Post/Author/DateTime	Post
malignor 08-08-07, 04:34 PM	It's amazing that in the SRD alone you can come up with some tasty concoctions like this. I've been toying with the TWF:2HF+IUS combo for awhile now, and after staring at the Monk I think I may have found the golden balance for a level 20 build. = = = = = = = = Quarterstaff as 2-handed +17/17/17/12/7/2 (1d6+1.5xSTR), plus Unarmed +17/12/7 (2d6+STR) Class: Monk12/Warriorclass8 Feats Required: TWF, ITWF and GTWF Abilities Requires: DEX19 Example: Fred the Frenzy (LN Monk12/Ftr8) - no racial mods abilities (32 point buy): Str14, Dex19, Con14, Int14, Wis14, Cha10 hitdice: 12d8+8d10+40 BAB: +17 Saves: +16F/+14R/+12W; +2 vs. enchantments Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, 3 Monk Bonus feats, 1 Fighter Bonus Feat, 7 base HD feats (16 total); Fred took Stunning Fist (Fort 17), Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip for Monk feats, as well as the Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack chain, Blindfighting, Weapon Focus, Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus in the Quarterstaff, and Weapon Finesse for more accurate unarmed strikes. Skills: 90 Monk skill points, 32 Fighter skill points. Definitely put 5+ ranks in tumble and jump. Proficiencies: All simple weapons, all martial weapons, all exotic monk weapons, all armor, all shields including tower shields Special: Unarmed Strike (2d6), Monk AC Bonus (+4), Unarmored Speed Bonus (+40'), Flurry of Blows, Evasion, Still Mind, Ki Strike (magic, lawful), Slow Fall (60'), Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body (24hp), Improved Evasion, Diamond Body, Greater Flurry, Abundant Step Fred's magic weapon is a Quarterstaff +4 of Defending, Ghost Touch and Wounding on one end, and a Quarterstaff +1 on the other. For ranged combat he relies on a Sling +1 for far range, and a quartet of Darts +1 of Seeking and Returning for up close. He wears Bracers of Armor +6, a ring of Protection +3, a Cloak of Greater Displacement and a Pariapt of Wisdom +6, and Gloves of Dexterity +6, adding 15 to his AC (total AC 33: 7monk, 7dex, 6armor, 3deflect) and providing a 50% miss chance. Winged Boots provide further mobility, and his Helm of Telepathy is handy to have. Lastly are his Belt of Giant Strength +6 and Ring of Freedom of Movement, which make him hard to pin down. Fred's character sheet has the following attack modes: Weaponless: +24/24/24/19/14/9 (2d6+5) [just in case, or in grapple; 1:1 PwerAtt, use for spring-attack tripping] Staff as 2-handed: +28/28/28/23/18/13 (1d6+11+1Con) [high AC or high DR enemies; 2:1 PwrAtt; use w/ spring attack] 2WF: +26/26/26/21/16/11 as 2h-staff, plus +22/17/12 as unarmed [not for use vs special DR; best against prone foes w/ PwrAtt on] All Damage, no style: +5/+5/+5/+0/-5/-10 (1d6+45+1Con), plus +1/-4/-9 (2d6+22) [when AC is just too high, or debuffed to uselessness, go for the natural 20; +3 to AC for fighting defensively] Tear Down the Walls: +19/19/19/14/9/4 (1d6+25+1Con), plus +15/+10/+5 (2d6+12) Delaying The Enemy: +18/18/18/13/8/3 as 2h-staff, plus +18/13/8 as unarmed [use to get alot of strike rolls while maxing out AC; defending + defensively w/ tumble means +7 AC... AC 40] = = = = = = = = = Keep in mind this is SRD only. I'm not trying to go all-out on optimization. I just wanna SRD-on-optimized build, with the sort of gear that can actually be acquired in a campaign setting. After all, in most games it's only the build you can control. Anyone wanna top that? Critique that? [b]EDIT1: As per the notes in Flurry of Blows ("The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows."), I switched Scythe out for Quarterstaff (wielded as a 2-handed weapon). EDIT2: Since the quarterstaff is applicable for flurry, moved the extra attacks from Flurry out of unarmed and into quarterstaff. EDIT3: Whoops! Errata - had 1 too many attacks in the off-hand attacks. EDIT4: Reduced quarterstaff weapon damage by 2 points as per flurry of blows ("When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1˝ or ×˝) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands.")
