Best Dervish Weapon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Dervish Weapon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
b3jsd73jfx
03-10-06, 04:43 AM Alright, my newly created Dervish is looking for some good weaponry. Obviously i'm looking at scimitar for the weapon base, but what are good enhancements for it? Someone mentioned "Scabbard of Keen" or something like that, but they didn't know what book it was from and I can't seem to find. Any ideas would be helpful!
Maxxx
03-10-06, 04:50 AM Scabbard of Keen Edge is in the DMG.
White_Wizard
03-10-06, 05:54 AM Two +4 Defending Speed Scmitars. If you make them +3 you cann add fire damage to one and cold damage to the other (or any elemental combination you like). Take in consideration the chance to have them crafted with silver or cold iron. If you want to be very flexible have a set of three: +3 defending speed flaming cold iron scimitar, +3 defending speed cold silver scimitar and +3 defending speed shocking adamantine scimitar.
Each equipped with a keen edge scabbard.
Pick the Quick Draw feat: you will be able to bypass nearly every DR, elemental resistance and regeneration in game, expecially if you have acces to an align weapon spell. Also the adamantine scimitar cuts through objects like a hot knife cuts soft butter.
Ocom
03-10-06, 06:52 AM Well my DM let me use Great scimitar "SS" as a light weapon. And that was sweeeet.
Basically get a 1h or light slashing weapon and a light weapon (Probably two scimitars). Get some abilities on them and go butcher some goblinoids.
Mo
03-10-06, 11:37 AM I currently have a dervish that uses 2 kukris with keen edge scabbards. Also has 2 levels of barbarian, so pretty neat in combat.
CaiasWard
03-10-06, 11:45 AM Depending on power level of the game, consider the following for now or the future.

1) 2 Wounding weapons. Epecially bastard swords with Oversize Two Weapon Fighting, EWM and Tempest levels

2) 2 Sunblades. See 1, above. Excellent for undead fighting.

3) 1 Wounding and one Mage Bane. Many creatures, especially as you get to higher levels, have some kind of spell-like ability.
Someone
03-10-06, 11:50 AM Don't forget the "vicious" ability. It turns a scimitar's meager 1d6 damage into a nasty 3d6 damage. Okay, so it does damage to you, but you've got hp, right?
JiCi
03-10-06, 12:16 PM Great scimitars from Sandstorm, as well as the great falchion, should follow the new substitution rule presented in Complete Adventurer. Although you need the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, these are the subtitutes of scimitars for feats and, especially, special abilities. So a dervish wielding two great scimitars as light weapons can pack quite a wallop.

Go with 2 adamantine great scimitars, and feel free to add any maigical enhancement you like.
Xaxor
03-10-06, 12:54 PM Take Improved Critical instead of buying three Scabards of Keen Edge. You certainly have the BaB.
Arandar
03-10-06, 01:00 PM Great scimitars from Sandstorm, as well as the great falchion, should follow the new substitution rule presented in Complete Adventurer. Although you need the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, these are the subtitutes of scimitars for feats and, especially, special abilities. So a dervish wielding two great scimitars as light weapons can pack quite a wallop.

Go with 2 adamantine great scimitars, and feel free to add any maigical enhancement you like.

Why make a great Falchion? The regular Falchion is already a 2-handed weapon (if I remember correctly).

And I know the Dervish treats Scimitars as Light weapons, but I don't believe that rule should include the 2-handed weapon versions of the scimitar (even if you use oversized two-weapon fighting).
JiCi
03-10-06, 01:07 PM Why make a great Falchion? The regular Falchion is already a 2-handed weapon (if I remember correctly).

And I know the Dervish treats Scimitars as Light weapons, but I don't believe that rule should include the 2-handed weapon versions of the scimitar (even if you use oversized two-weapon fighting).That was only to point out that BOTH weapons, the great scimitar and the great falchion, should follow the substitution rule. Great scimitars are similar to scimitars and great falchions are similar to falchions (except that both weapons deals damage as one die higher : 1d6 -> 1d8 / 2d4 -> 2d6).

Why would a dervish carry a two-handed exotic weapon anyway ? waste of feat slot, money and space.
Arandar
03-10-06, 01:09 PM Well, doesn't answer my first question about why they made a Great Falchion.

That's like saying "I want to make a Great Greatsword" or a Great Longsword (effectively a Greatsword). How about a Great Maul (why not just size increase the regular maul as per the rules instead of creating an entirely new weapon just because the name half sounds cool?)
Jherid
03-10-06, 01:40 PM I would say something like:

+3 Parrying Metalline Sure Striking Scimitar of Collision and Wounding

+3 Metalline Sure Striking Scimitar of Collsion and Wounding

That's what I'm planning for my Dervish, anyway.

