effective, but I don't think that means doubling the cost. If anything, it should reduce the cost, as it basically makes it a Warforged-only item.
Merestil Haye 12-08-06, 11:56 AM	Do we need to double the cost of the Cure item to get to a fair price for a Repair item?No. Why should Warforged be penalised for being Warforged? It would be more accurate to say that to a Warforged, the market price of a Cure item is half the value to a normal living creature. Am I correct in thinking Repaired hps are worth twice Cured hps for a Warforged or am I confused? I thought Warforged (never played Eb) took only half the hp from Conjuration (Healing) spells?They do, but that should not be an excuse for punishing the Warforged player for finding ways round his limits. I would say that you determine the price of a regular healing item with exactly the same specifications that casts the equivalent Cure spell, and use that as the base price for the Repair spell item. Any "increase" you might want to apply can be more than offset by reductions because the item is useless to anything but a living construct. Using the formula we get 10,800 for a 5-use-per-day belt. I'd be inclined to impose uncustomary slot penalty, so that's 16,200. That would make it viable for 9th level play, affordable for 11th. At 11th level, the belt should not be able to replenish all the character's hp (the average daily heal would be 40) unless his con is merely average.