tarkin 08-08-07, 05:41 PM	No you may not use your monk weapon as your twf weapon and also use flurry. You have to do it the other way around. Each TWF feat grants you a SINGLE extra attack, it does not let you do anything funky like Flurry on your TWF. You can however use monk unarmed as your primary weapon, getting only three attacks from twf, itwf and gtwf with your two handed weapon In addition, the TWF penalties DO apply to EVERYTHING, including the flurry. That is: bab is 17 (Not including magic, strength bonus to hit, etc.) Just counting the TWF feats, flurry and your BAB: you get your 15/15/15/10/4 with the monk attacks, getting x1 strength to damage You get your 15/10/4 with your two handed weapon, The strength bonus to damage is argueable. If you follow the reasoning in the FAQ you get x0.5 strength because it is an off hand weapon, regardless of the fact that it is being held in two hands. ----------- P.S. you seem to be doing the typial obsession with hitpoint damage. Forget damage. You want to pull the "I got so many attacks" bit you need to go for: Trip, disarm, sunder, etc. Leave them crying on the floor with their magic weapon in your hand and their spare weapon in shards.
Novacat 08-08-07, 06:54 PM	Actually, this build looks kinda weak, as far as damage output. While I'm in too much of a hurry to calculate everything myself right now, I'm pretty sure you have too many attacks listed, just from a glance. At level 20, a 33 AC is "whatever" at best, and your bonuses to hit are nothing to scream about.
malignor 08-08-07, 10:08 PM	No you may not use your monk weapon as your twf weapon and also use flurry. Actually, you were being generous. I looked it up... as long as you're using a non-specialMonkWeapon, you cannot use Flurry. I edited Fred above.In addition, the TWF penalties DO apply to EVERYTHING, including the flurry.Already applied. Keep in mind, though, by Monk11, your penalty to flurries is zero. The strength bonus to damage is argueable. If you follow the reasoning in the FAQ you get x0.5 strength because it is an off hand weapon, regardless of the fact that it is being held in two hands.In order to keep the penalties to TWF to -2/-2, you need a light off-handed weapon (and unarmed strikes always count as light (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting)). The beauty is that a quarterstaff (which is a special monk weapon) can be used as a 2-handed weapon for primary (and benefit from flurry) and unarmed strikes can be the light off-hand weapon.P.S. you seem to be doing the typial obsession with hitpoint damage. Forget damage. You want to pull the "I got so many attacks" bit you need to go for: Trip, disarm, sunder, etc. Leave them crying on the floor with their magic weapon in your hand and their spare weapon in shards.Believe me, I'm concerned with both. This design is my answer to the statement of... "I want it all - high damage from 2handed weapons, AND many attacks from TWF" The higher BAB (+17) gives that 4th attack. The TWF chain turns 4 attacks into 7 The flurry (Monk1) and greater flurry (Monk11) adds 2 more attacks, as long as you only use a restricted set of weapons. 7 attacks becomes 9 attacks. The 2-handed wielding of the staff provides 2:1 power attack ratio, and unarmed off-hand provides 1:1 power attack ratio, allowing for very high damage against a weakened foe Stunning Fist and Improved Trip provide the means to drop a foe's effectiveness and AC, providing an opening to unleash hell via the Power Attack bonuses mentioned above. Using a 2-handed weapon (quarterstaff) makes Spring Attack + Improved Trip + Power Attack synergize beautifully. Zip to and fro with a PwrAtt-charged spring attacking Trip attempt (only need to hit the touch AC, so PA is worthwhile) until you trip successfully, then get your free attack, which is obviously done by the PA-enriched quarterstaff. If an opponent is flanked, stunned or tripped, drop the Spring Attack and go in for the kill with full attacks (as long as you're not charging toward an obviously more deadly opponent)
JadeSpider9643 08-09-07, 12:49 AM	I think your confused about your options regarding TWF and THF. TWF grants extra attacks yes...but they must be made with your off-hand weapon. Or in the case of a double weapon, with the "other" end. If you wield a double weapon as a quarterstaff as a Two-handed weapon you can not use it as a double weapon in the same round. A monk flurrying with TWF looks something like this... 4 attacks from BAB - made either with monk unarmed damage or monk special weapon in the main hand for 1xSTR damage (upto) 3 off-hand attacks from TWF - "there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk fighting unarmed" (from the Monk's Unarmed Strike entry) so these attacks must be made with monk special weapons as off-hand attacks doing .5xSTR damage 2 extra attacks from flurry - these are similar to the BAB attacks, you can use unarmed or special weapon damage and get 1xSTR damage And of course be careful noting which attacks go in which order and with which BAB
Ashen_Child 08-09-07, 03:35 AM	Flurry always deals damage as 1 handed, even for 2 handed weapons
malignor 08-09-07, 11:07 AM	Flurry always deals damage as 1 handed, even for 2 handed weaponsLuckily, the 2:1 ratio for Power Attack still works in favor of 2-handed weapons.