Parrying (XPH)
Metalline (UD)
Sure Striking (PGtF)
Collision (XPH)
Wounding (DMG)
Take Improved Critical instead of buying three Scabards of Keen Edge. You certainly have the BaB.

If you can get an item to avoid having to take a feat you should always go for it. As you tend to have quite a bit more gold than feats. ;)
Judging Eagle
03-10-06, 02:10 PM Plain old Scimitars.

Get yourself a golfbag....

Actually, no, you don't need a large selection of weapon types. Get an adamantine and a cold iron one; make them +1 and start adding +1d6 elemental damage types, since you'll get lots and lots and lots of hits you want them to do lots of damage when they connect.

As for silver, get some vials of Silversheen, much cheaper for when you need it. Only buy a silver weapon if you will face 'lawful' evil outsiders or vamps/lycanthropes a lot.

Silversheen

This substance can be applied to a weapon as a standard action. It will give the weapon the properties of alchemical silver for 1 hour, replacing the properties of any other special material it might have. One vial will coat a single melee weapon or 20 units of ammunition.

Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 250 gp.

Don't use a 'large' weapon, you will lose to-hit, and you need all you can get; Improved Crit will increase your To-Hit since threatening a crit will let you auto-hit. Losing To-Hit means that you're negating your largest asset, lots of hit plus being able to move while attacking.

You may consider taking some levels of Tempest for it's ability to share weapon feats.

Yes, if you have tons and tons of weapon feats and wield a scim in your offhand and say... a Sunsword in your main, you get all of your scim feats (Weapon Foc, Maybe Imp Crit, Power Crit's not bad either etc.) apply to your bastard/shorts-sword that the Sunsword acts like.

Then again, the gestalt character that will use these weapons will also be throwing in god-knows how many sneak-attack/skirmish damage dice.

I think at lvl 5 I'll have +2d6 (1 skirmish, 1 SA) and from then on will be adding an other die every 2 lvls; (3 at 7, 4 at 9, 5 at 11, 6 at 13, 7 at 15, 8 at 17) maxing at +9d6 at 19 (1 skirmish, 8 rogue SA dice); too bad I can't fit in 17 lvls of rogue, but I need 4 of scout to get me the bonus feats I need and I doubt that the DM will let me take both Feat and Sneak-attack Rogue on the same side of a gestalt character.

Myself, when I can 'afford' it in game, I'll prolly go for:

A pair of +1 flaming, frost, shock, magebane, merciful scimitar [+3d6, +5d6 vs arcane magic users; +4d6/+6d6 if I want to just knock them out; which I almost always will, I can Coup De Grace them after the battle or let the other party members finish them off
will cost: +6; 72k each; 144,000 gp for the pair.

Since I'm getting a set of surestriking bracers (Death/Golem/Vine strike at will) precision damage will almost always be availible; except against... oozes.

Going for special materials is nice, but when I've got an about +2d6 up to +15 d6 bonus damage [versus a crittable, arcane magic using, subdual damage affected target] (or about 2-12 up to 15-90; avg: 52.5 bonus damage) versus even a target with 20/X dr the dr won't matter. Then again, when you can threaten to kill a lich, iron golem or trent with massive melee damage several times a round who cares about dr. My DM is going to kill me when he finds out that I can eventually threaten to kill things with massive damage.

However, not everyone runs gestalt games, so the golfbag works for most situations, make your metalline weapons out of Auroum, that stuff re-froms as a free action if ti's broken, or sundered.
Rulebook
03-10-06, 04:57 PM forget the Scimitars...

i find the Glaive to be the best Dervish weapon by a longshot. you can easily dance at reach, do good damage, and dance away, all without having to Tumble or provoke!
Arandar
03-10-06, 06:24 PM Don't use a 'large' weapon, you will lose to-hit, and you need all you can get; Improved Crit will increase your To-Hit since threatening a crit will let you auto-hit. Losing To-Hit means that you're negating your largest asset, lots of hit plus being able to move while attacking.

Uhm, to my knowledge it's only a natural 20 that is an automatic hit, anything below that (even a threat) that doesn't hit the ac or above is useless.
Judging Eagle
03-13-06, 05:40 PM Uhm, to my knowledge it's only a natural 20 that is an automatic hit, anything below that (even a threat) that doesn't hit the ac or above is useless.

Hmm. I'm gonna check that out right now, b/c if that's true then that throws that idea out the window; I think I developled it after reading that a threatened crit was an auto-hit.

Ok, I read the hypertext srd to confirm/disprove and what it says is the following:

A 20 is an auto-hit; and a threatened crit

An 18-20 or 15-20 on a wider threat range weapon must first 'hit' with that total roll then if that wider threat range roll does hit the target's AC you can roll to confirm a crit.

Suddenly that makes wider crit range weapons.... useless compared to the weapons that you'd use instead of them (ie. higher overall damage, but tighter crit range). Then again I guess being able to crit anything with a 18-20 weapon with a 1% chance and a 4% chance with imp crit or keen [15-20 weapon] is pretty handy; and being able to hit anything with a 10% chance with a 18-20 weapon or 25% with a 15-20 weapon does seem like a bit much.

I guess that this makes feats like power critical a lot more important; also, being able to stack Keen and Improved Critical isn't that big of a deal IMO in light of the fact that you have to be able to hit the target before you can roll to confirm the crit (so unless you can hit the target with an 11-20 you can't threaten a crit anyway).

Which brings up a good question, why were Keen and Imp crit stopped from stacking? They just increased odds that you could crit, but nothing else, you still have to hit the target's AC and even if you do you have to roll again to confirm.

Stacking Keen and Imp Crit:
18-20=3
Since the doubling of a number always applies to the base number, not stacks
x2 + x2 = x3
3 x3 = 9
11-20
Judging Eagle
03-13-06, 05:43 PM forget the Scimitars...

i find the Glaive to be the best Dervish weapon by a longshot. you can easily dance at reach, do good damage, and dance away, all without having to Tumble or provoke!

Or, take the Weapon Group (Chains) feat and use a spiked, wieghted and bladed chain to really abuse your dex mod (since all are finessable, or not if you want to be a really high str dervish and rely on the fact that they are all 2H weapons to get more damage done).
Daeger
03-13-06, 08:51 PM Two sacred scabbards from Complete Warrior and Improved Critical (scimitar) is my recommendation for you. If you have two rounds of prep, autocritting 25% of the time against evil creatures is always nice.
ibayboy
03-14-06, 02:24 AM Or, take the Weapon Group (Chains) feat and use a spiked, wieghted and bladed chain to really abuse your dex mod (since all are finessable, or not if you want to be a really high str dervish and rely on the fact that they are all 2H weapons to get more damage done).

Can you tell me which book the weighted and bladed chains are in.

Thanks
Gemcaster
03-14-06, 04:33 AM +2 cold iron brilliant energy flaming burst scimitar(left hand)

+3 adamantine holy thundering bastard sword(right hand)

since dervish treats scimitars as light weapons its better if you only weild one in your off hand for better damage with your main hand by using a more powerful slashing weapon.
Raven113
03-14-06, 11:15 AM +2 cold iron brilliant energy flaming burst scimitar(left hand)

+3 adamantine holy thundering bastard sword(right hand)

since dervish treats scimitars as light weapons its better if you only weild one in your off hand for better damage with your main hand by using a more powerful slashing weapon.
Near true. I agree unless your doing a finesse build (which most dervishes are).
With a 12 in strength (typical mid-level finesse build score) you'll be losing a huge chunk of your to-hit with your main weapon. Even if you try to keep your strength up, it'll still be around six lower than your dex, if it isn't then you should rethink your finesse build.

Just my oppinion.

If you are running a normal strength build, then this configuration is excellent (drop the weapon finesse and grab bastard sword...)

Some books treat Katanas as finesseable, in which case you should consider that as a real option.
Arandar
03-14-06, 11:29 AM Can you finesse the scimitar after it becomes treated as a Light weapon?
yuenglingdragon
03-14-06, 01:20 PM Hells yeah. Thats very nearly the whole point. Sure it helps with TWF but finessing these babies is hard core.
aelryinth
03-14-06, 05:16 PM Just remember that you can't Finesse and Power Attack at the same time. hence why a lot of builds use skirmish dice for the extra zing of dmg.

==Aelryinth
Jherid
03-14-06, 06:22 PM No, you can finesse and power attack at the same time, you just can't power attack with light weapons.
Jaxgaret
03-14-06, 07:20 PM Stacking Keen and Imp Crit:
18-20=3
Since the doubling of a number always applies to the base number, not stacks
x2 + x2 = x3
3 x3 = 9
11-20

12-20.
Judging Eagle
03-14-06, 08:24 PM 12-20.

Thank you.

In any case, Keen and Imp Crit should be stacked, since it doesn't increase chance to hit, just to crit if you do actually hit the target.