Steely_Dan 08-09-07, 11:21 AM	Now that we have 3 conflicting sources (PHB, FAQ, RotG) on how flurry, unarmed strikes, TWF and natural weapons work together… …I think one of these is kosher… 18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting, Multiattack and a 10 Str: Full Attack Unarmed strike +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 with flurry of blows and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and 4 claws +13 bite +13 19 attacks per round. or: Full Attack Unarmed strike +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 with flurry of blows and kama +13/+8/+3 and kama +13/+8/+3 and kama +13/+8/+3 and bite +13 15 attacks per round.
Hsien 08-09-07, 11:41 AM	iirc, Non-Psionic Thri-kreen have a LA +3 So that would be a lvl 17 Monk, if that makes any difference
Steely_Dan 08-09-07, 11:45 AM	iirc, Non-Psionic Thri-kreen have a LA +3 So that would be a lvl 17 Monk, if that makes any difference I'm using the psionic one (LA +2) and the LA buy off rules from UA.
Hsien 08-09-07, 11:58 AM	Psionic on is +6 LA per the MM. I'm not that familiar with the LA buy off rules, so I'll just assume that takes it to the noted +2. Thanks for clarifying
Steely_Dan 08-09-07, 12:04 PM	Psionic on is +6 LA per the MM. No it isn't, and the thri-kreen is not in the MM. It has 2 racial HD and a LA +2, for a beginning ECL of 4.
zorgling25 08-09-07, 12:17 PM	Luckily, the 2:1 ratio for Power Attack still works in favor of 2-handed weapons. You can't use a weapon 2-handed and then also gain off-hand attacks through the TWF line of feats.
Steely_Dan 08-09-07, 12:22 PM	You can't use a weapon 2-handed and then also gain off-hand attacks through the TWF line of feats. Yes you can - armour spikes/unarmed strikes.
zorgling25 08-09-07, 12:34 PM	Yes you can - armour spikes/unarmed strikes. Armor spikes only apply on a grapple, and IIRC you can't use a 2-handed weapon in a grapple. Though I didn't know that you can take off-hand unarmed strikes while wielding a 2-handed weapon.
Steely_Dan 08-09-07, 12:41 PM	Armor spikes only apply on a grapple No they don't, you can make an off-hand attack with armour spikes in addition to attacking with a 2-handed weapon. Ask around the boards.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-09-07, 01:07 PM	No need to ask around the boards, ask the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#spikedArmor).
tarkin 08-09-07, 01:20 PM	Armor spikes only apply on a grapple, and IIRC you can't use a 2-handed weapon in a grapple. Though I didn't know that you can take off-hand unarmed strikes while wielding a 2-handed weapon. While I agree that armor spikes SHOULD only apply on a grapple, the rules/FAQ says otherwise. Officially Armor Spikes can be used to attack anyone within your unarmed reach. That means 5ft away. Yeah, this means that armor spikes shold be at least 2 1/2 ft long. As in a freakin HUGE porcupine. Yeah this is silly But it is official rules.
Hsien 08-09-07, 02:37 PM	No it isn't, and the thri-kreen is not in the MM. It has 2 racial HD and a LA +2, for a beginning ECL of 4. It's MM II it's been a little while since I looked. Non-Psionic have a +3 LA ( 1st lvl Monk = ECL 4 ) They even give an example of a lvl 1 TK Ranger as an example...and Psionic TK are LA +5 ( 1 Monk = ECL 6 ) I ever been overly fond for the rules on Armor spikes either but as Tarkin indicated its the rules and there are several rules that don't make sense, to me anyway, but for game mechanics/balance I can just accept.
DrRufio 08-09-07, 02:50 PM	Yeah, this means that armor spikes shold be at least 2 1/2 ft long. As in a freakin HUGE porcupine. Armor spikes aren't just on your chest. Think kneeing and kicking.
malignor 08-09-07, 04:07 PM	Yeah. Aint it funny how people don't question 5' reach for medium bite attacks, but a spiked shin, gauntlet or forearm is considered "unrealistic." Some ppl like that in my group too.
Nephlite 08-09-07, 07:12 PM	While I agree that armor spikes SHOULD only apply on a grapple, the rules/FAQ says otherwise. Officially Armor Spikes can be used to attack anyone within your unarmed reach. That means 5ft away. Yeah, this means that armor spikes shold be at least 2 1/2 ft long. As in a freakin HUGE porcupine. Yeah this is silly But it is official rules. Read the Book: Ebberron book Marked For Death: An ememy named Bastard (A Worforged leader) kicks using armor spikes and slam attacks with hands. So I can totally picture it.