The reason they were changed is that most people figure crits wrong; hell even the DMs in Living Greyhawk (who DM tons and tons) have almost all made the assumption that a wider crit range weapon will 'hit' more often.
nodaisho
03-14-06, 11:07 PM keen and imp crit dont stack. I think it is in PHB, if not, it is in DMG.
BjornBSQ
03-15-06, 01:19 AM In any case, Keen and Imp Crit should be stacked, since it doesn't increase chance to hit, just to crit if you do actually hit the target.

I tend to agree with you unfortunately 3.5 Raw has specifically nixed the two stacking. I understand the original reasoning was because of 3.0 Vorpal (Decapitate on any Critical) but then they also fixed Vorpal in 3.5 (decapitate on Nat 20 only)

As to the original question I tend to stay away from Keen and take Blessed instead so that with the Improved Critical feat you have a 18-20 scimitar that auto confirms against evil. And the Power Critical feat helps with any critical reliant build. Then stack wounding and an element as you can afford it.
RavenDrake
03-15-06, 02:59 AM No, you can finesse and power attack at the same time, you just can't power attack with light weapons.

Yes... but if you're treating them as Light weapons to finesse them, then you can't power attack with them, now can you?

As for enhancements:

Wounding should be a priority(especially 3.5 wounding, which is so abusive it's not funny[My opinion only, ymmv]), as should effects that grant extra damage on hits, like the elemental properties.

Adding Thundering is a good choice as well, as the extra damage on a crit(which, with Keen or Improved Critical, you should have lots of) can really add up.
Judging Eagle
03-15-06, 10:43 AM keen and imp crit dont stack. I think it is in PHB, if not, it is in DMG.

It doesn't matter what the Books say on this issue. They are wrong because the rule was changed -after- the problem that the rule was causing was fixed. A double fix does nothing since one problem (broken vorpal) was the real problem, not the smaller problem (K and IC stacking).

The reason they changed them from "Stacking" to "No Stacking" was resolved almost immediatly when they went to 3.5 (Vorpal being broken; to Vorpal on a 20 only) also wider crit ranges mean nothing.

If you can't hit on those lower rolls, you can't crit either. So Imp Crit + Keen means nothing since they don't do anything except increase your odds of getting a crit versus low-AC for your level monsters.

Also, thanks BjornBSQ for naming Blessed... my neutral twf-er will need this to help kill the evil underdark dwellers as well as undead he'll be facing; and eventually his party members when they help the favoured soul become a lich. Hopefully I'll kill the FS first.

Oh, Sacred strike is also nice, makes your SA's d6's d8's vs evil targets.

Yes... but if you're treating them as Light weapons to finesse them, then you can't power attack with them, now can you?

You can't treat them like anything but light weapons, so finessing is in, PAing's out. Dervish 1 = Scimitars effectively are light weapons for you. You can't choose to go back and forth, they're like a dagger or kukri for you now.
aelryinth
03-15-06, 01:56 PM I'll weigh in here once...I'm of the belief that you can always choose not to use a class feature if need be (a Fist of Raziel doesn't HAVE to have every weapon he wields be Holy.)

In the same manner, the Dervish could turn his class ability on or off, in much the same manner as if he didn't qualify for the PrC anymore and lost the class ability.

So he can choose one or the other, not both.

===Aelryinth
Judging Eagle
03-15-06, 03:05 PM I'll weigh in here once...I'm of the belief that you can always choose not to use a class feature if need be (a Fist of Raziel doesn't HAVE to have every weapon he wields be Holy.)

In the same manner, the Dervish could turn his class ability on or off, in much the same manner as if he didn't qualify for the PrC anymore and lost the class ability.

So he can choose one or the other, not both.

===Aelryinth

True, you can't use them as both at the same time. So an str dervish isn't so bad. Power Attacking as a dervish seems sort of useless as a means to get more damage output, better just going for a 2H build instead.
concerro
03-15-06, 04:07 PM Can you finesse the scimitar after it becomes treated as a Light weapon?
yes, weapon finesse can be used with any light weapon
BjornBSQ
03-15-06, 05:33 PM It doesn't matter what the Books say on this issue. They are wrong because the rule was changed -after- the problem that the rule was causing was fixed. A double fix does nothing since one problem (broken vorpal) was the real problem, not the smaller problem (K and IC stacking).

Like I said before, I to think it was a stupid change and if your GM will allow it more power to you. I argued it with my GM and he went with RAW. Not that it mattered much, he changed weapon proficiencys around so I had to give up my Kurki's anyways.