StruckingFuggle 08-09-07, 10:32 PM	Armor spikes only apply on a grapple, and IIRC you can't use a 2-handed weapon in a grapple. Though I didn't know that you can take off-hand unarmed strikes while wielding a 2-handed weapon. Well, if you have even one level of monk, you can. At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
runestar 08-10-07, 06:16 AM	Weapon supremacy allows you to still attack with your weapon while grappled, even if that is a 2-handed weapon, IIRC.:)
Steely_Dan 08-10-07, 06:21 AM	Well, if you have even one level of monk, you can. You can regardless of a level of monk.
Kaladon7779 08-10-07, 09:09 AM	Ok I have a question on the Armor Spikes, Tarkin i'm shocked you didn't mention this shame on you. It says, can make a single off hand attack with armor spikes, however, if you have already made an off hand strike you can not strike with your armor spikes. So if your weilding a Two handed weapon then isn't your off hand already considered to be occupied? Also was probably brought up but Two Weapon Fighting does not stack with Flurry of Blows. reason being is Flurry of blows requires a standard action of its own. In order to get the extra attacks from Two Weapon Fighting you have to make a Full round Attack action itself, which you can't do if your already taking a standard action.
Steely_Dan 08-10-07, 09:58 AM	1.) So if your weilding a Two handed weapon then isn't your off hand already considered to be occupied? 2.) Two Weapon Fighting does not stack with Flurry of Blows. 1.) Not when it comes to unarmed strikes and armour spikes – you can make an unarmed strike with any part of your body (flurry of buttocks), and you can kick etc with armour spikes. 2.) Yes it does.
Steely_Dan 08-10-07, 09:59 AM	Flurry of blows requires a standard action Flurry of blows is a full round action.
runestar 08-10-07, 10:09 AM	It says, can make a single off hand attack with armor spikes, however, if you have already made an off hand strike you can not strike with your armor spikes. So if your weilding a Two handed weapon then isn't your off hand already considered to be occupied? Off-hand does not necessarily have to be with your hand. With armour spikes or unarmed strikes, you can designate any part of your body with them. For example, a fighter wielding a greatsword can TWF with his unarmed strikes as his off-hand. Flavourwise, his off-hand unarmed strikes would be made with some other part of his body, perhaps a kick or even a head-butt.
Steely_Dan 08-10-07, 10:14 AM	Off-hand does not necessarily have to be with your hand. With armour spikes or unarmed strikes, you can designate any part of your body with them. For example, a fighter wielding a greatsword can TWF with his unarmed strikes as his off-hand. Flavourwise, his off-hand unarmed strikes would be made with some other part of his body, perhaps a kick or even a head-butt. Read my post above…
MaximumHavoc 08-10-07, 11:22 AM	i am so looking forward to see how wotc rules on all of this. if it is true that (A) you can twf while utilizing a thw; and (B) you can stack twf with flurry of blows, then monks just might have a chance not being the red-headed stepchild of melee.
Steely_Dan 08-10-07, 11:28 AM	i am so looking forward to see how wotc rules on all of this. if it is true that (A) you can twf while utilizing a thw; and (B) you can stack twf with flurry of blows, then monks just might have a chance not being the red-headed stepchild of melee. (A) Yes. (B) Yes.
Kaladon7779 08-10-07, 05:06 PM	Flurry of blows is a full round action. Yeah your right I just looked it up, sorry, for some reason I was thinking Flurry of Blows is a Su.
Kaladon7779 08-10-07, 05:33 PM	How does TWF work with Flurry of Blows? would you still take the -2 penalty on all your attacks including your FoB extra attacks?
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-10-07, 06:43 PM	How does TWF work with Flurry of Blows? would you still take the -2 penalty on all your attacks including your FoB extra attacks? Stacked penalties to all your attacks. -2 from TWF and -2 from FoB (assuming your secondary weaponry is light and you haven't lost any penalties from flurry yet) = -4 penalty on all the attacks in that attack sequence. Also if you want to be stupid you can flurry with shurikens and throw in Rapid Shot for another attack and worse attack roll penalties. :smirk:
EjoThims 08-11-07, 11:08 AM	For pure core, straight 20 monk would be more effective than the opening post, despite getting 8 attacks, not 9. If you're going to add in splatbooks, this really doesn't even compare.
Kaladon7779 08-12-07, 11:15 AM	I have a question about a Warforged Monk, in this case, Since the monks fists are treated as both a weapon and a Natural weapon, could a Warforged Monk still be able to slam as a secondary attack?