Blessed is a +1 power from BoED pg. 113 and if your DM allows BoED also check out Paralyzing it's a little underpowered since you get to reroll each round to shrug it off, but even 1 round of paralyzation could turn the tide of a fight.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
b3jsd73jfx 03-10-06, 04:43 AM	Alright, my newly created Dervish is looking for some good weaponry. Obviously i'm looking at scimitar for the weapon base, but what are good enhancements for it? Someone mentioned "Scabbard of Keen" or something like that, but they didn't know what book it was from and I can't seem to find. Any ideas would be helpful!
Maxxx 03-10-06, 04:50 AM	Scabbard of Keen Edge is in the DMG.
White_Wizard 03-10-06, 05:54 AM	Two +4 Defending Speed Scmitars. If you make them +3 you cann add fire damage to one and cold damage to the other (or any elemental combination you like). Take in consideration the chance to have them crafted with silver or cold iron. If you want to be very flexible have a set of three: +3 defending speed flaming cold iron scimitar, +3 defending speed cold silver scimitar and +3 defending speed shocking adamantine scimitar. Each equipped with a keen edge scabbard. Pick the Quick Draw feat: you will be able to bypass nearly every DR, elemental resistance and regeneration in game, expecially if you have acces to an align weapon spell. Also the adamantine scimitar cuts through objects like a hot knife cuts soft butter.
Ocom 03-10-06, 06:52 AM	Well my DM let me use Great scimitar "SS" as a light weapon. And that was sweeeet. Basically get a 1h or light slashing weapon and a light weapon (Probably two scimitars). Get some abilities on them and go butcher some goblinoids.
Mo 03-10-06, 11:37 AM	I currently have a dervish that uses 2 kukris with keen edge scabbards. Also has 2 levels of barbarian, so pretty neat in combat.
CaiasWard 03-10-06, 11:45 AM	Depending on power level of the game, consider the following for now or the future. 1) 2 Wounding weapons. Epecially bastard swords with Oversize Two Weapon Fighting, EWM and Tempest levels 2) 2 Sunblades. See 1, above. Excellent for undead fighting. 3) 1 Wounding and one Mage Bane. Many creatures, especially as you get to higher levels, have some kind of spell-like ability.
Someone 03-10-06, 11:50 AM	Don't forget the "vicious" ability. It turns a scimitar's meager 1d6 damage into a nasty 3d6 damage. Okay, so it does damage to you, but you've got hp, right?
JiCi 03-10-06, 12:16 PM	Great scimitars from Sandstorm, as well as the great falchion, should follow the new substitution rule presented in Complete Adventurer. Although you need the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, these are the subtitutes of scimitars for feats and, especially, special abilities. So a dervish wielding two great scimitars as light weapons can pack quite a wallop. Go with 2 adamantine great scimitars, and feel free to add any maigical enhancement you like.
Xaxor 03-10-06, 12:54 PM	Take Improved Critical instead of buying three Scabards of Keen Edge. You certainly have the BaB.
Arandar 03-10-06, 01:00 PM	Great scimitars from Sandstorm, as well as the great falchion, should follow the new substitution rule presented in Complete Adventurer. Although you need the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, these are the subtitutes of scimitars for feats and, especially, special abilities. So a dervish wielding two great scimitars as light weapons can pack quite a wallop. Go with 2 adamantine great scimitars, and feel free to add any maigical enhancement you like. Why make a great Falchion? The regular Falchion is already a 2-handed weapon (if I remember correctly). And I know the Dervish treats Scimitars as Light weapons, but I don't believe that rule should include the 2-handed weapon versions of the scimitar (even if you use oversized two-weapon fighting).
JiCi 03-10-06, 01:07 PM	Why make a great Falchion? The regular Falchion is already a 2-handed weapon (if I remember correctly). And I know the Dervish treats Scimitars as Light weapons, but I don't believe that rule should include the 2-handed weapon versions of the scimitar (even if you use oversized two-weapon fighting).That was only to point out that BOTH weapons, the great scimitar and the great falchion, should follow the substitution rule. Great scimitars are similar to scimitars and great falchions are similar to falchions (except that both weapons deals damage as one die higher : 1d6 -> 1d8 / 2d4 -> 2d6). Why would a dervish carry a two-handed exotic weapon anyway ? waste of feat slot, money and space.
Arandar 03-10-06, 01:09 PM	Well, doesn't answer my first question about why they made a Great Falchion. That's like saying "I want to make a Great Greatsword" or a Great Longsword (effectively a Greatsword). How about a Great Maul (why not just size increase the regular maul as per the rules instead of creating an entirely new weapon just because the name half sounds cool?)
Jherid 03-10-06, 01:40 PM	I would say something like: +3 Parrying Metalline Sure Striking Scimitar of Collision and Wounding +3 Metalline Sure Striking Scimitar of Collsion and Wounding That's what I'm planning for my Dervish, anyway. Parrying (XPH) Metalline (UD) Sure Striking (PGtF) Collision (XPH) Wounding (DMG) Take Improved Critical instead of buying three Scabards of Keen Edge. You certainly have the BaB. If you can get an item to avoid having to take a feat you should always go for it. As you tend to have quite a bit more gold than feats. ;)
Judging Eagle 03-10-06, 02:10 PM	Plain old Scimitars. Get yourself a golfbag.... Actually, no, you don't need a large selection of weapon types. Get an adamantine and a cold iron one; make them +1 and start adding +1d6 elemental damage types, since you'll get lots and lots and lots of hits you want them to do lots of damage when they connect. As for silver, get some vials of Silversheen, much cheaper for when you need it. Only buy a silver weapon if you will face 'lawful' evil outsiders or vamps/lycanthropes a lot. Silversheen This substance can be applied to a weapon as a standard action. It will give the weapon the properties of alchemical silver for 1 hour, replacing the properties of any other special material it might have. One vial will coat a single melee weapon or 20 units of ammunition. Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 250 gp. Don't use a 'large' weapon, you will lose to-hit, and you need all you can get; Improved Crit will increase your To-Hit since threatening a crit will let you auto-hit. Losing To-Hit means that you're negating your largest asset, lots of hit plus being able to move while attacking. You may consider taking some levels of Tempest for it's ability to share weapon feats. Yes, if you have tons and tons of weapon feats and wield a scim in your offhand and say... a Sunsword in your main, you get all of your scim feats (Weapon Foc, Maybe Imp Crit, Power Crit's not bad either etc.) apply to your bastard/shorts-sword that the Sunsword acts like. Then again, the gestalt character that will use these weapons will also be throwing in god-knows how many sneak-attack/skirmish damage dice. I think at lvl 5 I'll have +2d6 (1 skirmish, 1 SA) and from then on will be adding an other die every 2 lvls; (3 at 7, 4 at 9, 5 at 11, 6 at 13, 7 at 15, 8 at 17) maxing at +9d6 at 19 (1 skirmish, 8 rogue SA dice); too bad I can't fit in 17 lvls of rogue, but I need 4 of scout to get me the bonus feats I need and I doubt that the DM will let me take both Feat and Sneak-attack Rogue on the same side of a gestalt character. Myself, when I can 'afford' it in game, I'll prolly go for: A pair of +1 flaming, frost, shock, magebane, merciful scimitar [+3d6, +5d6 vs arcane magic users; +4d6/+6d6 if I want to just knock them out; which I almost always will, I can Coup De Grace them after the battle or let the other party members finish them off will cost: +6; 72k each; 144,000 gp for the pair. Since I'm getting a set of surestriking bracers (Death/Golem/Vine strike at will) precision damage will almost always be availible; except against... oozes. Going for special materials is nice, but when I've got an about +2d6 up to +15 d6 bonus damage [versus a crittable, arcane magic using, subdual damage affected target] (or about 2-12 up to 15-90; avg: 52.5 bonus damage) versus even a target with 20/X dr the dr won't matter. Then again, when you can threaten to kill a lich, iron golem or trent with massive melee damage several times a round who cares about dr. My DM is going to kill me when he finds out that I can eventually threaten to kill things with massive damage. However, not everyone runs gestalt games, so the golfbag works for most situations, make your metalline weapons out of Auroum, that stuff re-froms as a free action if ti's broken, or sundered.
Rulebook 03-10-06, 04:57 PM	forget the Scimitars... i find the Glaive to be the best Dervish weapon by a longshot. you can easily dance at reach, do good damage, and dance away, all without having to Tumble or provoke!
Arandar 03-10-06, 06:24 PM	Don't use a 'large' weapon, you will lose to-hit, and you need all you can get; Improved Crit will increase your To-Hit since threatening a crit will let you auto-hit. Losing To-Hit means that you're negating your largest asset, lots of hit plus being able to move while attacking. Uhm, to my knowledge it's only a natural 20 that is an automatic hit, anything below that (even a threat) that doesn't hit the ac or above is useless.
Judging Eagle 03-13-06, 05:40 PM	Uhm, to my knowledge it's only a natural 20 that is an automatic hit, anything below that (even a threat) that doesn't hit the ac or above is useless. Hmm. I'm gonna check that out right now, b/c if that's true then that throws that idea out the window; I think I developled it after reading that a threatened crit was an auto-hit. Ok, I read the hypertext srd to confirm/disprove and what it says is the following: A 20 is an auto-hit; and a threatened crit An 18-20 or 15-20 on a wider threat range weapon must first 'hit' with that total roll then if that wider threat range roll does hit the target's AC you can roll to confirm a crit. Suddenly that makes wider crit range weapons.... useless compared to the weapons that you'd use instead of them (ie. higher overall damage, but tighter crit range). Then again I guess being able to crit anything with a 18-20 weapon with a 1% chance and a 4% chance with imp crit or keen [15-20 weapon] is pretty handy; and being able to hit anything with a 10% chance with a 18-20 weapon or 25% with a 15-20 weapon does seem like a bit much. I guess that this makes feats like power critical a lot more important; also, being able to stack Keen and Improved Critical isn't that big of a deal IMO in light of the fact that you have to be able to hit the target before you can roll to confirm the crit (so unless you can hit the target with an 11-20 you can't threaten a crit anyway). Which brings up a good question, why were Keen and Imp crit stopped from stacking? They just increased odds that you could crit, but nothing else, you still have to hit the target's AC and even if you do you have to roll again to confirm. Stacking Keen and Imp Crit: 18-20=3 Since the doubling of a number always applies to the base number, not stacks x2 + x2 = x3 3 x3 = 9 11-20
Judging Eagle 03-13-06, 05:43 PM	forget the Scimitars... i find the Glaive to be the best Dervish weapon by a longshot. you can easily dance at reach, do good damage, and dance away, all without having to Tumble or provoke! Or, take the Weapon Group (Chains) feat and use a spiked, wieghted and bladed chain to really abuse your dex mod (since all are finessable, or not if you want to be a really high str dervish and rely on the fact that they are all 2H weapons to get more damage done).
Daeger 03-13-06, 08:51 PM	Two sacred scabbards from Complete Warrior and Improved Critical (scimitar) is my recommendation for you. If you have two rounds of prep, autocritting 25% of the time against evil creatures is always nice.
ibayboy 03-14-06, 02:24 AM	Or, take the Weapon Group (Chains) feat and use a spiked, wieghted and bladed chain to really abuse your dex mod (since all are finessable, or not if you want to be a really high str dervish and rely on the fact that they are all 2H weapons to get more damage done). Can you tell me which book the weighted and bladed chains are in. Thanks
Gemcaster 03-14-06, 04:33 AM	+2 cold iron brilliant energy flaming burst scimitar(left hand) +3 adamantine holy thundering bastard sword(right hand) since dervish treats scimitars as light weapons its better if you only weild one in your off hand for better damage with your main hand by using a more powerful slashing weapon.
Raven113 03-14-06, 11:15 AM	+2 cold iron brilliant energy flaming burst scimitar(left hand) +3 adamantine holy thundering bastard sword(right hand) since dervish treats scimitars as light weapons its better if you only weild one in your off hand for better damage with your main hand by using a more powerful slashing weapon. Near true. I agree unless your doing a finesse build (which most dervishes are). With a 12 in strength (typical mid-level finesse build score) you'll be losing a huge chunk of your to-hit with your main weapon. Even if you try to keep your strength up, it'll still be around six lower than your dex, if it isn't then you should rethink your finesse build. Just my oppinion. If you are running a normal strength build, then this configuration is excellent (drop the weapon finesse and grab bastard sword...) Some books treat Katanas as finesseable, in which case you should consider that as a real option.
Arandar 03-14-06, 11:29 AM	Can you finesse the scimitar after it becomes treated as a Light weapon?
yuenglingdragon 03-14-06, 01:20 PM	Hells yeah. Thats very nearly the whole point. Sure it helps with TWF but finessing these babies is hard core.
aelryinth 03-14-06, 05:16 PM	Just remember that you can't Finesse and Power Attack at the same time. hence why a lot of builds use skirmish dice for the extra zing of dmg. ==Aelryinth
Jherid 03-14-06, 06:22 PM	No, you can finesse and power attack at the same time, you just can't power attack with light weapons.
Jaxgaret 03-14-06, 07:20 PM	Stacking Keen and Imp Crit: 18-20=3 Since the doubling of a number always applies to the base number, not stacks x2 + x2 = x3 3 x3 = 9 11-20 12-20.
Judging Eagle 03-14-06, 08:24 PM	12-20. Thank you. In any case, Keen and Imp Crit should be stacked, since it doesn't increase chance to hit, just to crit if you do actually hit the target. The reason they were changed is that most people figure crits wrong; hell even the DMs in Living Greyhawk (who DM tons and tons) have almost all made the assumption that a wider crit range weapon will 'hit' more often.
nodaisho 03-14-06, 11:07 PM	keen and imp crit dont stack. I think it is in PHB, if not, it is in DMG.
BjornBSQ 03-15-06, 01:19 AM	In any case, Keen and Imp Crit should be stacked, since it doesn't increase chance to hit, just to crit if you do actually hit the target. I tend to agree with you unfortunately 3.5 Raw has specifically nixed the two stacking. I understand the original reasoning was because of 3.0 Vorpal (Decapitate on any Critical) but then they also fixed Vorpal in 3.5 (decapitate on Nat 20 only) As to the original question I tend to stay away from Keen and take Blessed instead so that with the Improved Critical feat you have a 18-20 scimitar that auto confirms against evil. And the Power Critical feat helps with any critical reliant build. Then stack wounding and an element as you can afford it.
RavenDrake 03-15-06, 02:59 AM	No, you can finesse and power attack at the same time, you just can't power attack with light weapons. Yes... but if you're treating them as Light weapons to finesse them, then you can't power attack with them, now can you? As for enhancements: Wounding should be a priority(especially 3.5 wounding, which is so abusive it's not funny[My opinion only, ymmv]), as should effects that grant extra damage on hits, like the elemental properties. Adding Thundering is a good choice as well, as the extra damage on a crit(which, with Keen or Improved Critical, you should have lots of) can really add up.
Judging Eagle 03-15-06, 10:43 AM	keen and imp crit dont stack. I think it is in PHB, if not, it is in DMG. It doesn't matter what the Books say on this issue. They are wrong because the rule was changed -after- the problem that the rule was causing was fixed. A double fix does nothing since one problem (broken vorpal) was the real problem, not the smaller problem (K and IC stacking). The reason they changed them from "Stacking" to "No Stacking" was resolved almost immediatly when they went to 3.5 (Vorpal being broken; to Vorpal on a 20 only) also wider crit ranges mean nothing. If you can't hit on those lower rolls, you can't crit either. So Imp Crit + Keen means nothing since they don't do anything except increase your odds of getting a crit versus low-AC for your level monsters. Also, thanks BjornBSQ for naming Blessed... my neutral twf-er will need this to help kill the evil underdark dwellers as well as undead he'll be facing; and eventually his party members when they help the favoured soul become a lich. Hopefully I'll kill the FS first. Oh, Sacred strike is also nice, makes your SA's d6's d8's vs evil targets. Yes... but if you're treating them as Light weapons to finesse them, then you can't power attack with them, now can you? You can't treat them like anything but light weapons, so finessing is in, PAing's out. Dervish 1 = Scimitars effectively are light weapons for you. You can't choose to go back and forth, they're like a dagger or kukri for you now.
aelryinth 03-15-06, 01:56 PM	I'll weigh in here once...I'm of the belief that you can always choose not to use a class feature if need be (a Fist of Raziel doesn't HAVE to have every weapon he wields be Holy.) In the same manner, the Dervish could turn his class ability on or off, in much the same manner as if he didn't qualify for the PrC anymore and lost the class ability. So he can choose one or the other, not both. ===Aelryinth
Judging Eagle 03-15-06, 03:05 PM	I'll weigh in here once...I'm of the belief that you can always choose not to use a class feature if need be (a Fist of Raziel doesn't HAVE to have every weapon he wields be Holy.) In the same manner, the Dervish could turn his class ability on or off, in much the same manner as if he didn't qualify for the PrC anymore and lost the class ability. So he can choose one or the other, not both. ===Aelryinth True, you can't use them as both at the same time. So an str dervish isn't so bad. Power Attacking as a dervish seems sort of useless as a means to get more damage output, better just going for a 2H build instead.
concerro 03-15-06, 04:07 PM	Can you finesse the scimitar after it becomes treated as a Light weapon? yes, weapon finesse can be used with any light weapon
BjornBSQ 03-15-06, 05:33 PM	It doesn't matter what the Books say on this issue. They are wrong because the rule was changed -after- the problem that the rule was causing was fixed. A double fix does nothing since one problem (broken vorpal) was the real problem, not the smaller problem (K and IC stacking). Like I said before, I to think it was a stupid change and if your GM will allow it more power to you. I argued it with my GM and he went with RAW. Not that it mattered much, he changed weapon proficiencys around so I had to give up my Kurki's anyways. Blessed is a +1 power from BoED pg. 113 and if your DM allows BoED also check out Paralyzing it's a little underpowered since you get to reroll each round to shrug it off, but even 1 round of paralyzation could turn the tide of a fight.